She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[Arcanist]

This is what you're looking for.

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

I believe we are discussing the use of this a usable feature.

[Hanuman]

From my perspective alchemetrics is about convincing matter to be different matter, you could probably use intimidate to a similar degree.

The most flavorful fluff to expand upon that people will get is Full Metal Alchemist, or the EE minecraft mod which works similarly.

Something not covered is awareness in a lot of these cases, how do you know what materials are what, how do you find this out, how do you know what sunmetal is or even find that out.

Communicating with the elemental spirits is a simple answer by sensing what things are passively, eventually turning into Neo and seeing the world as little bits of alchemetrical code, another way is experimenting a little bit at a time but who has the time to do that when you're saving the world? Tough thing to balance, probably better to go with a "I TALK TO MATTER" thing.

Hell you could probably work in an object reading feature in there too à la gather informationy-diplomacy.

[Zireael]

I must say the idea is brilliant, even though I haven't had time to read through 32 pages of the thread.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, is the Apogineer going to have a city-based discovery for reference, as inappropriate as it would be fluff-wise?

[Arcanist]

Ladies and Gentlemen of all ages (and I mean ALL ages), I present you, The Chrononaut

Hopefully, you will enjoy it

[Milo v3]

Ladies and Gentlemen of all ages (and I mean ALL ages), I present you, The Chrononaut

Hopefully, you will enjoy it

Could you also post it here? For those who cannot view minmaxboards.

[Arcanist]

Could you also post it here? For those who cannot view minmaxboards.

Gladly

Spoiler

Show

The Chrononaut

"Time is money... Actually Time is the non-spatial continuum in which events occur linearly usually in the direction of increasing entropy"


image credit JessiBeans of deviantart.com

The Chrononaut are explorers first and foremost who explore not just singular locations in the multiverse, but multiple moments in that same multiverse. Most people spend their entire lives trying to find a Chrononaut only to never encounter one, however on rare occasions they select a very lucky person to travel with them throughout time and space.

Requirements: To become a Chrononaut you must meet all of the following requirements.
Gramarie: Any 2 YGGD & 2 ELDK Principles
Skills: Concentration 13 ranks, Forgery 13 ranks
Specialization: Must be specialized in Yggdratecture or Eldrikinetics

Hit Die: d4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifer

Class Skills: A Chrononaut's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

The Chrononaut
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Principles

1st|

+0

|

+2

|

+0

|

+2

|Yggdrakinetic Applications, Journey (To, but not from)|+0|

2nd|

+1

|

+3

|

+0

|

+3

|Journey (From, but not to), ETT (Full-Round action)|+1|

3rd|

+1

|

+3

|

+1

|

+3

|Journey (Stasis), ETT (Standard Action)|+2|

4th|

+2

|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|Journey (Anywhere in between), ETT (Move action), Doctorate principles|+3|

5th|

+2

|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|Journey (Dawn of Time), ETT (Immediate action), Temporal Casualty|+4|[/table]

All of the following are class features of the Chrononaut.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: As a Chrononaut, you gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Yggdrakinetic Application: A Chononaut specializes in the transportation of objects and people across time and space, through the combined applications of Yggdratecture Semi-spaces and Eldrikinetic Engines. Upon entering this prestige class you are treated as if you specialized in both Yggdratecture and Eldrikinetics disciplines, can select specialist and doctorate level principles from either of these disciplines. In addition to this, at 1st, 3rd and 5th level you gain access to one bonus principle that must be spent on either an Eldrikinetic or Yggdratecture principle.

Journey (Su): A Chrononaut's particular research into Eldrikinetic Engines and Yggratecture Semi-space finally enlightens them to discover a cheap and effective method of travel to anywhere... or when...

• At 1st level, you discover an interesting feature of Semi-Space. By applying a certain level of push to an object and sending it through a Semi-space you can generate enough energy to delay that objects arrival by a number of rounds equal to the amount of push generated from the object. This creates a Time Leaping Semi-Space. Objects can be delayed in arrival by 1 round for every 100 push. Living creatures may not enter a Time Leaping Semi-Space.
• At 2nd level, you make a more significant change to your body allowing you to enter a Time Leaping Semi-Space, however now objects and yourself can be delayed by hours at the same rate. (1 hour per 100 push).[/li]
• At 3rd level, you learn how to create a special kind of Semi-space that exist outside of time. You are treated as if you are in a Timeless plane while here. Time continues to move outside of the semi-space thereafter. 1 round of apparent time inside the Timeless Semi-Space is treated as 1 year on the tethered plane. A Timeless Semi-Space is an bound to a fixed point. It may also be moved around via the use of an Orthogonal Engine and the use of Polarcane Geometry to adjust it's directional motion. While you are inside this Timeless Semi-Space you may not prepare any Principles, also a Timeless Semi-Space may only be opened and closed by the creating Chrononaut and anyone else he/she designates.
• At 4th level, you make an astounding discovery in the field of Yggdratecture and Eldrikinetic temporal applications gaining a mastery over 4th dimensional perception. You become able to travel along the fine lines of the Time-Space continuum allowing you to reverse the effects of a Timeless Semi-Space. You may now adjust a Timeless Semi-space or a Time Leaping Semi-Space to reverse the flow of time around the plane that it is tethered to at the same rate as moving forward. You may not, however travel to the beginning of time. Any attempt to do so results in the Timeless Semi-Space cycling back to the Chrononauts original time (that is the following round after they first stepped into their Timeless Semi-Space). In addition to this, by cleaver application of a Two-Part Engine (Orthogonal-Submerging) and the use of the subjective gravity of Polarcane Geometry you can produce a much more faster moving Timeless Semi-Space. In addition to this you may also send a Timeless Semi-Space through a Time Leaping Semi-Space for a more accurate fix on what time you would be traveling to. In effect you can also choose the year, day, hour and minute of your destination.
• At 5th level, No section of time is forbidden to you. Stepping into your Timeless Semi-Space allows you to choose anywhere and when you'd like to travel to by simply thinking of that time and that place. The Timeless Semi-Space creates an Incongruous Pathway to the desired location. In addition to this you are granted access to the Dawn of Time and become able to access the raw elements of time.

Time Paradoxes
Traveling through time often has may perils as even the tiniest event can drastically change an entire timeline, so to adjust for that the Chrononauts Time Leaping Semi-Space and Timeless Semi-space are equipped with a small device called a Paradox Machine. A Paradox Machine allows the Chrononaut to enter any particular section of time and space without causing to much of an effect. In essence it tethers the Chrononaut to a specific section of reality, more specifically their native section of reality allowing them to perform as much change as they'd like without any real consequences to their timeline. The traveling of Chrononauts are what cause and create many alternate realities. It is impossible to remove or destroy a Paradox Machine from a Timeless Semi-Space as well as a Time-Leaping Semi-Space.

ETT (Emergency Temporal Teleport) (Su): Time Traveling is dangerous work and adventuring while time traveling is even more dangerous (for obvious reasons), thus at 2nd level you develop a technique that allows you to escape a situation that would prove too lethal for you to endure. Once per day of subjective time (24 hours for you) you may eject yourself from a foreign timeline to your original timeline (that is the time you originate from before you traveled). At 2nd level you may perform this as a Full-Round Action, at 3rd level this becomes a Standard Action, at 4th this becomes a Move Action and finally at 5th level this becomes an Immediate Action.

Temporal Causality (Ex): By using the power of the Timeless Semi-Space in conjuncture with the Time Leaping Semi-Space you can travel to the precise moment that Time began. Being exposed to the Cosmic effects of raw Time and endless potential drastically changes you. You cease to age and become immune to any and all penalties of aging, however you still continue to gain benefits for a high age category for your race. When a Chrononaut dies he has the option to make a new character with a few restrictions. First, the newly made character has the exact same levels, skills, ability scores and race as the previous character, although details such as height, weight and even gender do not have to be constant and secondly the Chrononaut is fatigued and cannot perform this again until he gets 8 hours of subjective rest.

[Milo v3]

After that, my first instinct is to figure out how to make a sonic screw driver with Gramarie.

[radmelon]

After that, my first instinct is to figure out how to make a sonic screw driver with Gramarie.

Diddle that, I'm making a biollurgic Dalek!

[Milo v3]

Diddle that, I'm making a biollurgic Dalek!

Daleks are already in D&D, Clockwork Horrors.

[radmelon]

Daleks are already in D&D, Clockwork Horrors.

Dang it, I already knew that . In that case, I use imachination to make the Silence. Or something. I really can't remember...

[Arcanist]

Daleks are already in D&D, Clockwork Horrors.

He's right you know I do feel bad considering one time I sicked 5 Adamantine Clockwork Horrors (Fluff be damned!) on my players having them scream "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!" as loud as possible

On a side note: I'm not sure Gramarie can be used to make a Sonic Screwdriver... Of course this is assuming that a Single SilverOut can only have 1 spell in it

EDIT: I want to make Cybermen (Post-Revamp) out of Biollurgy, but it's hard to make it so that they can only use Gramarie to reproduce

[radmelon]

The Sonic Screwdriver uses prestidigitation heightened to 9th level. That's what I say.

[Durazno]

I always thought that the Beholders were more like Daleks. You know, eyestalks, death rays, extreme xenophobia, prone to genetic meddling and grotesquely enslaving "lesser" species...

[Gideon Falcon]

So, I've got an idea for an Ozodrin Grammarist PrC, but I don't have everything figured out. So far, the main issue is having an ability for each of the gramaric disciplines. This is what I've got figured out so far:

ALCH: Probably some sort of ability to count your natural weapons as various special materials.

ARCD: I'm thinking some sort of flesh augment that uses filtering flesh as an input transformer, and possibly have some way of incorporating an output.

BIOY: One possibility is having a way to turn puissance into temporary Form Points, but it would be difficult to keep it from spiralling out of control. Applying Biollurgy principles to spawn might work, as might putting features onto chassis.

ELDK: This would most likely involve using puissance to fuel Strange Movement, and/or vice versa.

GEOC: This would either involve becoming a geoccult pole yourself or having poles in your stomachs.

HEUR: This is the easiest one, just having spawn become circuit elements.

IMCH: This is probably the second hardest one. Phantasm illusions and/or fear effects would probably be the most appropriate.

KALD: This is the real hard one. All I can think of is some sort of bonus to filtering flesh.

YGGD: Probably just expand the size of your stomachs, and connect mouths to semi-spaces.

The capstone would grant the Aberrant Construct subtype from chumplump's half-wrought horror monster class. Most of the formatting will borrow from Sir Percival's Ayuscientist.

[Necroticplague]

So, I've got an idea for an Ozodrin Grammarist PrC, but I don't have everything figured out. So far, the main issue is having an ability for each of the gramaric disciplines. This is what I've got figured out so far:

ALCH: Probably some sort of ability to count your natural weapons as various special materials.

ARCD: I'm thinking some sort of flesh augment that uses filtering flesh as an input transformer, and possibly have some way of incorporating an output.

BIOY: One possibility is having a way to turn puissance into temporary Form Points, but it would be difficult to keep it from spiralling out of control. Applying Biollurgy principles to spawn might work, as might putting features onto chassis.

ELDK: This would most likely involve using puissance to fuel Strange Movement, and/or vice versa.

GEOC: This would either involve becoming a geoccult pole yourself or having poles in your stomachs.

HEUR: This is the easiest one, just having spawn become circuit elements.

IMCH: This is probably the second hardest one. Phantasm illusions and/or fear effects would probably be the most appropriate.

KALD: This is the real hard one. All I can think of is some sort of bonus to filtering flesh.

YGGD: Probably just expand the size of your stomachs, and connect mouths to semi-spaces.

The capstone would grant the Aberrant Construct subtype from chumplump's half-wrought horror monster class. Most of the formatting will borrow from Sir Percival's Ayuscientist.

Are you looking for independent features, or would unlocking new features work as well?

Just some possible suggestions on my own on this front:

KALD:
Chromatic Flesh: gain benefit related to a prepared filter (i.e, a red filter makes you immune/resistant to cold and fire, an orange filter makes you immune/resistant to inhaled poisons and other gas-based effects (nauseous cloud, thick fog). Each flesh you have may only have one filter applied to it, and you may only benefit from one chromatic flesh at a time (however, if you have multiple chromatic fleshes of different types, you can switch between them as a swift action).

IMCH:
Dual-Natured Illusions:Your dabbling in how exactly the mind can be effected by things unreal makes viewing you or you illusions a dangerous prospect. You gain the benefits of the Live My Nightmare feat, and any of your illusions created by an IMCH principal also trigger this effect. In addition, all illusions created by your IMCH principles are treated as being depictions of yourself, regardless of what they actually are. When you switch to your true nature, anyone who fails their will save against fear is then affected as if by an illusion spell of the phantasm subschool of no higher than 1/2 your ECL of your choice (chosen at time of manifesting true nature, everyone who fails save at that time is effected by the same spell).

GEOC:
My Domain is my Body: While within an bubble created by a geooccult pole you created, you may place features on terrain features created by you. The features for the most part are as you. They share your statistics, except for the fact that they are the size of the feature instead of your size (for features that don't have listed sizes, such as eyes and special eyes, assume they are Fine).You maintain your connection to your features placed in this manner, so your action is still are used to make them work, and you can still sense through features that provide senses (note:all features have a sense of touch as a minimum). You still use the features perfectly fine, regardless of distance (for example, you could make a full-round attack where you spit using the mouth on your body, shoot quills using a patch of spikes 30 ft away, while having a tentacle 400 feet away grappling someone else). Features not on your own body that are grappling, or otherwise disabled, do not effect you, though the feature is effected. However, you do take any HP damage inflicted upon your features (unless it is a feature that has its own pool of HP, like probes, spawn, or beasts). Skins do not exists on their own, they are applied to an object or placed feature, which then benefits from the skin applied.
[holy tar, that one was longer than I intended it to be, was thinking of maybe a way to turn placed features into terrain features, but that seemed like a bit much]

ARCD:
Pussiant Body:You may form skins with the Voltaic Flesh augment

Spoiler

Show

Voltaic Flesh: Additional Cost ???
Require ???: A flesh with this augment may hold a number of ebbs equal to your CHA mod. This augmet may only be applied to a skin once. Any affects of the flesh that would produce nourishment (e.x., Energy Consuming Flesh, Magic Eating Flesh) may instead at you option produce one ebb per pound of food/gallon of water the nourishment is considered. If the flesh is also a Regenerative flesh, you may use one ebb in place of a pound of food.You may use up one ebb to be considered to have consumed a pound of food and drank a gallon of water for purposes of avoiding dehydration and starvation. Multiple Voltaic Flesh do stack when determining total capacity, but you cannot use up ebbs from more than one voltaic flesh in a round (you're free to absorb ebbs to multiple Voltaic Flesh in a round, however).

[Amechra]

The setting-building thread over on Minmaxboards is inaccessable, due to the site being down, so...

Once we're off talking about currency, there is the issue that, in this setting, there is going to be a massive underclass; seriously, a single Grammarist can, in a half hour, do more labor than, literally, a thousand people. It's the Industrial Revolution all over again... only considerably worse, since Grammarists can cover all unskilled labor. And there is never going to be a large enough demand for specialized labor to allow an entire population to sustain themselves on just that, without devaluing that labor to valuelessness.

In fact, let's step away from Eberron, and just look at what wide-spread Grammarie would result in, especially if access to it was limited by monetary access.

It would result in a world of crushing property, with a tiny middle class and an upper class that will pretty much always be on top. Occasionally, the large poor class will generate a Grammarist powerful enough to join the higher classes, or a skilled laborer, but other than that, the amount of class mobility that exists is almost nonexistent.

I can see the world being on the edge of revolution constantly, with almost constant bread-and-circuses for the lower class; alternatively, and more bleakly, murder of the lower class wouldn't be illegal at all, since it would allow them to be raised as Zombies, which are about as useful labor-wise, and don't need to be fed, don't need vacations and don't sleep.

I can see religion just turning into the opiate of the masses; hell, it would probably boil down to worshiping the very Grammarie that rendered them obsolete. Their very worship would fuel PlatinumIn transformers, fueling godless machines with the faith of the poor. In fact, that would probably be the only reason to keep the poor around, at least until someone thinks of designing Sentient Chassis with the Instinct to sincerely believe in <insert name of religion>, which I'm pretty sure can be done within the rules.

There would be a momentary brightness in the form of adventurers (being a potent warrior or having Psionics is an excellent way to level the playing field), but if they try to equalize the situation in the world, they would run into the upper class, who would probably annihilate them for daring to touch their exalted station. Considering the kind of weaponry that Grammarie can produce, who cares if you can read minds if they can just shove you in a Cursed Lead cell and then shoot you.

The rich would be effectively immortal, only dying from severe injury, and would have homes that would probably have rooms in several cities and other such luxuries. Unchallenged, they would probably wage war for fun.

A world with advanced Grammarie is pretty much one of the bleakest places I can imagine.

I know that you'd argue that this wouldn't happen, but, when you get down to it, power usually calls more powerfully than morality does, and it's just more efficient this way.

[General Patton]

I think an easy resolution to that would be a good-aligned/holy prestige class for grammarie. Right now, everything is neutral or kind of shady (Contractor). Something extra potent for the righteous would help to produce a decent post-scarcity society.

[Amechra]

The thing is that having Good-based PrCs wouldn't address the basic reasons for the class distinctions I talked about.

Which is that the entire lower class is completely obsolete; there's no job that can be done by the lower class that couldn't be done better by a custom creature designed through Biollurgy, or by a Deadsnow Zombie (unless you can't just design a creature whose purpose is to worship things to fuel PlatinumIns...) Yes, this includes prostitution. And all of the other ways that lower classes have tended to use to support themselves with.

As long as Spectroconstruction exists, there are going to be millions without jobs.

Sure, there are going to be bleeding-heart people that would clothe and feed the poor, but even in the best case scenario, the rich and the poor would be lying around doing almost nothing, since the poor in a Grammaric society aren't useful for anything except for being a group to feel pity for.

[radmelon]

Perhaps spectroconstruction needs to be turned down or something, because the only things I can think of the lower classes being used for are:

a)Matrix-eque ebb sources,
b)raw materials,
c)prospective gramarists.

[Draken]

The lower classes could also provide manpower for extended projects that can't feasibly be accelerated, where any respectable gramarist would probably prefer to not be assed to get off his workshop/couch/dinning table/bed/opium den on a daily or bihourly basis to setup spectroconstruction, such as agriculture and pecuary.

And no, agriculture and pecuary would most likely not die in the name of efficiency because yay, SilverOuts of Create Food. Humans are petty, and if they aren't, then your initial bleak assumption doesn't work either. Humans are petty, lazy and greedy and we like the good things of life.

Getting off your behind every twice an hour to get some crappy off-project running and eating flavored gruel on a daily basis directly clash with two of these characteristics I listed above.

While the world created by gramarie is, indeed, quite bleak, odds are it wouldn't involve the majority of the population being reduced to cattle. Despite common game system assumtions, classed individuals more often than not don't spontaneously rise from the dirty masses, they are trained in some fashion.

So what would happen, more likely than not, is that the gramaric (and mystic, and etc) upper class would setup a system to take care of the unwashed masses, certainly involving E.I.s to deal with them, sort them, shelter them, educate them, identify the ones who can become something and send the rest to work the same miserable little jobs they would have done in a gramarie-less world.They will grow food and brew drinks (not for themselves, but for the nearest feudal lord or whatever ruling system crops up, but more likely than not some sort of urban feudalism). They will sew clothes (for themselves), they would wash their slums, they would serve in the homes of the rich, they would turn to prostitution or crime or whatever. Overall, it would look like your average dark ages dunghole.

Just... You know... surrounding a shining city built on magic, and probably with a better education system mantained mostly by magical robots (simply because any education system beats no education system).

Really. Biollurgy can't create anything that is actually better at any given job, crft or even whoring out than a mildly trained humanoid (professions and crafts here, chassis never get positive mods to int, wis or cha), and the gramarists don't even have to do the training themselves, they can set up the trainers and just keep a close enough eye on them to avoid a machine revolution or whatever.

In fact, since gramarie never relies on basic crafts and professions, the gramaric world would likely still have use for men and women with those skills. You have better things to do than learn how to sew or how to cook or how to do a hundred other things that are frankly too tiny to waste Spectoconstruction on and too much of a hassle to stop building the wonders of magitechnology for.

That needs emphasis, of course.

Spectoconstruction lasts all of half a hour. And there is a lot than can't be done in half a hour, no matter how much manpower you drop on it.

But, then again. It is entirelly too likely that Spectoconstruction does too much for too little. It demands one Knowledge skill to... Nulify the need for pretty much all Crafts? Heck, not even the highest level magic can do that. True Creation (emphasis, of a different type) still requires a craft check for complex things.

But really, it is more a case of the rich get richer and the poor get mildly less poor, but not really any better overall. Not a case of the rich get richer and the poor are now things, as opposed to just opressed and miserable.

[Necroticplague]

Really. Biollurgy can't create anything that is actually better at any given job, craft or even whoring out than a mildly trained humanoid (professions and crafts here, chassis never get positive mods to int, wis or cha), and the gramarists don't even have to do the training themselves, they can set up the trainers and just keep a close enough eye on them to avoid a machine revolution or whatever.

Except for the fact that while the chassis themselves can't get positive mods, EIs can. And the chassis can be made to simply act as "hands" of the vast EI "brain." In fact, and EI with a small amount of bodies would be more efficient than the same amount of humans working because 1: the bodies can be specially modified for the purpose, and 2:no communication is needed, since its all one mind.

[Omnicrat]

I'm pretty sure I've pointed this out before, though maybe that was just in a campaign specific thread. A party of 4 (minimum) with the right specializations and PrC abilities can create a self-replicating infinity growing utopia machine. Granted, for the full effect, you need to hit level 17 minimum, but its very doable. Synopisi: Self-replicating Heuristic-intelligence EIed Chassis transformers for all medical, food, communication, and entertainment needs; carmot foundries controlled by EIs using wall of iron spellouts as the source matter; personal demiplanes for habitation (now with a city biome, I guess); a massive power plant demiplane controled by an EI; have it all done by some hand-crafted LG EI Gramarists given very specific reproduction programing so that all EIs are LG and will not in any way harm the system (clearly worded better).

The thing is that having Good-based PrCs wouldn't address the basic reasons for the class distinctions I talked about.

Which is that the entire lower class is completely obsolete; there's no job that can be done by the lower class that couldn't be done better by a custom creature designed through Biollurgy, or by a Deadsnow Zombie (unless you can't just design a creature whose purpose is to worship things to fuel PlatinumIns...) Yes, this includes prostitution. And all of the other ways that lower classes have tended to use to support themselves with.

As long as Spectroconstruction exists, there are going to be millions without jobs.

Sure, there are going to be bleeding-heart people that would clothe and feed the poor, but even in the best case scenario, the rich and the poor would be lying around doing almost nothing, since the poor in a Grammaric society aren't useful for anything except for being a group to feel pity for.

Philosophy and self discovery. Art. Debate.

Even if 99,999 out of 100,000 in my system sit around all day doing nothing but playing videogame analogues and watching the youtube analogue, that still lets the one do anything they desire. From that great things will come. Also, my system is classes (socio-economically).

The lower classes could also provide manpower for extended projects that can't feasibly be accelerated, where any respectable gramarist would probably prefer to not be assed to get off his workshop/couch/dinning table/bed/opium den on a daily or bihourly basis to setup spectroconstruction, such as agriculture and pecuary.

And no, agriculture and pecuary would most likely not die in the name of efficiency because yay, SilverOuts of Create Food. Humans are petty, and if they aren't, then your initial bleak assumption doesn't work either. Humans are petty, lazy and greedy and we like the good things of life.

Getting off your behind every twice an hour to get some crappy off-project running and eating flavored gruel on a daily basis directly clash with two of these characteristics I listed above.

While the world created by gramarie is, indeed, quite bleak, odds are it wouldn't involve the majority of the population being reduced to cattle. Despite common game system assumtions, classed individuals more often than not don't spontaneously rise from the dirty masses, they are trained in some fashion.

So what would happen, more likely than not, is that the gramaric (and mystic, and etc) upper class would setup a system to take care of the unwashed masses, certainly involving E.I.s to deal with them, sort them, shelter them, educate them, identify the ones who can become something and send the rest to work the same miserable little jobs they would have done in a gramarie-less world.They will grow food and brew drinks (not for themselves, but for the nearest feudal lord or whatever ruling system crops up, but more likely than not some sort of urban feudalism). They will sew clothes (for themselves), they would wash their slums, they would serve in the homes of the rich, they would turn to prostitution or crime or whatever. Overall, it would look like your average dark ages dunghole.

Just... You know... surrounding a shining city built on magic, and probably with a better education system mantained mostly by magical robots (simply because any education system beats no education system).

Really. Biollurgy can't create anything that is actually better at any given job, crft or even whoring out than a mildly trained humanoid (professions and crafts here, chassis never get positive mods to int, wis or cha), and the gramarists don't even have to do the training themselves, they can set up the trainers and just keep a close enough eye on them to avoid a machine revolution or whatever.

In fact, since gramarie never relies on basic crafts and professions, the gramaric world would likely still have use for men and women with those skills. You have better things to do than learn how to sew or how to cook or how to do a hundred other things that are frankly too tiny to waste Spectoconstruction on and too much of a hassle to stop building the wonders of magitechnology for.

That needs emphasis, of course.

Spectoconstruction lasts all of half a hour. And there is a lot than can't be done in half a hour, no matter how much manpower you drop on it.

But, then again. It is entirelly too likely that Spectoconstruction does too much for too little. It demands one Knowledge skill to... Nulify the need for pretty much all Crafts? Heck, not even the highest level magic can do that. True Creation (emphasis, of a different type) still requires a craft check for complex things.

But really, it is more a case of the rich get richer and the poor get mildly less poor, but not really any better overall. Not a case of the rich get richer and the poor are now things, as opposed to just opressed and miserable.

1) Silverouts can also give you Feast of Champions for 3 meals a day. Flavored gruel is a first level trick. And, if you don't want such a high ebb cost, your telling me you can't make a spell around (spell) level 4 (maybe 5) equal to a food replicator?

2) My system for why its not so bleak.

[Omnicrat]

doublepost

[Draken]

Except for the fact that while the chassis themselves can't get positive mods, EIs can. And the chassis can be made to simply act as "hands" of the vast EI "brain." In fact, and EI with a small amount of bodies would be more efficient than the same amount of humans working because 1: the bodies can be specially modified for the purpose, and 2:no communication is needed, since its all one mind.

Fair, but the central point stands.

Why bother.

Seriously. Past the point of setting E.I. overseers, all else is driven by ADHD. And xenoalchemy grafts can't really make the chassises (or whatever the plural is) particularly better than human(oid)s at anything other than fighting and hauling cargo, so that is an added layer of needless hassle.

It is kind of sad that none of the arguments in this discussion appeal to basic human decency. And I'm not even talking about being good aligned, I am talking about not being Psychotic Evil.

Because even standard Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Evil would probably get some kicks out of the opressive state without going out of its way to make human resources more literal than it needs to be.

[Omnicrat]

It is kind of sad that none of the arguments in this discussion appeal to basic human decency. And I'm not even talking about being good aligned, I am talking about not being Psychotic Evil.

Mine system does that. I mean, most evil people want what is best for them, and what is better than a personal demiplane and all the luxury you could ever want? In fact, I came up with that system for an evil character. He was going to have people worship him till he became a god, then kill all the other gods (with science!). Saddly, this game was not to be, so I took out the limitation to Followers of Ycar, removed the Big Brother telescreen aspect, and its distopia to utopia!

[Necroticplague]

Why bother.

Easy, more efficient, cheaper labor is highly advantageous to whoever it belongs to. Just like how in real life, during industrial revolutions, massive amount of people loose their jobs because machines can do it better, or at least just as well, but for less, and you don't have to worry about them getting sick, not as likely to break, and can be fixed quicker (plus, machines don't have emotional crises, strike, come to work drunk,or realize how much their job bites). Machines in real life don't have as many advantages as what could be gained with grammary. And they STILL manage to edge out a whole ton of unskilled labor. And this system is better as edging out unskilled, and the EIs mean you can edge out skilled labor as well. It takes time and money to set up, but so do machines in real life, one of the big reasons they haven't completely edged out unskilled labor.

[Amechra]

I was basing my entire idea off the fact that, at least in our world, we could easily feed everyone, in fact we could feed the entire world populace, clothe them, give them clean water, give them access to adequate medical care...

We just don't bother.

If you notice, near the top of my post, I said that this is assuming that access to Grammarie (and Grammarie's outputs) is restricted monetarily. If not, sure, have your utopia.

But remember that LG doesn't mean "bleeding heart, with heart full of charity." And people who get to 17th level tend not to be, if you go by RAW (you get experience by killing things. Unless those "things" were all unintelligent undead or constructs, you're a mass murderer, meaning any Zeitgeist that you set up is going to tag you as a criminal. Now, story based XP on the other hand...)

[Arcanist]

Spoiler'd due to length
=>Wonderful/Nightmarish World of Gramarie

Spoiler

Show

The setting-building thread over on Minmaxboards is inaccessable, due to the site being down, so...

Once we're off talking about currency, there is the issue that, in this setting, there is going to be a massive underclass; seriously, a single Grammarist can, in a half hour, do more labor than, literally, a thousand people. It's the Industrial Revolution all over again... only considerably worse, since Grammarists can cover all unskilled labor. And there is never going to be a large enough demand for specialized labor to allow an entire population to sustain themselves on just that, without devaluing that labor to valuelessness.

Did you see the post I made about not using physical labor for currency or "power"? I offered the alternative of using materials that cannot be replicated by gramarie. The Material I proposed was Adamantine as a base which looks quite different from Platinum, Gold, Silver and Copper. I was going to suggest using a system based around Starmetal, Adamantine, Electum and ... Something else

In fact, let's step away from Eberron, and just look at what wide-spread Grammarie would result in, especially if access to it was limited by monetary access.

Gladly

It would result in a world of crushing property, with a tiny middle class and an upper class that will pretty much always be on top. Occasionally, the large poor class will generate a Grammarist powerful enough to join the higher classes, or a skilled laborer, but other than that, the amount of class mobility that exists is almost nonexistent.

In a world of D&D, I don't exactly expect for any form of Middle Class to exist. In this world you are either Rich or Poor. Not the ideal way to live, but living none the less. You COULD hire the lower class as unskilled burly henchmen, but they can easily be replaced by 2-3 hours of work in a Lab... Unfortunately, if you are poor you have two options, live a life as a Commoner, or live a life as an Adventurer with hopes of one day gaining enough money to live a life of luxury.

Being poor isn't easy... It never really is in any setting (and even the real world).

I can see the world being on the edge of revolution constantly, with almost constant bread-and-circuses for the lower class; alternatively, and more bleakly, murder of the lower class wouldn't be illegal at all, since it would allow them to be raised as Zombies, which are about as useful labor-wise, and don't need to be fed, don't need vacations and don't sleep.

In this setting, not everyone can perform Gramarie, sure in schools you learn about the basics, but that doesn't precisely mean you know how to implement it all. It's like... Most people in School learn Physics, but not everyone becomes a Physicist... It's all about people actually putting in the work to do it

Not quite the point, however If everyone thinks to themself "Hey, If I pick up Gramarie, I can accomplish my goals in no time!", but the problem is most people realize "Oh crap... This is harder then I thought... Eh... I'll just go pick up that sword...", however if everyone is in fact capable of being a Gramarist, then we can have a little Class Warfare between the Rich and Poor as Kellus describes a Doctorate level campaign or "Doomsday Magitek"

The final level of tech is pretty extreme; I call it "doomsday magitek". This is a post-scarcity, post-everything setting. It's pretty nuts, but then, it only exists when the population is 14th level and higher, so yeah. Anything you can imagine is pretty much possible here, from building artificial intelligences to manage a demiplane, to flying island fortresses that jump between Planes and bring their citizenry with them in giant alternate-dimension prisons that they use to power their nuclear weapons. I reserve this level of tech for PCs that make it to that point and want to have some high-level fun, or for extraplanar societies that are explicitly supposed to be lightyears more advanced than the Material Plane. This is seriously crazy-town, and is just incredible as a toolkit for a clever DM. This is the stuff that you can use to actually show how the magical empire operates, while still having the rules to allow PCs to interact with it. This is why you're here.

But the interesting thing about this campaign is that it isn't exactly a perfect hit for a Doomsday campaign setting since more or less, they only have 8 known people in the world that were ever capable of creating Doctorate level Principles and half of them are dead, usually by there own mechanization (There is a 14th level Gramarist in the world, that went insane due an interaction with his own Imachination and seemingly lost touch with reality as a result so it's technically 3 Gramarist that aren't dead or insane) Each one possessing an advanced knowledge of there own particular specialization, but that is more to a specific setting really... I have no say in how someone else sets up there own campaign setting

But lemme just add this here...

Basically, there are a lot of possibilities with this system, but that's not a bad thing. It's sort of an equalizer between the DM and the players. Players have access to abilities which can cause permanent, visible changes in the world, but the DM has all of the same tools to construct a setting around. However you use it, just remember to have fun!

So as long as you have a DM with enough wit to tell the players where the Line gets drawn, everything should be cool and magitek-y

I can see religion just turning into the opiate of the masses; hell, it would probably boil down to worshiping the very Grammarie that rendered them obsolete. Their very worship would fuel PlatinumIn transformers, fueling godless machines with the faith of the poor. In fact, that would probably be the only reason to keep the poor around, at least until someone thinks of designing Sentient Chassis with the Instinct to sincerely believe in <insert name of religion>, which I'm pretty sure can be done within the rules.

On a side note, that is kind of your fault... JUST SAYIN and in my setting, most religions are against the use of Platinum Transformers because it hampers the belief of a Worshiper... It's like "All my prayers are good for is making this ship go forward... If that is true... Why am I still praying?". People lose faith when they realize that there faith isn't helping them. There prayers are being ignored or unheard of and it is because of that god forsaken Platinum Transformer! They should destroy that Transformer... How dare it disconnect them from there deity! and so you have a bunch of Clerics charging a Gramarist compound to kill the Gramarist inside actually and destroy the Transformer

I'd just make the Chassis sentient and convince them to worship Gramarie in a church with a PlatinumIn on that note... JUST SAYING~

There would be a momentary brightness in the form of adventurers (being a potent warrior or having Psionics is an excellent way to level the playing field), but if they try to equalize the situation in the world, they would run into the upper class, who would probably annihilate them for daring to touch their exalted station. Considering the kind of weaponry that Grammarie can produce, who cares if you can read minds if they can just shove you in a Cursed Lead cell and then shoot you.

Ah, here is where you get me... You see in my campaign, prisons are strictly made of Cursed Lead (and we're using transparency on that note). But now you have to ask yourself this: How does the Government get Superman into a cage of Kryptonite?

I like it really... Fighting a Gramarist is only a problem if they don't have constant access to all there stuff... SURE! They can have anything they need, but what are the odds of them having an item for every situation? It's like the Artificer really... IT CAN have every tool it would ever need, but from a practical point of view it really wouldn't

The rich would be effectively immortal, only dying from severe injury, and would have homes that would probably have rooms in several cities and other such luxuries. Unchallenged, they would probably wage war for fun.

On a personal note: I would wage war for fun.

Now, a super-important point to make here which I touched on in the renaissance section is that the level of the PCs is not the same as the tech level of the setting. Any particular player character is limited by both his particular field of study (remember that a lot of the coolest tricks are Specialist only) and his time that he can invest. As a DM you're totally in control of how much time the PCs have to invent, practice, and explore the options that this system allows. Just because a player character has doctorate level principles doesn't mean your setting will implode, because there's only so much that one PC working on his own can do with this system. Massive societal changes require groups of high-level gramarists working together to get huge stuff accomplished.

The Gramarist are challenged by the world in the form of Psionics. I remember having a discussion with Psyren on the idea of why Psionics was created? and why was it so prevolent with the Mindflayers? 4th Edition Fluff suggest that the Multiverse created Psionics to combat the creatures of the Far Realm and other Aberrations... But that is hardly the point... The point is, is that in addition to what another fine poster(s) mentioned. It's not all about Altruism and self-sacrifice for a world to become a Utopia, sometimes it's Apathy that creates a Utopia, sometimes it's it's just a desire to make the world 10 times awesome...

Not all Gramarist think like the Netherese

A world with advanced Grammarie is pretty much one of the bleakest places I can imagine.

If the Gramarist in your world are all douchbags, then it is Gramarie isn't absolute power, sure it is power and is therefore corruptible, but like Absolute power there isn't an absolute chance that it will absolutely corrupt. Kind of why I don't like that saying... It implies a 100% chance of a scenario occurring... BUT THAT IS JUST ME

I know that you'd argue that this wouldn't happen, but, when you get down to it, power usually calls more powerfully than morality does, and it's just more efficient this way.

To be more correct, personal interest pulls more then power does. Power, is a means to an end, and your goals (whatever they may be) is that end.

It's like when people wish for money... It never makes sense to me really... why don't you wish to rule the world and cut out the middle man?

Meh...

EDIT: the United States by itself, produces enough food to end world hunger, if it REALLY tried, you know why we don't? Because a cure doesn't make any money... This makes me think about Star Trek... They have replicator based technology meaning that food and money have no value. All they do is travel for the advancement of there own species (the Humans). Once you get Replicator based technology people cease to have to worry about there next meal, life stops being about surviving to the next day and it allows people to start Thinking... Needless to say, the Villain in me finds the thought of everyone having the option of thought is frightening... What if they think about killing me? ... Just a thought really

[Volthawk]

But remember that LG doesn't mean "bleeding heart, with heart full of charity." And people who get to 17th level tend not to be, if you go by RAW (you get experience by killing things. Unless those "things" were all unintelligent undead or constructs, you're a mass murderer, meaning any Zeitgeist that you set up is going to tag you as a criminal. Now, story based XP on the other hand...)

You get XP for overcoming challenges, not killing. It's just that setting things up so that it goes into 'you kill lots of things, you get lots of xp' is a pretty easy, standard way of doing things, but by no means is the only way of doing things.