The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]

[Lix Lorn]

They both apply a massive chunk of LA, so I honestly wouldn't mind that much. It'd be strong in gestalt, but many things are. Six character levels lost in exchange for your CL/2 HD. It's not a BAD trade, but... it's a trade you'd want to think about.

[Network]

And then they embrace powerful NPCs...

What about this :

Spoiler

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This ability can't increase the creature HD beyond what would be allowed for the Swarmlord. If the HD limit of the Swarmlord increase, the Swarmling receives the bonus HD it missed.

[Lix Lorn]

And then they embrace powerful NPCs...

What about this :

Spoiler

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This ability can't increase the creature HD beyond what would be allowed for the Swarmlord. If the HD limit of the Swarmlord increase, the Swarmling receives the bonus HD it missed.

...who are under no obligation to do what they say. At all.

[Mystic Muse]

Lix, would you mind if I used some stuff in your class as inspiration for my own lord of the swarm monster class?

[Lix Lorn]

Go ahead. xD

[Erik Vale]

Thoughts from a player:

A note needs to be made under the increase HD for evolution points that no additional evolution points are granted for that increased HD, to prevent Embraced and Assimilated from having unlimited HD. (Assimilated get 2 points/HD, Costs 2/HD, cycle as needed.)

The Evolution (for the Swarmlord) that grants HD needs whether or not it also grants the Evolution points for that HD given the above clause.

An additional Evolution feat would be appreciated.

Edit: Can, and if so how do, the the templates from Assimilation, Infestation and Embrace stack?

[Answerer]

I've only just started reading this, but I feel the need to comment on this:

A Swarmlord cannot use both natural and weapon attacks in the same full attack.

This is a really problematic rule, since it applies to all natural weapons. Frankly, I'd be inclined to drop it altogether: the interactions between natural and manufactured weapons are well-codified and standardized by the rules, it's very weird for this single class to be an exception. If you don't like the usual rules for them, that should be a separate houserule. But at the very least, it should be that she cannot use these natural weapons and manufactured weapons in the same full attack.

Also, a pair of natural weapons at level 1 is pretty good, even with limitations. Even the Totemist struggles to get that. Of course, one or two or even three natural weapons are found on a number of races, so it's not that big a deal.

[Lix Lorn]

Thoughts from a player:

A note needs to be made under the increase HD for evolution points that no additional evolution points are granted for that increased HD, to prevent Embraced and Assimilated from having unlimited HD. (Assimilated get 2 points/HD, Costs 2/HD, cycle as needed.)

The Evolution (for the Swarmlord) that grants HD needs whether or not it also grants the Evolution points for that HD given the above clause.

Whooops. Will clarify on both.

An additional Evolution feat would be appreciated.

I can probably do that.

Edit: Can, and if so how do, the the templates from Assimilation, Infestation and Embrace stack?

I would expect that they do not.

This is a really problematic rule, since it applies to all natural weapons. Frankly, I'd be inclined to drop it altogether: the interactions between natural and manufactured weapons are well-codified and standardized by the rules, it's very weird for this single class to be an exception. If you don't like the usual rules for them, that should be a separate houserule. But at the very least, it should be that she cannot use these natural weapons and manufactured weapons in the same full attack.

Also, a pair of natural weapons at level 1 is pretty good, even with limitations. Even the Totemist struggles to get that. Of course, one or two or even three natural weapons are found on a number of races, so it's not that big a deal.

That... is why that line was in there. I will edit it to say swarmlord natural weapons.

[Leliel]

Oh, I just had an idea for an all-Swarmlord, all-non-evil game!

They're all people who were chosen as sapient vaccines by the Elemental Plane of Flesh, becoming, in effect, the nucleus of their Swarm's cell proteins.

Normally the minds of the plane don't like choosing outside help as champions against the various disease creatures that show up there, but currently they're facing a rather toxic and dangerous enemy disease of outside manufacture. Hence, perspectives from the outside.

They didn't go for evil, because they are fully aware of a kind of cell that doesn't get along with other cells and works only for itself. It's called cancer. Yeah, no thank you.

[Lix Lorn]

Oh wow. That would be pretty darn awesome! I do fear the plyers would find it hard to differentiate from one another, though. I tried to put in a lot of customisability, but unless you get to mess with the white blood cells and twist them into something totally different, you're kinda locked in thematically.

[Erik Vale]

Quote:
Edit: Can, and if so how do, the the templates from Assimilation, Infestation and Embrace stack?

I would expect that they do not.

Ok, next question, can a Swarmlord replace a lower one with a higher (Lke infestation with assimilate), and if so, would mindlessnes from infestation remain.

Also, can the swarmlord self embrace/assimilate/infest?

[Lix Lorn]

Ok, next question, can a Swarmlord replace a lower one with a higher (Lke infestation with assimilate), and if so, would mindlessnes from infestation remain.

Also, can the swarmlord self embrace/assimilate/infest?

Yes, yes, yes, no, no.

[hiryuu]

Nice. Taken, will be used in my 3.P campaign. I must now do a d20 Modern version for my sci fi campaign.

[Lix Lorn]

I hope it's useful. ^^

[Erik Vale]

Some thoughts and Questions.

Swarmlords under a Swarmlord have all their infested/assimilated and embraced members of the Swarm as normal, however all of them count as belonging to the highest swarmlords Swarm, how does this interact with the highest swarmlords controll limit?
((Simpler Version, Swarmlord A controlls Swarmlord B, Swarmlord B has 10 HD of creatures in it's swarm, does this 10 HD also count against Swarmlord A's Limit?))

Given as swarmlords get their power from a hive mind, would it be possible to create a mechanic that grants the Swarmlord more/less psionic power based on the number of creatures/amount of HD in it's swarm (Power points and manifester levels mostly)?

A Swarmling is under the controll of a Swarmlord when within 10/ft per level, How does this work and how does the Swarmlord Comunicate?
((I.E. Do they have automatic two way telepathy/mind read when in range, and if so how does this interact with anti-psionic fields and hive node, and I would assume it is domminated by the sheer might of the hive mind.))
Should it be overwhelmed by the might of the hive mind, it might be worth considering a machanic for Swarmlords to do it to others, and Psions/Psionics have a way to 'overpower' the swarmlord.

At what inteligence range do Swarmlings have thier own personalities?
Assimilated and Embraced members of the Swarm keep their memories, and personalities if they stay out of the hive mind (or the Swarmlord has gentle queen). What happens to these personalities if subsumed? Can the Swarmlord keep the personality in the gestalt mind, or is it destroyed?

How does this class interact with +1 preexisting Manifestor Class? I would assume just psionic abilities but I have to ask.

What formulae is used for deriving power points (For taking the class into epic levels)? (On a simliar note, do you have any plans for an Epic expansion of this class?)

Edit: When you infest/etc creatures, you can make them a member of your swamlings. Do these creatures get the additional Hit Dice of Swarmlings?
For example, where I to assimilate my cohort and assign it to be a member of my swarm through additional swarmling, would the HD add. This is important, as through this a Swarmlord could have a Cohort with additional swarmling and evolution Hit Die creating a cohort with a hit die far in excess of the Swarmlord (Heat dice being less useful then class levels though, this may be a minimul problem.)
Edit: Already solved, yes, Dit dice maximum of the Swarmlord.

I think that is all the Q's.

Also, you say you have been thinking about a Capstone because an additional evolution seems to small, how about 2 Evolutions and a Template bassed on the templates the Swarmlord can give (Say, a modified Assimilated template that can be overwritten for Embraced, No additional LA djustment and reduced LA adjustment if self embracing/reduce of LA if already self embraced.).

And for ACF's as you are considering those, How about a reduced psionics greater BAB/Natural weapons, and a Reduced BAB/Increased Psionics ACF. Also, a increased Evolution points/Evo Cap/HD Cap version might be nice, not as sure what the trade off would be though.


I don't know if your still working on this, and it is a big thought dump, but it's always good for feedback.

[Erik Vale]

Double checking the wording of this:

Double post, just a question I need to make sure isn't missed.

Evolution Points
Evolution points are spent on enhancing the Swarmling-or adding additional Swarmlings. A Swarmlord may not spend more evolution points on any one ability than the Swarmlord’s class level.

A Swarmlord also gains bonus Evolution points for each being she rules, which may only be applied to that being. These bonus points are equal to the bonus Power points gained by a psionic character for high abilities, using Charisma as the governing ability score. A Swarmling does not lose evolution points when the Swarmlord loses Charisma.
The formula is (Ability modifierXlevel)/2, and the table is here.
Ruled beings include all Swarmlings, and Infested, Assimilated, and Embraced that are part of her swarm and its Hive Mind.

This states that each individual swarmling, infested, etc gets (Class level*Ability mod)/2 additional ability points. This is a little excessive, as with that many evolution points to play with at high levels are god like, so did you mean that this pool is distributed over all members of the swarm, or for a pool for each member? If each member, this pool needs to be reduced to prevent Swarmlords from being Teir Pun Pun.

[Lix Lorn]

Some thoughts and Questions.

Swarmlords under a Swarmlord have all their infested/assimilated and embraced members of the Swarm as normal, however all of them count as belonging to the highest swarmlords Swarm, how does this interact with the highest swarmlords controll limit?
((Simpler Version, Swarmlord A controlls Swarmlord B, Swarmlord B has 10 HD of creatures in it's swarm, does this 10 HD also count against Swarmlord A's Limit?))

It doesn't. It only counts if they're directly under your control.

Given as swarmlords get their power from a hive mind, would it be possible to create a mechanic that grants the Swarmlord more/less psionic power based on the number of creatures/amount of HD in it's swarm (Power points and manifester levels mostly)?

It would, but it would be very complicated, very difficult to balance, and would make them more of a one-trick pony.

A Swarmling is under the controll of a Swarmlord when within 10/ft per level, How does this work and how does the Swarmlord Comunicate?
((I.E. Do they have automatic two way telepathy/mind read when in range, and if so how does this interact with anti-psionic fields and hive node, and I would assume it is domminated by the sheer might of the hive mind.))
Should it be overwhelmed by the might of the hive mind, it might be worth considering a machanic for Swarmlords to do it to others, and Psions/Psionics have a way to 'overpower' the swarmlord.

The standard assumption would be telepathy, it would be Extraordinary.
An overpowering mechanic would make sense, but once again would make them very, very binary.

At what inteligence range do Swarmlings have thier own personalities?
Assimilated and Embraced members of the Swarm keep their memories, and personalities if they stay out of the hive mind (or the Swarmlord has gentle queen). What happens to these personalities if subsumed? Can the Swarmlord keep the personality in the gestalt mind, or is it destroyed?

Int 3+ is humanoid intelligence. Int 2 or less is animal intelligence.
If they do not make their will save, the personality is gone. If they do make their save and join the hive mind anyway, then their personality is past of the gestalt.

How does this class interact with +1 preexisting Manifestor Class? I would assume just psionic abilities but I have to ask.

Just psionic abilities.

What formulae is used for deriving power points (For taking the class into epic levels)? (On a simliar note, do you have any plans for an Epic expansion of this class?)

+3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +7, +8, +9, +10, +10. Each level adds one more than the level before it, but fifth levels add the same as the previous.

Also, you say you have been thinking about a Capstone because an additional evolution seems to small, how about 2 Evolutions and a Template bassed on the templates the Swarmlord can give (Say, a modified Assimilated template that can be overwritten for Embraced, No additional LA djustment and reduced LA adjustment if self embracing/reduce of LA if already self embraced.).

That sounds... really, really complicated. X_x

And for ACF's as you are considering those, How about a reduced psionics greater BAB/Natural weapons, and a Reduced BAB/Increased Psionics ACF. Also, a increased Evolution points/Evo Cap/HD Cap version might be nice, not as sure what the trade off would be though.

First two might work. Not sure on the second.

Double checking the wording of this:

Double post, just a question I need to make sure isn't missed.

This states that each individual swarmling, infested, etc gets (Class level*Ability mod)/2 additional ability points. This is a little excessive, as with that many evolution points to play with at high levels are god like, so did you mean that this pool is distributed over all members of the swarm, or for a pool for each member? If each member, this pool needs to be reduced to prevent Swarmlords from being Teir Pun Pun.

Look at how expensive some of the stuff is. A 20th level Swarmlord with cha 30 gets 100 points for each swarmling. It costs 20 points to get them up to 21 hit die. If you want them to be good at something, you really need that many points.

[Tacitus]

Look at how expensive some of the stuff is. A 20th level Swarmlord with cha 30 gets 100 points for each swarmling. It costs 20 points to get them up to 21 hit die. If you want them to be good at something, you really need that many points.

Aye, I second Lix on this. In fact, the most broken thing you can do with that many EP would probably be a swarm of 8th level manifester/caster dual progression beasties with a caster level of 26, which requires four of your evolutions devoted to it and 48 EP. Add in 5ep for Mind over Matter to make casting viable and likely a bunch into Enhanced Attribute, 20 into Armored Scales for durability on these squishies, likely another 20 into HD for health, and you're breaking 100 easy.

[Erik Vale]

Still, the thought of commoners getting that big. But heh.

MY main concern was however for creatures such as Embraced Cohorts that are part of the swarm (My charactrer in progress is going to have a cohort and familiar with over +200 in addition to whatever I give them).

[Lix Lorn]

Still, the thought of commoners getting that big. But heh.

MY main concern was however for creatures such as Embraced Cohorts that are part of the swarm (My charactrer in progress is going to have a cohort and familiar with over +200 in addition to whatever I give them).

Ah, well. Getting ONE character with +300 or more points is an intended option. If it's not clear, the base evolution points are SHARED between all swarmlings, while every member of the swarm gains its own pool from the swarmlord's charisma score.

Also, I know that I wouldn't let you embrace a cohort without paying for the LA somehow.

[Erik Vale]

I know the pool is Shared. (I'm basically spreading between swarmlings).

As for Cohort, I'm playing Level 28 with a 26 Level cohort, Embraced and Swarmling now, its a lvl 20 with 8 Swarmling HD, Becoming +120 Evo from Charisma and + 112.
The Swarmling points I use to increase my less important swarmlings.

Also, while I think on it, how do Swarmling Evolution points advance past level 20?

Similar on the line of my Familiar, Fusion the two together and I have a death machine I totally controll, legal.

As to the Capstone, not really. Quick Example in spoiler based on modified Assimilated Template.

Spoiler

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Queen Incarnate (Level 20)
When the Swarmlord gains this ability, it gains one additional evolution (granting two evolutions for level 20).

This Feature grants the Swarm Queen Template. Should this template be replaced with the Embraced Template, it counts as an increase of level adjustment of only (x(2 or three suggested)) instead of 6.

Swarm Queen Template

Speed: The Swarm Queen gains +10ft to Land Speed.

Armor Class: The Swarm Queen gains +4 Natural Armour Class, and +1 to Resist.

Special Qualities: Self Evolving. The Swarm Queen counts as being part of her swarm, gaining Evolution points to use on herself as per any member of her swarm. (Number = Class Level*Ability Score Modiier/2)

Abilities: Str+4, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, 2 Wis, Cha +4.
If you have Shrewd Queen or Queens Guidence, you may Swap the +4 Charisma to Wisdom or Intelligence. ((Perhaps only +2 Charisma for +6 Str for combat based ACF))

Feats: Iron Will. Force of Personality.

LA: +0

[Lix Lorn]

@_@

Each level, evolution points increase by one more than the previous level.

I'm just not sure. I don't want to just give a sudden, flat power boost at level 20. I've considered giving them the Embraced template, but if I do, I'll give it to them over the course of their levels.

[Erik Vale]

Between 9-18 there is nothing, so it might be good to fit something around 12/13, just to avoid the huge power boost near the end of the class.

Yea, I would suggest Say 12/11 Infested Base. I was personally aiming to end at Assimilated but one based on that would fit well at 14/15, with assimilated base at 20.

[Silva Stormrage]

How exactly do you stop a creep tumor? I know from Starcraft that its a physical object that burrows in the ground but its rather vague in this form. Is it a physical object? Can the creep it spawns be removed by wish? Miracle? Heal? Remove Curse? How hard is it to destroy a creep tumor? How big is it? Does the creep get removed instantly once the creep tumor is removed or does it take time?

Also do two creep tumors on the same spot multiply the rate? As in do they increase the creep spread to 40ft radius increase per hour?

Fairly important if I want to run one of these as a villian who tries to creep over the world I would have to house rule how the PC's could stop the spread of creep.


Over all incredible class I really enjoy it 10/10

Edit: Also do infested/assimliated constructs gain a con score? It isn't mentioned in the Synthetic Swarm Evolution

[Erik Vale]

Edit: Also do infested/assimliated constructs gain a con score? It isn't mentioned in the Synthetic Swarm Evolution

That. That would be funny/interesting/odd, you would end up with golums gaining negative constitution modifiers.
However,

Humanoids change to monstrous humanoids. Vermin and animals change to magical beasts. Other types remain as they were. Size is unchanged.

Bolded for emphases, constructs remain constructs, construct type states they have no con score, therefore infested/etc constructs do not gain a con score.

Edit: Q, on that train of thought, If a Swarmlord has no Con Score (Say, it became undead), what happens to constitution based DC's?
((I'm cheking SRD for something based on this, also for poisons, as a point of interest))

[Lix Lorn]

How exactly do you stop a creep tumor? I know from Starcraft that its a physical object that burrows in the ground but its rather vague in this form. Is it a physical object? Can the creep it spawns be removed by wish? Miracle? Heal? Remove Curse? How hard is it to destroy a creep tumor? How big is it? Does the creep get removed instantly once the creep tumor is removed or does it take time?

Oh, hmm. I imagine it should have hit points...

Also do two creep tumors on the same spot multiply the rate? As in do they increase the creep spread to 40ft radius increase per hour?

No. xD

Fairly important if I want to run one of these as a villian who tries to creep over the world I would have to house rule how the PC's could stop the spread of creep.

Rule 0 is the best rule. :P

Over all incredible class I really enjoy it 10/10

Thanks!

Edit: Also do infested/assimliated constructs gain a con score? It isn't mentioned in the Synthetic Swarm Evolution

That. That would be funny/interesting/odd, you would end up with golums gaining negative constitution modifiers.
However,

Bolded for emphases, constructs remain constructs, construct type states they have no con score, therefore infested/etc constructs do not gain a con score.

Yes, that. xD

Edit: Q, on that train of thought, If a Swarmlord has no Con Score (Say, it became undead), what happens to constitution based DC's?
((I'm cheking SRD for something based on this, also for poisons, as a point of interest))

Technically, Con - has a modifier of 0. I'm not entirely sure what to do about this.

OH ALSO
There is a hive mind sidebar now!

[Erik Vale]

You are loved. I'm not sure who by, but you are.

I have read the Hive mind sidebar, It seems to be best for good swarmlords with everything being cared for and considered, but I can see it applying both ways.
Having read it, It shows that they should all have constant telepathy, however a thought:

- Based on the sidebar, I would say that all members of the swarm can use the highest skill levels of any member, not just the swarmlord be able to replace his/her swarmling skills. This however may end up with an omni-skilled character that only looses skill monkey abilities when it is reduced in size.

Edit: You need to update your edit notes at the bottom of the OP. Now you just need the template gain, maybe swarmlings edits if you haven't already, and ACF.

Also, with The Swarm Grows, who count as spending the points to reach the point cap? With the each member gets it's own special points, it would be possible to have unlimited swarmlings under your (direct and indirect) controll.

[Durazno]

One thing I've been thinking about for a while, and I apologize if I missed the place where something like this exists, but might it be possible for a swarmlord to somehow "save" or "store" the mind of a creature s/he is infesting? I guess it would be a psychic thing. But that way you could make an investment to counteract the problem of the mindlessness remaining when you move creatures up from infestation to the higher levels of swarmness.

Or am I misunderstanding this?

[Erik Vale]

Already asked, no the personality is completely destroyed...

However, it might be worth making a Feat like this invocation.

Spoiler

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Nevermore
Dark; 9th
Through this invocation, you draw the soul from a newly dead body and imprison it within yourself permanently. The subject must have been dead no more than 1 round per caster level and can make a Will saving throw to negate the effect (with a +2 circumstance bonus for every soul you already hold trapped in this manner). If a creature saves against this invocation, you may not target that creature again with it unless they have been raised from the dead and then subsequently died again. If successful, this invocation deals 1 point of damage for every Hit Die that the subject possesses; this damage cannot be reduced or prevented in any way. The soul, once trapped within your body, cannot be returned through clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, true resurrection, or even a miracle or wish. All souls so trapped are released should you die. At any time, you can voluntarily release one of the souls that you are holding as a full-round action, though doing so deals you another 1 point of damage for every Hit Die that the subject possesses that cannot be avoided or prevented.

When you trap a soul in this manner, you may pick one skill in which the subject had trained. You gain a profane bonus to that skill equal to 1/3 the creature's Hit Dice for as long as you hold that soul within yourself.

Probably weaker than that, however, and without the damage.

[Lix Lorn]

You are loved. I'm not sure who by, but you are.

I have read the Hive mind sidebar, It seems to be best for good swarmlords with everything being cared for and considered, but I can see it applying both ways.
Having read it, It shows that they should all have constant telepathy, however a thought:

This is probably because of my own prejudices. I may note that this is one interpretation: That sidebar is FLUFF, not crunch. It can be changed.

- Based on the sidebar, I would say that all members of the swarm can use the highest skill levels of any member, not just the swarmlord be able to replace his/her swarmling skills. This however may end up with an omni-skilled character that only looses skill monkey abilities when it is reduced in size.

This is a problem. While the GESTALT CONSCIOUSNESS would have all their skills, actually applying them through the link is difficult.

Edit: You need to update your edit notes at the bottom of the OP. Now you just need the template gain, maybe swarmlings edits if you haven't already, and ACF.

I have updated them. They show only things that are wrong with what is there, rather than future plans.

Also, with The Swarm Grows, who count as spending the points to reach the point cap? With the each member gets it's own special points, it would be possible to have unlimited swarmlings under your (direct and indirect) controll.

The Swarmlord does, and no it isn't. Notice the limit of points to a character's level, and the fact that each extra-
Oh, hey. This is a good catch. I'll make this very clear.

One thing I've been thinking about for a while, and I apologize if I missed the place where something like this exists, but might it be possible for a swarmlord to somehow "save" or "store" the mind of a creature s/he is infesting? I guess it would be a psychic thing. But that way you could make an investment to counteract the problem of the mindlessness remaining when you move creatures up from infestation to the higher levels of swarmness.

Or am I misunderstanding this?

Not really. If you want them to stay intelligent, you need to not get rid of the intelligence in the first place.
I guess I just don't see how it's that useful. How about, if you write this ability up as an evolution or a feat, I'll clean it up and add it? Since it seems to be something a couple of people want.