MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[ti'esar]

No matter how much I zoom in or out on the latest strip, it appears like the MitD is shaking hands with O'Chul.

It's hardly conclusive, but it's something to consider.

It's also an illusion.

[DaggerPen]

No matter how much I zoom in or out on the latest strip, it appears like the MitD is shaking hands with O'Chul.

It's hardly conclusive, but it's something to consider.

It looks like he has a little hand, but this is also occurring entirely in the minds of one or more Order members, so unless they've somehow figured out what the MitD is, it's more likely that whoever's mind conjured up the image (my bet's on Elan) just kind of assumed that the MitD had a hand with no real knowledge of him.

[Geordnet]

No matter how much I zoom in or out on the latest strip, it appears like the MitD is shaking hands with O'Chul.

It's hardly conclusive, but it's something to consider.

O'chul definitely seems to be holding something, and nothing would make more sense than the MitD's hand. Or analogous appendage.

If that is the MitD's hand, it would appear his coloration is in the "yellowish" range of the spectrum. (It is impossible to say with certainty exactly what color it is, but it's certainly not red, blue, green, or purple.)

It looks like he has a little hand, but this is also occurring entirely in the minds of one or more Order members, so unless they've somehow figured out what the MitD is, it's more likely that whoever's mind conjured up the image (my bet's on Elan) just kind of assumed that the MitD had a hand with no real knowledge of him.

Unless Rich has decided to give us a sneak peek, which I would think is more likely than some convoluted in-comic explanation.

[SaintRidley]

Absolutely nothing in #887 regarding MitD actually tells us anything about MitD, considering it's all an illusion cobbled from the minds of a group with two members who have actually seen the thing, and even they never saw whether it had hands or not.

In short, #887 provides no new information for this thread at all.

[Kish]

And I already thought about the MITD being male, but it's not too incredibly odd for a female player to play a male character. Having a man refer to himself as "Mrs." is much odder.

If this implies that male players play female characters very rarely...that definitely doesn't match my experience.

(If it implies something else, I hate to think what.)

[Conte_Vincero]

I think we should look into that prospective "hand" while this is roy's illusion, remember that Roy has never seen MitD so this is unlikely to be tainted by his misconceptions. If anyone knows a way of enlarging this then please do. I would but

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I took quicken instead

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Everyone else gets to tell bad jokes so why can't I

However I'm not sure it is a hand. I think it might just be him handing MitD a bowl of stew.

[ReaderAt2046]

If this implies that male players play female characters very rarely...that definitely doesn't match my experience.

(If it implies something else, I hate to think what.)

It wasn't intended to imply that.

[Olinser]

I think we should look into that prospective "hand" while this is roy's illusion, remember that Roy has never seen MitD so this is unlikely to be tainted by his misconceptions. If anyone knows a way of enlarging this then please do. I would but

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I took quicken instead

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Everyone else gets to tell bad jokes so why can't I

However I'm not sure it is a hand. I think it might just be him handing MitD a bowl of stew.

This illusion is based on their own preconceptions and knowledge.

Belkar and Haley have seen the MiTD, and Roy probably had a conversation about him with O'Chul.

There are such a stupid amount of things totally wrong with the illusion right now that we should treat everything in it as false and just ignore it.

[Geordnet]

Absolutely nothing in #887 regarding MitD actually tells us anything about MitD, considering it's all an illusion cobbled from the minds of a group with two members who have actually seen the thing, and even they never saw whether it had hands or not.

It is whatever Rich decided to show us. This page came entirely from his mind, and he does know what the MitD looks like and may have decided to give us a sneak peek, regardless of what the characters know.

In short, #887 provides no new information for this thread at all.

It provides nothing conclusive. But it can be taken into account, on a purely hypothetical basis; maybe set some people thinking in directions they wouldn't have before.

So, if that is the MitD's hand, what sort of creatures might have a hand that color, and also large enough that Rich would draw it in a non-stick form?

If anyone knows a way of enlarging this then please do.

There's know way of getting it at any higher resolution than it is now, except asking Rich for a higher-resolution copy.

However, I zoomed in and this is what I got:
██
██

However I'm not sure it is a hand. I think it might just be him handing MitD a bowl of stew.

Oh, I didn't think of that. That would make sense, and it's even the right color.

This illusion is based on their own preconceptions and knowledge.

It's based on what Rich wants to show us. He may decide to keep it within the limits of the OOTS's preconceptions and knowledge, OR he may decide to use the opportunity to give us another clue as to the MitD's true form. Unless Rich tells us which it is, you can't really say for sure.

There are such a stupid amount of things totally wrong with the illusion right now that we should treat everything in it as false and just ignore it.

I disagree. Of course the illusion is all but useless as evidence, but we shouldn't automatically assume that everything in there is absolutely untrue. We just need to keep its inconclusive nature in mind.

We can still say "what if it is true?", extrapolate, then see if it fits with corroborating data. It's just that only the concrete corroborating data would actually be evidence for whatever conclusion is reached (which includes "it can't be true, because it conflicts with solid data").

[Shale]

Rich went out of his way to show that anything the main characters don't personally know doesn't match up with reality. Redcloak is a healbot who doesn't help out in a fight, Tsukiko, Thanh and Durkon are alive, Tarquin and Nale are willing to accept a defeat, etc. There's no reason to think that this one tiny maybe-a-detail is accurate when literally nothing else on the page is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is whatever Rich decided to show us. This page came entirely from his mind, and he does know what the MitD looks like and may have decided to give us a sneak peek, regardless of what the characters know.

No, this is incorrect. What he showed us is precisely, and uniquely, what the characters know, and what their minds invent to fill in the details that they don't. This is most obvious from the eye patch on RC, and the wrong-shaped holy symbol he wears. All evidence says as much, and Rich has confirmed that it is based on their knowledge - or rather, lack thereof.

None of the characters having this illusion has ever seen MitD's hand, and thus cannot possibly know what it looks like. They may assume he has one, but that tells us nothing about MitD.

If Rich wanted to give us the shape and colour of the hand, he could have done so earlier, in more believable context.

Grey Wolf

[Geordnet]

Rich went out of his way to show that anything the main characters don't personally know doesn't match up with reality.

Hm, that is a very good point...

If Rich wanted to give us the shape and colour of the hand, he could have done so earlier, in more believable context.

Or, he didn't plan to show us MitD's hand -but he saw an opportunity, and took it.

It's more or less moot, though, since we now have an established pattern, (Rich went out of his way to show only things the characters know in the other panels) and an alternative explanation that fits it better (O'Chul is offering a bowl of stew to MitD).

While it is still hypothetically possible that it is the MitD's hand, it probably isn't. (The only reason I was arguing up to this point is that I didn't see the connection between what the characters know and what Rich drew, until Shale pointed out evidence that Rich was deliberately limiting himself to IC knowledge.)

[Bongos]

Hard to tell what it is in that picture, but from O'chul's body language it appears he is giving the MitD something.

I don't see anything that really looks like an MitD hand.

Of course we all know that when the MitD picks something up or holds something his hand is not visible, why would this case be anything different?

[pwning doodes]

Who here likes MitD better than Xykon? If so, please come help him out in the Favorite Character Tournament thread! The monster we have all been speculating about for so long seems at risk of getting outvoted by his evil lich lord, just as the real Xykon keeps him under control in the comic. Help save MitD from this tyranny: simply go to the favorit character thread and post "MitD". Together, we can vanquish Xykon in this small way.

[Bongos]

Soooo, I was just more or less rereading Oots, and I came across the scene where Belkar and Haley encounter the MitD having a tea party, they are about to leave till the MitD yells "STOP", and Belkar and Haley stop look momentarily stunned and do just that.

I can't recall this being discussed before, probably it has and I haven't read it. What was the conclusion? A spell like ability? MitD being able to simply yell really loud because of his power?

I dunno, seems like some kinda clue to me, maybe not one of the "big scenes" but not every monster in the manual could do something like that.

[Steven]

It has been. So far nothing really useful as far as I can recall: It's listed in the first post under 'abilities' and that mentions the Shout attack and Frightful presence.

[allenw]

The "Command" spell would also fit. That doesn't really help, though, unless someone is aware of any creature that has it as a spell-like ability.
"Command" and "Earthquake" are both Clerical spells, and Miracle could explain the "Escape" scene. Has anyone found any usually-Evil monsters that inherently actually cast spells "as a cleric"? The handful I can think of are Good outsiders.

[Savannah]

Casting spells as a cleric is no good, as Redcloak explicitly says MitD has zero cleric levels (strip 299).

[rodneyAnonymous]

casting spells as a cleric =/= having cleric class levels

[Qwertystop]

casting spells as a cleric =/= having cleric class levels

Actually, for this they sort of are equal. If he casts as a cleric, he can cast any cleric spell as long as he has a chance to prepare spells. Because that's how clerics cast.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"casts spells as a cleric" also =/= "prepares spells"

The rules are kind of fuzzy: some monster descriptions say "prepares and casts spells as..." (why would it say both if only saying one doesn't mean something different?), some kinds of monsters would clearly need to prepare spells / choose which spells they have that day, but for other kinds (e.g. gold dragons) a strong case could be made that they do not need to choose in advance. Up to the DM I think. But they're not the same.

[Qwertystop]

"casts spells as a cleric" also =/= "prepares spells"

Um... So what's left that differentiates it from "has these spells as SLAs, this many times per day" or "casts as insert-other-casting-class-here"?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Um... So what's left that differentiates it from "has these spells as SLAs, this many times per day" or "casts as insert-other-casting-class-here"?

SLA are usually limited to one or a few specific spells, whereas "casts as" implies access to the whole spell list (or anyway a choice from among the spells in the list, if the class is sorceror).

[Qwertystop]

SLA are usually limited to one or a few specific spells, whereas "casts as" implies access to the whole spell list (or anyway a choice from among the spells in the list, if the class is sorceror).

Exactly. So for "casts as a cleric", I see these possibilities for how to figure out what spells those are:
1: It prepares spells, as a cleric.
2: As 1, but with an unchangeable preset list of "prepared" spells. This is identical to a bunch of SLAs, except that components and foci are still needed. It's also probably the worst way ever to do Vancian casting. In addition, the list would be given in the monster entry - so if you find something like this? Great, but if the list doesn't fit there's not any real way to finagle it.
3: It casts any spell from the list spontaneously, very definitely not as a cleric does, until it runs out of spell slots. This is really more "casts as a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread necromancer, but using the Cleric list and spells-per-day"
4: It casts spontaneously from a limited selection of cleric spells, which is even less like a cleric and actually exactly like a favored soul except for getting new spell levels at the odds instead of the evens.


The only one of these cases that wouldn't need to be explicitly spelled out (due to being different from standard Cleric casting methods) is 1. Otherwise you're just saying "well, it doesn't say you can't cast in insert-method-here."

Or is there something I missed?

[rodneyAnonymous]

The only one of these cases that wouldn't need to be explicitly spelled out (due to being different from standard Cleric casting methods) is 1. Otherwise you're just saying "well, it doesn't say you can't cast in insert-method-here."

Or is there something I missed?

1) Even if my point boiled down to nothing more than "it doesn't say you can't", that is a sufficient challenge to the idea that "casting spells as a cleric" is "no good" as a possible clue to the MitD's identity. The basis for that claim is incorrect.

2) Two mechanics being similar (even very similar) is not proof that they are the same in every way; there are many examples of spells/abilities/monsters/etc that differ only in some nitpicky detail, but that detail has gameplay significance.

[Qwertystop]

Okay, can you give any specific example of what you're talking about? Not necessarily a particular monster, just any method that you would qualify as "casts as a cleric" that doesn't prepare spells and wouldn't say what it does do instead of saying that it casts as a cleric does? Because if you strip out preparing or spells-known other methods of determining castable spells, every single casting class casts exactly the same way - you choose a spell you can cast, you take the required action (which differs by spell, not by class), and that's it.

Because I think one of us is misunderstanding the other's point.

I mean, outside observers/other people on this thread: Am I completely missing something here? Is he? Are we talking about different things here?

[rodneyAnonymous]

The gold dragon is the most obvious example I can think of. It "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" and "can also cast spells from the cleric list [...] as arcane spells."

Because I think one of us is misunderstanding the other's point.

My only point is that "Redcloak says the MitD doesn't have cleric class levels" doesn't mean "MitD casts spells as an X level cleric" is out of the question, because they're not the same.

Your point is that, as far as you can tell, those two things are functionally similar (or even identical). True? If so, my point still stands. Even if the only difference is that they're called different things.

[rweird]

My only point is that "Redcloak says the MitD doesn't have cleric class levels" doesn't mean "MitD casts spells as an X level cleric" is out of the question, because they're not the same.

Your point is that, as far as you can tell, those two things are functionally similar (or even identical). True? If so, my point still stands. Even if the only difference is that they're called different things.

You need to understand the reason RC mentioned not being a cleric, it was referencing the MitD's inability to use Animate Dead, if the MitD could cast as a cleric without cleric levels, he could cast Animate Dead, meaning RC would have no reason to tell the MitD he can't help animating undead when he can.

While you might have a point, I don't think that Rich would make RC say that if he could cast as a cleric.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I do understand that. I don't think Redcloak is a reliable authority on what the MitD can and can't do.

[Olinser]

The gold dragon is the most obvious example I can think of. It "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" and "can also cast spells from the cleric list [...] as arcane spells."



My only point is that "Redcloak says the MitD doesn't have cleric class levels" doesn't mean "MitD casts spells as an X level cleric" is out of the question, because they're not the same.

Your point is that, as far as you can tell, those two things are functionally similar (or even identical). True? If so, my point still stands. Even if the only difference is that they're called different things.

The relevant part of Redcloak's statement isn't the specific wording when he says MitD doesn't have cleric class levels.

The relevant part is that Redcloak was sarcastically dismissive of the MitD's ability to aid in animating dead. So as far as Redcloak knew (and he really seems to be the only one confident that he actually knows what the MitD IS), the MitD did not have cleric class levels, and was not capable of casting spells as a cleric, period.

Now whether Redcloak is actually CORRECT in his knowledge may be up for debate, but his statement has only one meaning: MitD cannot cast cleric spells.