MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[Silverionmox]

The best way to use templates is to go through the list of b-candidates who lack in some crucial aspect, and find a template that makes them a perfect match;

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, could you explain what you mean by this?

For an idea to be added, I need more than a name, it has to be minimally defended: explain at least its high-matching pros. It happens a lot that someone will just do a drive-by posting and simply name a creature, no explanation added - and about a third of those are templated. Unless the idea really attracts my attention, I don't add them.

With templates, it is especially snowballing, because someone will propose a base creature, and then posters will just "shout out" different template combinations.

Grey Wolf

[pwning doodes]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually tried to find a stack of templates that would turn a potted plant into a proper MitD candidate? Might be interesting to see how convoluted that would really have to be.

I would love to see this! I personally know almost nothing about D&D rules and don't have any sourcebooks. However, it would be fun to read someone else's potted plant template stack.

Are we completely against templates as a whole? Or could we concede to, say, one template draped over the creature that MitD might be?

I would argue that one or two templates would be reasonable. Observe here and here where Rich gives Malack homebrewed "obscure spells" for his staff to hand-wave away his vulnerability to sunlight and the delay to create a spawn. These are clear examples of The Giant's willingness to apply augmentation to plot critical characters. One simple template for MitD (such as Dungeonbred) would be par for the course. I hate all the tarrasque template stacks and such as much as the next guy, but I don't think this sort of mild augmentation is nearly as excessive.

[Steven]

Based on Rich's comments I, personally, don't think a template is likely unless it is hinted at in some way in the actual comic.

And even with templates I don't think anyone has actually come up with a combination that will explain all of the scenes. Wish, the best option for the escape scene, isn't bestowed by any templates AFAIK and I think the stomp is also still problematic. It could be worked around by multiple templates but it quickly becomes ridiculous.

Not that this means people shouldn't try. If someone can find a creature with a single stock template that fits all the scenes perfectly that would be fairly persuasive for me... But from what I've seen people tend to have a favorite creature and then try and make it fit with templates that don't quite do the job.

[Silver Swift]

And even with templates I don't think anyone has actually come up with a combination that will explain all of the scenes. Wish, the best option for the escape scene, isn't bestowed by any templates AFAIK and I think the stomp is also still problematic. It could be worked around by multiple templates but it quickly becomes ridiculous.

Could you elaborate on that, if there isn't a template that bestows wish, how would multiple templates help cover for that?

That is one of the reasons I would like to see a template stack for the
potplant-MitD, to see if it would actually be possible to get all of the big scene abilities from templates (the other of course being that it would be interesting to imagine just how bizarre that creature would have to be ).

[Crusher]

The only template I've seen that can cover the escape is Phrenic with Psychic Teleport, and that assumes the MitD's box was hit by a dimensional anchor and you figure out some manner in which MitD is touching O'chul and V.

Start with Phrenic, then you need to add really strong defenses, great strength and something that makes MitD look freaky. There are a pretty wide variety of combinations that'll get you there, but the magnitude of the defenses and the sheer amount of STR needed (presuming a potted plant starts at 0 STR) are the biggest hurdles to clear with the fewest number of templates. Personally I'd go with Paragon and Pseudonatural which will give it a STR of 37, DR 10/epic, and an AC of 59 (assuming it starts with 0).

So, assuming MitD is touching the escapees with an invisible tentacle or telekinesis is considered to equal "touch", a Phrenic Pseudonatural Paragon potted plant will get you there in three templates.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only template I've seen that can cover the escape is Phrenic with Psychic Teleport, and that assumes the MitD's box was hit by a dimensional anchor and you figure out some manner in which MitD is touching O'chul and V.

There is abundant evidence that (wizard) teleportation doesn't require touching in OotS. It is not much of a stretch that neither would psychic teleport.

As to the dimensional anchor, we do have one from V in that same scene unaccounted for...

Phrenic, Pseudonatural Paragon potted plant will get you there in three templates.

Can those three be applied to a plant, or do you first need to make the plant some kind of plant-animal hybrid?

Grey Wolf

[ChristianSt]

Phrenic Pseudonatural Paragon potted plant

I don't know if you spent any thoughts on it, but PPPPP (or maybe P^5) would be a good abbreviation for that (or can we add a couple of more P's?).

[martianmister]

The most dangerous box ever's link isn't working.

[Bulldog Psion]

Can those three be applied to a plant, or do you first need to make the plant some kind of plant-animal hybrid?

Grey Wolf

Awaken, a 5th level druid spell, will do the job quite nicely, I'd think.

So can we call this setup "P5A"? Phrenic Pseudonatural Paragon Potted Plant, Awakened. Or PPPPPA might work, too.

[Kish]

Awaken, a 5th level druid spell, will do the job quite nicely, I'd think.

How so? An awakened tree* is an animated object with the plant type. Still no animal in there.

I don't know if the templates in question can be applied to a plant--they're not as easy to look up in the SRD as Awaken--but if they can't be applied to a non-Awakened plant, they can't be applied to an Awakened plant.

*Plus, if the SRD accurately transcribes the relevant book on the subject, it would immediately run into, "A potted plant is not a tree. Next!"

Could use a bonsai tree to get around that, I suppose.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The most dangerous box ever's link isn't working.

Moved here until I figure out if it is permanently gone, or just moved elsewhere in the website
[*]The most dangerous box ever:

Spoiler

Show

Awaken, a 5th level druid spell, will do the job quite nicely, I'd think.

Using anything other than templates would defeat the purpose of the exercise, though.

I can buy that the PPP template stack will grant any creature explanation for the FBS. I suspect that the potted plant still needs to be given a form of locomotion - so we'd need a template that allows it to fly, or similar. We also need a template that can be given to a plant-type creature (bear with my lack of proper terminology; I'm at work and can't easily check d20 SRD). Pseudonatural might do the trick - IIRC, it gave you outsider status - but someone would need to check.

I asked about it because I remember that when templates were last seriously studied, there was a lot of mucking about with "the template only works on dragons, so first I need to use the half-dragon template" kind of reasoning. If we are going to do this, we might as well do it properly.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

There is abundant evidence that (wizard) teleportation doesn't require touching in OotS. It is not much of a stretch that neither would psychic teleport.

As to the dimensional anchor, we do have one from V in that same scene unaccounted for...



Can those three be applied to a plant, or do you first need to make the plant some kind of plant-animal hybrid?

Grey Wolf

Phrenic can't be applied to anything mindless which a potted plant presumably would be (though I admit I've never tried very hard to talk to one). However, Pseudonatural can be applied to any "corporeal creature" and that raises the target's base INT to a minimum of 3. A potted plant is corporeal, and I assumed it would count as a creature but I've realized that might be an overreach.

Paragon is similar, applicable to any "creature", and gives a flat +15 to all stats ("Because I am better.", "At what?", "Everything". Khan seems like a pretty good conceptual model for thinking about a human Paragon). I assume either raising INT to 3 or a flat +15 INT would be enough to move away from non-mindless but, again, I'm not sure if the plant counts as a creature. (Paragon also makes natural attacks count as Epic, so god help you if its a cactus).

However, another issue has struck me. Plants don't have eyes, and while Pseudonatural allows the creature to shift to a grotesque tentacled form, there's no mention of the "form" having eyes either, or a mouth for that matter. Its probably going to need another template. However, if its a "half-something" template or whatever fixes the cosmetic stuff (and perhaps ensures it has "creature" status), with a STR bonus of at least +8 we can dump Paragon though that would also drop its DR to 5/epic unless it also ends up with 8 or more HD, and DR 5 likely wouldn't be enough.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, looked up the types & subtypes in the d20, and it seems that our biggest challenge would be that "regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, [...] are not creatures, but objects, even thought they are alive".

I doubt there is a way around this, unless we can first change it into a construct first (presumably some templates can change everyday objects into dangerous constructs: killer tables!).

Grey Wolf, who really should go back to work. Curse you, far more interesting forum than remunerated activities!

[hamishspence]

The Animate Objects spell? If it can be done permanently, you could have a plant Animated Object.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Animate Objects spell? If it can be done permanently, you could have a plant Animated Object.

As I said above, I understand that the purpose of the exercise is to start with a potted plant and, by templates alone, turn it into something that matches MitD.

GW

[Crusher]

Half-dragon would work in place of Paragon since it gives +8 STR (for a total of 30) and changes you into a sentient creature (with eyes and stuff). Defenses take a big hit since half-dragon doesn't give any extra HD, dropping to DR 5/Epic and 35 AC which might be inadequate (darn non-stacking natural armor bonuses).

Plus, its not a "P" which is unfortunate. Half-Dragon Phrenic Pseudonatural Potted Plant?

[Bulldog Psion]

Half-dragon would work in place of Paragon since it gives +8 STR (for a total of 30) and changes you into a sentient creature (with eyes and stuff). Defenses take a big hit since half-dragon doesn't give any extra HD, dropping to DR 5/Epic and 35 AC which might be inadequate (darn non-stacking natural armor bonuses).

Plus, its not a "P" which is unfortunate. Half-Dragon Phrenic Pseudonatural Potted Plant?

HD4P almost sounds like a Star Wars droid designation.

[rweird]

I don't know how relevant this'd be, but Psuedonatural has:

At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

I think that'd work for the circus scene.

Phenric gives Psionic Teleport, if 15+ HD. Combined with Psuedonatural's +22 strength, I think that pretty much ANY creatures (corporeal creature without psionic subtype, though it'd need 15+ HD to get the teleport SLAs, which incidentally would also give DR 10/epic, if 16+, 15/epic).

We have no evidence of those templates, though I think that just those two templates could work pretty well.

[Silver Swift]

I don't know how relevant this'd be, but Psuedonatural has:

At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

I think that'd work for the circus scene.

Doesn't sound like he is just standing there, other than that, I think this might be up to FBS level, (if the templates can all be applied to a plant somehow).

Edit: To be clear, I'm not suggesting we add HD4P to the first post, the templates disqualify it, just that it is similarly fitting of the MitD's abilities.

EditEdit: Grey wolf makes a good point a couple posts back, can this thing move?

[rweird]

The MitD could have changed at some point previously and never reverted to "normal" form.

The point I'm trying to make is that, funny as the HD4P is, it could just as easily be a legendary tiger.

The problem with the HD4P is that it to my knowledge doesn't have 15 HD, and thusly couldn't teleport people.

[AgentPaper]

If we can get a literal plotted plant (like, a fern, not a bonsai tree) to meet all of the clues we've had, I'd be all for putting it into the "humorous" category, along with a detailed description of how exactly it turned into the beast that it is now.

It really needs to fit all of the clues, though, which includes stuff like having a father, or at least something that MitD could interpret as a father.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If we can get a literal plotted plant (like, a fern, not a bonsai tree) to meet all of the clues we've had, I'd be all for putting it into the "humorous" category, along with a detailed description of how exactly it turned into the beast that it is now.

It really needs to fit all of the clues, though, which includes stuff like having a father, or at least something that MitD could interpret as a father.

Actually, I'm all for adding it as a cautionary example to the Augmentation section.

After all, clues such as "having a father" are easy enough with templates ("He's half-dragon, so his dad was said dragon"). That's the point of my oposition to templates, after all. At some point, the base creature becomes irrelevant. If the potted plant turns out to be impossible as a base (because it is by RAW an object), we can pick a similarly ridiculous base (a fly, for example. Or a bacteria. Or mold. Not yellow mold, just everyday bread mold).

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

I suggest we template up a bat or a toad. Why? They're the lowest CR (CR 1/10!) creatures in the MM1, so they have stats, but are also ridiculous. (Personally, I'd go for toad.)

[Qwertystop]

If it's an Awakened bonsai, or a Permanencied Animated Object'd other kind of potted plant, it might still qualify as long as none of the templates are inherited. Acquired templates would still be fine.

Thing is, even though it's not technically a template by the template rules, it's pretty close. Both Awaken (when cast on a tree) and Animate Object basically give rules for coming up with an end-result creature based on what you cast it on - the only reason it's not a template is that the starting thing doesn't have any actual stats, so the spell creates them. The spell is cast to create the creature, but the end result is a creature that just happens to have been created via spell. Would a creature created by the Epic Spell Seed "Life" be valid, such as this one, assuming that such a creature exists in official material? It's the same idea. (Yes, Epic spells are broken in both directions at once - it's the Truenamer problem but with too many ways to migitate it.

Not sure if Permanency works on Animate Object, though, so that might be out.

[rweird]

Permanency on Animate Objects works, though it wouldn't work due to not having a parent then, and it couldn't inherit Phenric from his non-existant parent.

Also, you need to think of a way to give him at least 15 HD so he gets Psionic Teleport as an SLA.

[SavageWombat]

Doesn't "Monster of Legend" give a massive HD boost?

[rweird]

Doesn't "Monster of Legend" give a massive HD boost?

No, it doesn't, Titanic does, though it requires animal or vermin, and makes the creature gargantuan. A few templates give +1 HD, though if we have to go through 3 different books and make a creature with half a dozen templates, then I think it obviously isn't the MitD (not that a potted plant is likely in general).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Permanency on Animate Objects works, though it wouldn't work due to not having a parent then, and it couldn't inherit Phenric from his non-existant parent.

Make it half-anything (say, half-troll; although, ideally, this half-creature would give a form of locomotion) and that would just mean that one of his parents was the animated plant, and the other the psionic creature.

So far: Paragon phrenic pseudonatural half-bird (half-)animated bonsai.

GW

[EmperorSarda]

The only template I've seen that can cover the escape is Phrenic with Psychic Teleport, and that assumes the MitD's box was hit by a dimensional anchor and you figure out some manner in which MitD is touching O'chul and V.

Does the Phrenic template also give access to a Greater Teleport variant, because isn't that required to get O'Chul and V across an ocean?