Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[mawexzon]

Which is why I think that there should be two different entries. 1 for old Durkon, and another for vampire Durkon.

Because at least under Malack's control, they are two separate people. (Or have different alignments at least, given the different shading and coloring of the armor, holy symbol and what not. Sort of how Miko fell)

From the sources we have outside the comic, it's still ambiguous if he keeps his soul or not, if he keeps it, then he is the same person, just he has changed, we don't keep the past stats from the characters just because they have changed, even if it's a big change. But if Vampire Durkon just occupies his body and his soul is in the afterlife, only then I support it being listed separately from the original.

[KillingAScarab]

Which is why I think that there should be two different entries. 1 for old Durkon, and another for vampire Durkon.

Because at least under Malack's control, they are two separate people. (Or have different alignments at least, given the different shading and coloring of the armor, holy symbol and what not. Sort of how Miko fell)

While I tend to agree it is likely Durkon is now evil, he hasn't even spoken a word yet. Unless someone fluent in "Rraarghh!!" is in the audience, I think we need more appearances.

I was not around these forums when Miko fell. Did her entry receive such treatment?

[mawexzon]

Until we get more evidence about his soul, He is the same person, And he should be listed the same.

[EmperorSarda]

Until we get more evidence about his soul, He is the same person, And he should be listed the same.

He is not the same person.

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

Until Malack is destroyed (or frees him) he is not his own person, he doesn't have control over his choices, he is not free willed. So by definition, he is not the same person that he was.

[mawexzon]

He is not the same person.



Until Malack is destroyed (or frees him) he is not his own person, he doesn't have control over his choices, he is not free willed. So by definition, he is not the same person that he was.

Under that logic then Belkar isn't the same person while being dominated and should get separate stats.

[zimmerwald1915]

Okay, Durkon is now listed as vampire (he's too high level to become a vampire-spawn) and as level 14 per the discussion above. I expect the next comics to shed some light on changes, if any, to Durkon's alignment and cleric domains. Also, added Belkar's alias from the Kickstarter bonus story.

Speaking of which, the table should list strip 859 as establishing Durkon as level 14, not 15. And Durkon should be listed with 24 Wisdom, since he doesn't have any level 8 slots in which to prepare and from which to cast level 7 spells.

It's quite possible that Durkon was still level 13 in the fight with Nale and Sabine, so is it possible for a Durkon of that level and 24 Wisdom to lose two of his three level 7 spells (the third was the botched mass death ward) to enervation? I think it is, provided he took at least two negative levels, but the spell can be read as making a spellcaster lose one prepared spell of the highest level he can cast regardless of how many negative levels he gained...

So we have Durkon and and Belkar alloted to 14th and 15th character level respectively (though if we do ever start allotting in LA from templates, Durkon is now epic level), when do Nale and Z get their levels changed?

When the different person that curates that part of the thread gets around to it

[EmperorSarda]

Under that logic then Belkar isn't the same person while being dominated and should get separate stats.

Except Domination comes from a spell like ability and doesn't change anything about Belkar except that he is under the influence of a spell that be dispelled or waited out (albeit for 12 days or so). Being an enslaved vampire is part of what Durkon is now, part of the template added to him.

A dominated Belkar is still an evil halfling. An enslaved with no free will vampire Durkon is different from alive Priest of Thor regular Dwarf Durkon.

Granted, The Giant may very well change things up as he has every right to. But until he does, under RAW, Vampire Durkon is completely different than regular Durkon.

Edit: It does occur to me that Vampire Durkon's personality may be very much the same as regular Durkon. Sure, he cannot oppose Malack and has to follow his every command without question. But that does not mean he cannot be sad about it. They might very well be the same person. However... an additional spoiler entry should be made for pre-vampire Durkon for archival purposes. At least that is my vote.

[Flame of Anor]

I think that Regular Durkon and Vampire Durkon are different enough, even just going by story standards, to merit separate entries.

[Gitman00]

I was not around these forums when Miko fell. Did her entry receive such treatment?

The debates raged for months, nay, years. Did Miko's alignment slip to LN? Was killing Shojo a chaotic act, thus shifting her alignment to NG or TN? Was she LG until the moment she died, with her one evil act not enough to shift her alignment? Was killing Shojo a truly evil act, or just a breach of the paladin code because he was her liege lord? Was she ever LG, or do the Twelve Gods have a different standard for paladins than the core rules?

Some of the questions were answered in NCFTPB - she turned beige because she was wearing magic items that only work for paladins. The Giant has also said that her fall was so visually spectacular because her breach was so egregious that it warranted the Twelve Gods showing up personally to revoke her paladin status - it was compared to screwing up so badly that the CEO of the company comes to your cubicle to fire you.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think that Regular Durkon and Vampire Durkon are different enough, even just going by story standards, to merit separate entries.

After any change a character is different enough from their previous incarnations to merit a separate entry. It would be quite possible (though cumbersome) to generate statblocks for each member of the Order over each level that are about as complete as the ones we have now for their latest incarnations. The question is whether it's worthwhile to do so.

[SavageWombat]

Give it one more strip - let's see if the Giant answers our questions about Durkon's disposition.

[Rakoa]

After any change a character is different enough from their previous incarnations to merit a separate entry. It would be quite possible (though cumbersome) to generate statblocks for each member of the Order over each level that are about as complete as the ones we have now for their latest incarnations. The question is whether it's worthwhile to do so.

In this case, I would say yes. Level 8 Durkon and level 14 or 15 Durkon are not a great deal different. Vampire Durkon and level 14 or 15 Durkon are definitely quite different. At least keeping the old Durkon's statblock as a reference point would be good for people who come later and want to see what Durkon looked like before he became a Vampire. Really, it's just an extra statblock that likely won't be altered again, no work to maintain it. But it does preserve Durkon as he was for future readers.

[KillingAScarab]

Thank you, Gitman00, I only own the prequel books so I was unaware of that extra content. However, I was keener to learn whether Miko ever received two entries, one before she fell and one after. I specify this, as I would rather not open any old wounds.

After any change a character is different enough from their previous incarnations to merit a separate entry. It would be quite possible (though cumbersome) to generate statblocks for each member of the Order over each level that are about as complete as the ones we have now for their latest incarnations. The question is whether it's worthwhile to do so.

There's a wonderfully appropriate song that brings to mind.

♫Every time I move I'm in another dimension♫
♫Every thing I do changes what I want♫
♫I see a choice I make explode in thousands of pieces♫
♫Every time I choose I become a shard♫
- The Faint "Forever Growing Centipedes"

[Taelas]

In this case, I would say yes. Level 8 Durkon and level 14 or 15 Durkon are not a great deal different. Vampire Durkon and level 14 or 15 Durkon are definitely quite different. At least keeping the old Durkon's statblock as a reference point would be good for people who come later and want to see what Durkon looked like before he became a Vampire. Really, it's just an extra statblock that likely won't be altered again, no work to maintain it. But it does preserve Durkon as he was for future readers.

Should Elan have two different entries for after he became a Dashing Swordsman?
It seems to me that is akin to what you are suggesting. Durkon may be different, and more so than most of the characters, but the principle applies, I should think.

[EmperorSarda]

Should Elan have two different entries for after he became a Dashing Swordsman?
It seems to me that is akin to what you are suggesting. Durkon may be different, and more so than most of the characters, but the principle applies, I should think.

Elan didn't have to die to become a dashing swordsman. Nor did his creature type change.

[Taelas]

Elan didn't have to die to become a dashing swordsman. Nor did his creature type change.

Why does the manner in which the character changes matter?

[Blackdrop]

Why does the manner in which the character changes matter?

Because it does. When Elan became a Dashing Swordsman, he literally only gained a level, with none of his other bonuses radically changing. Adding a template to a character is a much more extreme change and massively alters a character, including around a dozen new abilities and qualities, new HD, saves, skill bonuses and radically different stats.

Personally, I'm torn on the issue. I see the logic behind keeping the old stat block, but I always thought that the point of this thread was to keep an up-to-date tally of a character. That combined with the fact that Living!Durkon isn't likely to come back, I'd vote for just the one block for Vampire!Durkon.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The "dozen new abilities and qualities, new HD, saves, skill bonuses and radically different stats" matter more than the dying, I think.

[Alaris]

Since you labeled Durkon as a "Vampire" in his entry, shouldn't his Constitution be changed to -? Vampires are undead, and thus have no constitution.

[Flame of Anor]

After any change a character is different enough from their previous incarnations to merit a separate entry. It would be quite possible (though cumbersome) to generate statblocks for each member of the Order over each level that are about as complete as the ones we have now for their latest incarnations. The question is whether it's worthwhile to do so.

How about we just archive Durkon's stat block from immediately before his death? The main stat block can continue to be the current Durkon, i.e. a vampire, just put the old one under a spoiler tag somewhere.

[Emanick]

How about we just archive Durkon's stat block from immediately before his death? The main stat block can continue to be the current Durkon, i.e. a vampire, just put the old one under a spoiler tag somewhere.

I fully second this. The old Durkon is no longer with us, but he was still a main character for nearly 900 strips and deserves his own entry far more than, say, Samantha.

[ti'esar]

How about we just archive Durkon's stat block from immediately before his death? The main stat block can continue to be the current Durkon, i.e. a vampire, just put the old one under a spoiler tag somewhere.

I'd be in favor of this as well.

[RMS Oceanic]

I was letting discussion go back and forth for a while while the nine comics were going on and promising new information with every strip. Now they're done:

- With Durkon and Belkar's level lowered, I have lowered Tarquin, Nale, Z and Kilkil's levels
- I have officially dubbed Malack's staff as the "Staff of Obscure Spells"
- As Kurald explained, I am not assigning an alignment to Malack at this time to avoid speculation about his actions. I have my opinion about what he is, but it hasn't been mechanically proven or explicitly stated. However, his use of Bolster Undead proves he is Non-Good, so I can make an entry for that.
- While I think there should only be a single readily visible statblock for Durkon, putting the old stats in a spoiler tag sounds good.
- I know the default rules decree Durkon is Evil now, but I wonder if it would be a better idea to leave his alignment blank until he becomes free willed and we see how he behaves?

[LuPuWei]

- While I think there should only be a single readily visible statblock for Durkon, putting the old stats in a spoiler tag sounds good.
- I know the default rules decree Durkon is Evil now, but I wonder if it would be a better idea to leave his alignment blank until he becomes free willed and we see how he behaves?

I agree with both of these points.

Durkon's old statblock should be archived so we don't lose any information (pain-stakingly gathered) for reference and in the (maybe unlikely) event that he ever gets un-vamped.

And if we can't agree on the alignment of one vampire based on race, we should probably wait before labling any new ones.

[SavageWombat]

Somebody check my math on this:

Belkar (15th level?) is down 8 levels from being drained 4 times. (4 panels show the black aura hands.) That's -40 HP.

I assume that "don't drink the last drop" would mean draining his blood to 1 CON. That means that Belkar's average HP/die drops from 5.5 to 1.5.

15 x 1.5 = 27.5. 27.5 - 40= -12.5. Belkar would be dying or dead.

Interestingly enough, the variant Toughness feat that many use would give him +15 HP, just enough to survive. Otherwise, he needs to have rolled above average on HP, or have a source of extra HP other than CON.

The alternative seems to be to say that since there are two panels of blood drinking, that's only 2d4 CON drain total, which would be survivable.

[SinsI]

And Durkon should be listed with 24 Wisdom, since he doesn't have any level 8 slots in which to prepare and from which to cast level 7 spells.

No, he shouldn't. Magical items can give him extra 7th level spell slots just as easily as 24 Wisdom can.

[RMS Oceanic]

Somebody check my math on this:

Belkar (15th level?) is down 8 levels from being drained 4 times. (4 panels show the black aura hands.) That's -40 HP.

I assume that "don't drink the last drop" would mean draining his blood to 1 CON. That means that Belkar's average HP/die drops from 5.5 to 1.5.

15 x 1.5 = 27.5. 27.5 - 40= -12.5. Belkar would be dying or dead.

Interestingly enough, the variant Toughness feat that many use would give him +15 HP, just enough to survive. Otherwise, he needs to have rolled above average on HP, or have a source of extra HP other than CON.

The alternative seems to be to say that since there are two panels of blood drinking, that's only 2d4 CON drain total, which would be survivable.

You're forgetting the rule that as long as you have 1 CON, you always gain at least 1 hit point per level regardless of what you roll. Belkar may not be on 1, but he's definitely paler, like Durkon in his final rounds, so I think Durkon took more than one sip, and Belkar will have at least 15hp, maybe a little more from his barbarian dice.

Whoops, misread : Where do you see him being hit four time? I see Malack touch him once and Durkon touch him one. That's four levels and -20 hitpoints.

[Flame of Anor]

Durkon's old statblock should be archived so we don't lose any information (pain-stakingly gathered) for reference

Actually, it's pains-takingly. You "take pains" to do something, you don't "stake pain".

[ti'esar]

Actually, it's pains-takingly. You "take pains" to do something, you don't "stake pain".

Appropriate a turn of phrase as that might be under the circumstances.

[Silverionmox]

Also keep in mind that the OOTS will at least try to reverse Durkon's vampirism, should they get the chance to do so. His old stats may come into use again before the comic ends.