Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Kish]

However, his use of Bolster Undead proves he is Non-Good, so I can make an entry for that.

N-n-not technically. The vampires template description says they automatically lose the Turn Undead ability and replace it with the Rebuke Undead ability (which includes Bolster Undead).

Not that I want Malack's entry to say he might be good (yeesh, I find it incredible that there are still people who would say he's not evil...), but if you must have strict mechanics to prove an alignment, you can't based on what you're currently going by for that one.

[SavageWombat]

Where do you see him being hit four time? I see Malack touch him once and Durkon touch him one. That's four levels and -20 hitpoints.

I see Malack and Durkon each touching him twice, because it's in two separate panels for each character. Sort of like counting sword swings.

[Fitzclowningham]

I'd say an argument can be made for vampires keeping the same soul from how the template works: you make changes to the attributes of an existing person instead of getting all new ones. As far as physical attributes go, I can see basing Str (and to a lesser extent, Dex) on the body of the now-vamp. However, for the mental attributes, why would they depend on the pre-vamp scores at all unless his soul were still somehow involved?

[EmperorSarda]

I'd say an argument can be made for vampires keeping the same soul from how the template works: you make changes to the attributes of an existing person instead of getting all new ones. As far as physical attributes go, I can see basing Str (and to a lesser extent, Dex) on the body of the now-vamp. However, for the mental attributes, why would they depend on the pre-vamp scores at all unless his soul were still somehow involved?

There are many magic items that influence charisma, wisdom and intelligence. That is the not the soul. Rather, influencing them does not change the soul to be something different.

Right now Vampire Durkon's soul is either missing or suppressed until either Malack dies or releases Durkon from Thrallhood, because Durkon currently has no free will.

[Kurald Galain]

Does anyone have a good smily for Vampire Durkon?

[Flame of Anor]

Appropriate a turn of phrase as that might be under the circumstances.

Ha! Very true.

[Kazyan]

Whoops, misread : Where do you see him being hit four time? I see Malack touch him once and Durkon touch him one. That's four levels and -20 hitpoints.

With 20 HP drained and at CON 1, Belkar should have 1.375*14 + 2.75 - 20 = 2 HP right now, assuming Ranger 14/Barbarian 1. Omitting math for Hit Dice averages at new CON.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've been clearing out my computer and I came across the document I used way back when to try and track Roy's XP since his death. I hadn't updated it since strip 808, and thought I'd dust it off. Here's what I found:

{table=head]Strip|Encounter Description|Individual CRs and ECLs of Combatants|Roy's Starting XP|Roy's Ending XP
683|6 advanced (11 HD) Giant Stag Beetles, 26 thri-kreen, & Buggy Lou vs. Haley, Belkar, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Durkon, & Roy|6 CR 5 creatures + 26 CR 1 creatures + 1 CR 2 creature vs. 1 ECL 15 character + 3 ECL 14 characters + 1 ECL 13 character + 1 ECL 12 character|72,000|72,300
688|1 Purple Worm vs. Haley, Belkar, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Durkon, & Roy|1 CR 12 creature vs. 1 ECL 15 character + 3 ECL 14 characters + 1 ECL 13 character + 1 ECL 12 character|72,300|72,900
695|1 shadow evocation trap vs. Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius, & Roy|1 CR 9 trap vs. 1 ECL 15 character + 2 ECL 14 characters + 1 ECL 12 character|72,900|73,200
808|Thog vs. Roy|1 CR 11 creature vs. 1 ECL 12 character|73,200|75,600
862|Tarquin, Nale, Zz'dtri, Sabine, Kilkil, & 5 mummies vs. Belkar, Haley, Durkon, Elan, & Roy|1 CR 16 creature + 2 CR 15 creatures + 1 CR 10 creature + 6 CR 5 creatures vs. 2 ECL 15 characters + 2 ECL 14 characters + 1 ECL 12 character|75,600|83,520[/table]

A character needs 78,000 XP to level from 12 to 13. By fights alone (that is, discounting roleplaying and other ad-hoc XP adjustments which would only increase his total), and assigning the various Linear Guilders the lowest CRs this thread permits (again, any adjustment would only increase Roy's XP), Roy has more than enough XP to level to 13. Leveling in OOTS does not take place without a rest, so I do not believe Roy should be listed as level 13 until he takes one. But once he does, I believe we will have grounds to list him as level 13.

[SinsI]

N-n-not technically. The vampires template description says they automatically lose the Turn Undead ability and replace it with the Rebuke Undead ability (which includes Bolster Undead).

Not that I want Malack's entry to say he might be good (yeesh, I find it incredible that there are still people who would say he's not evil...), but if you must have strict mechanics to prove an alignment, you can't based on what you're currently going by for that one.

No, it does prove that he is non-Good - Vampire template says that because it also says they become Evil.
Rebuke Undead is a 100% proof that he is not Good.

[Draz74]

I really don't see any downside to keeping an archived copy of Durkon's pre-vampire stats.

Living!Durkon isn't likely to come back,

Why not? We've already had one character brought back by a Resurrection spell. It could happen again.

Appropriate a turn of phrase as that might be under the circumstances.

Indeed, I'm willing to assume that it was "pun WIN."

[hamishspence]

Leveling in OOTS does not take place without a rest, so I do not believe Roy should be listed as level 13 until he takes one.

How about here, with Belkar?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html

admittedly he was hit with a negative level right afterward.

[LuPuWei]

Actually, it's pains-takingly. You "take pains" to do something, you don't "stake pain".

Ah, but that takes the edge off the phrase... You learn something new every day...

[zimmerwald1915]

How about here, with Belkar?

Okay, new theory. Characters level when they remember to check their XP and find that it's above the minimum required to level. This fits the inn scene, Belkar's level-up scene, and allows for off-panel leveling. In that case, Roy could be listed as level 13 now based on XP accrued, and we can assume he either checked his total off-panel some time after strip 862. It's not like Fighter 13 gives him anything but a point of BAB anyway.

[SinsI]

Okay, new theory. Characters level when they remember to check their XP and find that it's above the minimum required to level. This fits the inn scene, Belkar's level-up scene, and allows for off-panel leveling. In that case, Roy could be listed as level 13 now based on XP accrued, and we can assume he either checked his total off-panel some time after strip 862. It's not like Fighter 13 gives him anything but a point of BAB anyway.

Characters level up when they reach the appropriate XP, with a nice "ding" sound notifying them of the fact. In the first comic you mentioned they just happened to be awarded Quest completition XP while resting after completing it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Characters level up when they reach the appropriate XP, with a nice "ding" sound notifying them of the fact. In the first comic you mentioned they just happened to be awarded Quest completition XP while resting after completing it.

Check again. In the comic in question Haley levels offpanel after saying she checked her total, and that story award explanation is her speculating about why. With the benefit of hindsight (and possibly the benefit of retconjuration, since Xykon and Redcloak weren't necessarily conceived of as being epic and near-epic respectively at the time) we can say it was from defeating an encounter with an EL far above the OOTS' ECL. Similarly, Roy, Elan, V, and Durkon all level after checking their totals, not automatically, though surely they had not received XP between the Redmountain Hills and the small town. Belkar then checks his total and finds it wanting. Leveling isn't automatic, but dependent on the characters being aware that they should level.

We are not notified by an on-panel "ding" anywhere but strips 12, 124/125, and 515. Speaking of 515, the panel before he "ding"s Belkar was established as watching his XP total. Every other levelup we've identified has been off-panel and thus "ding"less.

[LuisDantas]

I really don't see any downside to keeping an archived copy of Durkon's pre-vampire stats.

Nor do I. And is there really a need for spoilers for his living stats? If spoilers are called for, it is to hide from new readers that he will eventually become a vampire, not to hide that he was initially a living dwarf.

[Rakoa]

Nor do I. And is there really a need for spoilers for his living stats? If spoilers are called for, it is to hide from new readers that he will eventually become a vampire, not to hide that he was initially a living dwarf.

The spoiler tags aren't because his stats are a spoiler, it's just to keep the list compact and tidy looking. Living Durkon is in the past, but they will still keep his statblock. But because it is outdated, there is no reason to have it fully visible with all of the others.

[dps]

I see Malack and Durkon each touching him twice, because it's in two separate panels for each character. Sort of like counting sword swings.

I thought that it was accepted that we can't equate panels with rounds, that it was possible that several rounds could occur in just one panel at times, and conversely, a single round could stretch over multiple panels.

[KillingAScarab]

Leveling isn't automatic, but dependent on the characters being aware that they should level.

There's a test this hypothesis doesn't seem to pass. On the second page in the second panel of Crossbones, Belkar is surprised to find he has leveled and gained the evasion class feature.

[Douglas]

There's a test this hypothesis doesn't seem to pass. On the second page in the second panel of Crossbones, Belkar is surprised to find he has leveled and gained the evasion class feature.

That does not indicate he didn't know his level, just that he didn't know he had evasion. This could easily be explained by him just not paying attention to what class features his class gets. He seems to only care about two weapon fighting and (presumably) favored enemy, it would be entirely in character for him to not notice he had anything else until the universe forcefully points it out, even if that takes several levels after acquiring it.

[SpacemanSpif]

Is there any evidence other than Durkon's remaining spells that rules out his being level 15? Because it seems to be that it's possible he cast one more 5th level spell and two 8th level spells off screen. Certainly Discern Location could have been useful earlier in the day.

[Shale]

If Durkon had 8th level spells, he would have had access to Greater Planar Ally, which would allow him to call something tougher than a Deva to defend the gate.

[EmperorSarda]

Is there any evidence other than Durkon's remaining spells that rules out his being level 15? Because it seems to be that it's possible he cast one more 5th level spell and two 8th level spells off screen. Certainly Discern Location could have been useful earlier in the day.

It doesn't matter what could be cast off screen, unless it is mentioned in comic. If there's no proof of having cast a spell, then there is no point arguing it.

[SpacemanSpif]

It doesn't matter what could be cast off screen, unless it is mentioned in comic. If there's no proof of having cast a spell, then there is no point arguing it.

Right, but by the same token, his not having 8th level spells to cast in the one comic where he mentions it is not proof that he never had them available. If this line of thinking bears out, and there isn't other evidence, we would list him as level 14-15.

Re: Greater Planar Ally- If Durkon decided to prepare a different 8th level spell instead, one that he thought at the beginning of the day could be more useful, he wouldn't be able to cast Greater Planar Ally that day. It's more compelling that he would have mentioned the possibility in his plans for the next day in 865, but again, just because the possibility isn't proven doesn't mean that it's disproven.

[Shale]

Yeah, I was specifically thinking of his plans for the next day. He was discussing what he would do with a fully refreshed spell list, and if he had an idea better than summoning a fully manifested angel that also casts 9th-level cleric spells, he'd probably have mentioned it.

[137beth]

Yeah, I was specifically thinking of his plans for the next day. He was discussing what he would do with a fully refreshed spell list, and if he had an idea better than summoning a fully manifested angel that also casts 9th-level cleric spells, he'd probably have mentioned it.

That...hardly seems proof that he has no 8th level spells. Just that he isn't using his tools in the most effective way. Or that he still wouldn't be able to cast greater planar ally very many times.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That...hardly seems proof that he has no 8th level spells. Just that he isn't using his tools in the most effective way. Or that he still wouldn't be able to cast greater planar ally very many times.

So why stop at 14-15 level? On the reasoning that "he isn't using his tools in the most effective way", he could have level 11 spell slots that he has been using to prepare lesser heals.

No, this is like the idea that we should allow for Durkon to have magic items that would give him flexibility. The evidence is that he doesn't have 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th spell slots, and thus that he is level 14, which means that Belkar is level 15, and that in the one panel where he swings once too many times, he actually used two rounds: one to move next to Roy and hit him once, whereupon Roy did nothing (surprise round?) and then a full attack round while Roy was still grappling with the idea that Belkar wants to be chosen for the fight.

Grey Wolf

[Dr. Gamera]

The evidence is that he doesn't have 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th spell slots, and thus that he is level 14, which means that Belkar is level 15, and that in the one panel where he swings once too many times, he actually used two rounds: one to move next to Roy and hit him once, whereupon Roy did nothing (surprise round?) and then a full attack round while Roy was still grappling with the idea that Belkar wants to be chosen for the fight.

And then Roy made his grapple check.

(I'll be here all week, try the rdjy.)

[SpacemanSpif]

So why stop at 14-15 level? On the reasoning that "he isn't using his tools in the most effective way", he could have level 11 spell slots that he has been using to prepare lesser heals.

No, this is like the idea that we should allow for Durkon to have magic items that would give him flexibility. The evidence is that he doesn't have 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th spell slots, and thus that he is level 14, which means that Belkar is level 15, and that in the one panel where he swings once too many times, he actually used two rounds: one to move next to Roy and hit him once, whereupon Roy did nothing (surprise round?) and then a full attack round while Roy was still grappling with the idea that Belkar wants to be chosen for the fight.

Grey Wolf

Presumably, the reason for the upper limit of 15 is the effects we saw from Durkon's Holy Word. We do have some independent information on the levels of Nale, Z, and Belkar, right?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Presumably, the reason for the upper limit of 15 is the effects we saw from Durkon's Holy Word. We do have some independent information on the levels of Nale, Z, and Belkar, right?

I'll be honest: I'm quite lost in this discussion. No-one has mentioned Nale and Z, though, so I'm guessing they are unknowns other than "Durkon +1". Belkar's whole argument seems to rest on the number of attacks in the arena, which I argue could be two rounds.

Where I get lost is in the "how many level 7 spells Durkon has cast". Some people say he has cast too many, others seem to explain it with a combination of domain and other stuff, maybe with high WIS, and another faction seem to insist that he must have used a level 8 slot for a level 7 spell. I don't know who is right, who is wrong, and who has accepted someone else's explanation.

I can't weight on that issue, so I weight in the one I feel I am qualified: evidence. There is only so many assumptions of what hasn't been shown and has been cast/purchased off panel that this thread should allow for. The idea that Durkon would use a level 8 slot for a level 7 spell, or that he has an item requiring up to a third of the total gold he has accumulated thus far, seems too far-fetched for this thread, even if I could accept it anywhere else.

Grey Wolf