Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Vinyadan]

I think Belkar knows what a sextant is, or, at least, that's not the problem. He simply failed his listen check, a lot of times. Roy, frustrated, had to use a paraphrasis to make him understand what he was talking about.
Or he also doesn't know what a cartographer ist. I think he lacks the common sense to understand that he misunderstood what was being said, which should work well with an horribly low wisdom score, as well as to desume sense by context.
Or he could be playing dumb.

[Dark Matter]

I think Belkar knows what a sextant is...

Why should he? His ranking in Survival is zero. We know this.

The issue is whether Roy's being skilled with a Sextant means he's got 1+ dots in Survival. I'd say yes, and I find "1" to be unlikely.

That's sort of an issue which applies anytime we set a maximum based on a strip which took place at least 1 in-comic day ago. Unless we are certain their level has not gone up since we gained evidence about some maximum, we can't really set any upper bounds.

There's a difference between saying we can't say for absolute certainty and saying we know nothing.

At one point in time, Belkar didn't have a 18+ strength. We can link to that, and the moment we find evidence he's changed we can change it.

[Flame of Anor]

It's always going to be the case that we don't know how up-to-the-minute our facts are; that comes with the territory. I don't think it's unreasonable to list maximum values, given that everyone understands they could be already outdated.

[dps]

I think Belkar knows what a sextant is, or, at least, that's not the problem. He simply failed his listen check, a lot of times. Roy, frustrated, had to use a paraphrasis to make him understand what he was talking about.
Or he also doesn't know what a cartographer ist. I think he lacks the common sense to understand that he misunderstood what was being said, which should work well with an horribly low wisdom score, as well as to desume sense by context.
Or he could be playing dumb.

FWIW, I think that there's a very high chance that Belkar is just playing dumb in that strip for comic effect.

[SowZ]

Why should he? His ranking in Survival is zero. We know this.

The issue is whether Roy's being skilled with a Sextant means he's got 1+ dots in Survival. I'd say yes, and I find "1" to be unlikely.

There's a difference between saying we can't say for absolute certainty and saying we know nothing.

At one point in time, Belkar didn't have a 18+ strength. We can link to that, and the moment we find evidence he's changed we can change it.

I disagree. See, when Miko admitted only having 1 rank in Survival, Roy didn't suggest comparing his and Miko's wisdom modifier. I find it highly likely Roy has more Wisdom than Miko. If he had more than 1 rank, or even 1 rank, he would have offered to track. It is entirely possible he has since grabbed one rank of it. But if he hadn't bothered to put 1 rank in it back then, he probably hasn't focused on it enough to put 4 skill points+ into it.

[white lancer]

I disagree. See, when Miko admitted only having 1 rank in Survival, Roy didn't suggest comparing his and Miko's wisdom modifier. I find it highly likely Roy has more Wisdom than Miko. If he had more than 1 rank, or even 1 rank, he would have offered to track. It is entirely possible he has since grabbed one rank of it. But if he hadn't bothered to put 1 rank in it back then, he probably hasn't focused on it enough to put 4 skill points+ into it.

Even if Roy has a higher Survival modifier than Miko due to higher Wisdom, I very much doubt he had the Track feat.

[Vinyadan]

So, if I understood correctly, the objective is to show that Roy has ranks in Survival because he can use a sextant, while Belkar, who doesn't have any points, doesn't recognize the word?

I think this thing cannot work.

1. Belkar doesn't actually say that he doesn't know what a sextant is. Roy's frustrated explanation is given, to make him understand which word he is saying.

2. The idea behind the joke is, "look at how bad I am at making Listen checks!" This is even in the title of the strip. It's more about "Belkar=moron who cannot even notice his misunderstandings, because he doesn't have the common sense to think he may have got a word wrong and look for possible other meanings" than "Belkar=ignorant". Have we had any joke about his ignorance? At the moment, I don't remember any, but the one I will mention later.

3. Some strips later, we have the cartographer telling Roy where he can find a sax tent. I don't think that's because he doesn't know what he is talking about, as he probably has at least one in stock. At the same time, in the same strip, Belkar's comment actually makes me think that he didn't know what a cartographer is.

In the end: I would not try to take anything from this scene as a proof for someone being trained or not, because:

• All that happened was meant to make people laugh (and create some narrative situation, such as Haley running away and being all secretive)
• The joke was actually something else.
• As always with Belkar, we don't know if he should be taken seriously.

Or, you can suppose that the cartographer didn't know what a sextant is, because he didn't have any point in the skill. But really, this looks more like hearing something wrong to me. Even if he didn't know how to use a sextant (as a trader and no traveler), he surely knew what one is.

[SowZ]

Even if Roy has a higher Survival modifier than Miko due to higher Wisdom, I very much doubt he had the Track feat.

Yeah, that's right, Miko took that feat.

[Flame of Anor]

I agree with Vinyadan on this. It's too vague; all we can say for sure is that Roy does not have the Track feat.

[Kish]

So, if I understood correctly, the objective is to show that Roy has ranks in Survival because he can use a sextant, while Belkar, who doesn't have any points, doesn't recognize the word?

No comparison to Belkar necessary. My case, at least, is that Roy has ranks in (some kind of skill) because using a sextant is a trained skill, like riding or cooking.

[Chantelune]

Considering Belkar had no idea what a sextant was, It can't be common knowledge.

More to the point, the cartographer didn't know about a sextant either and thought Roy asked for a "sax tent". Might be a better proof that it's not common knowledge, though it still possible that it was just for a punchline.

[zimmerwald1915]

No comparison to Belkar necessary. My case, at least, is that Roy has ranks in (some kind of skill) because using a sextant is a trained skill, like riding or cooking.

I've used a sextant (having done no navigation previously, except by landmarks), and it's depressingly easy. All you do is move a lever until a preselected celestial body lines up with the horizon or another preselected celestial body, then read the number the lever is pointing to, which tells you the degrees between the two objects. The hard part is not using the instrument, it's selecting the celestial bodies and then figuring out what that number means for your latitude and longitude. To do that, one references an almanac, which Roy has here.

[Emanick]

No comparison to Belkar necessary. My case, at least, is that Roy has ranks in (some kind of skill) because using a sextant is a trained skill, like riding or cooking.

There's a difference between knowing something not everyone does and having actual trained ranks in a D&D skill; I believe the Player's Handbook says something to this effect, although I don't have my copy in my dorm with me. Yes, using a sextant may not be completely intuitive, but from what Zimmerwald says (and from my own spotty knowledge of sextants), there's no reason to think that it would take more than a few hours to master the use of such an instrument. And if using any specialized device that took a few hours to get used to required a PC to take skill ranks, I think D&D would have a much more difficult time being a "realistic" simulation of how real people learn.

[Crusher]

I wouldn't be surprised if Roy did not have any ranks in Survival back in No Cure, but after the experience Roy finally got tired of relying on Belkar to try to track things (or even generally be useful outside) and took a rank in Survival.

[SavageWombat]

Couldn't you allow Roy to have a rank in KN:Geography to explain the sextant instead of Survival?

[Peelee]

I don't quite understand why this is not a common-sense thing. Do you know how to use a sextant? Because I don't. Do you not know how to use a sextant but you're confident you could immediately figure it out upon picking it up? That's definitely not the case for me.

(And yes, I saw that the question about whether Roy being able to use it can be assumed in a D&D setting, but, it's clearly trained, and not universally like "how to thwack someone with a quarterstaff" either.

Perhaps I can facilitate your understanding. It is not listed under his stats on the main page (despite your claim that it is "clearly trained," which should be proof enough, but alas). In asking if it needed to be trained in a skill (and providing a few examples) or not, I was asking if there was any reason for it to not be listed in his stats, and if not, to include it. Unless you see some other purpose for posing such a question in the CLG thread?

Would you really expect every character in every fantasy novel you've ever read to know how to use a sextant? Including the ones who've never seen the sea and the ones [barbarians] who didn't learn how to read?)

As the only fantasy novel I've ever read has been The Hobbit, I'll assume this is hypothetical. There is a difference between "expecting every character to know something" and "not being surprised at all if a character knows something." Hobbits, according to the book, loathe adventure, and are quite content in staying firmly where they are; however, Bilbo was quite smart (and seemingly educated) and apparently enjoyed cartography, so while I would not blindly expect him to know how to us a sextant, I would certainly not be surprised if he did.

[Kish]

As the only fantasy novel I've ever read has been The Hobbit, I'll assume this is hypothetical. There is a difference between "expecting every character to know something" and "not being surprised at all if a character knows something." Hobbits, according to the book, loathe adventure, and are quite content in staying firmly where they are; however, Bilbo was quite smart (and seemingly educated) and apparently enjoyed cartography, so while I would not blindly expect him to know how to us a sextant, I would certainly not be surprised if he did.

That would be a reason for Bilbo to have skill ranks, not for knowing how to use a sextant not to indicate skill ranks.

However, I will defer to zimmerwald1915's greater knowledge of what's involved in using a sextant. (And I will note, as an aside, that even if, as I argued for earlier, we went with Roy's sextant use indicating points in Something I don't see any way to determine exactly what Something is.)

[Peelee]

That would be a reason for Bilbo to have skill ranks, not for knowing how to use a sextant not to indicate skill ranks.

I disagree, but I also have no desire to argue The Hobbit minutea and their interpretations through 3.5 rules, so I'll not argue this any further.

However, I will defer to zimmerwald1915's greater knowledge of what's involved in using a sextant.

I do agree that Zimmerwald seems to be the reigning authority here, due to actually having used a sextant. However, as to your aside,

(And I will note, as an aside, that even if, as I argued for earlier, we went with Roy's sextant use indicating points in Something I don't see any way to determine exactly what Something is.)

If I may be so bold, I would suggest a sourcebook as a way to determing exactly what that Something is. Specifically, page 108 of Stormwrack details that a sextant provides a +4 circumstance bonus to Knowledge: Geography checks for navigation.

[hamishspence]

Are Knowledge (Geography) checks used instead of Survival checks to navigate at sea?

I suppose a desert could be thought of as a "sea of sand".

[Peelee]

Are Knowledge (Geography) checks used instead of Survival checks to navigate at sea?

I suppose a desert could be thought of as a "sea of sand".

A sandy desert as they were in would be equally featureless as a body of water, so I would say "yes" to this, though I have yet to find anything to specifically detail it as such. If you have the Stormwrack book, page 86 details how Knowledge: Geography plays into navigation (with a breakdown of course setting and piloting), and at the end states that being lost on sea is very similar to being lost on land.

[hamishspence]

Sandstorm does have ships that can be used to sail across sand- so it would fit.

[Peelee]

Sandstorm does have ships that can be used to sail across sand- so it would fit.

Ya know, I can't believe I completely forgot about Sandstorm. I am properly shamed. Good catch! That does seem to fit quite nicely. It looks like we're starting to have a fairly compelling argument for Roy having Knowledge (Geography) at this point.

[SowZ]

I Stormwrack says it is a geography check, and Knowledge can't be used untrained, doesn't that prove that Roy has 1 rank it? What further arguments could be made?

[Flame of Anor]

I Stormwrack says it is a geography check, and Knowledge can't be used untrained, doesn't that prove that Roy has 1 rank it? What further arguments could be made?

That sounds like it could be convincing. What, precisely, does Stormwrack say is a geography check?

[Peelee]

That sounds like it could be convincing. What, precisely, does Stormwrack say is a geography check?

Stormwrack states that Knowledge (Geography) covers navigation and piloting. It states the science of navigation requires a distinctly different set of training from sailing.

EDIT: As hamishspence points out below, the book breaks navigation into two parts, piloting and course setting. The first sentence claims that navigation and piloting fall under Know Geo. Not sure why they would say "navigation and piloting," and then break navigation into two parts, one of which is piloting, but there ya go.

[hamishspence]

"Course setting" and "piloting".

Page 86 of Stormwrack- you make a Knowledge (geography) check to Set A course (are you heading the right direction) and every day, a Piloting check (also Knowledge (Geography)) to establish your position and make routine corrections to keep yourself on course.

If you fail the check on 3 consecutive days, you are Lost.

Sandstorm doesn't say anything about new skill uses.

[SowZ]

Stormwrack states that Knowledge (Geography) covers navigation and piloting. It states the science of navigation requires a distinctly different set of training from sailing.

EDIT: As hamishspence points out below, the book breaks navigation into two parts, piloting and course setting. The first sentence claims that navigation and piloting fall under Know Geo. Not sure why they would say "navigation and piloting," and then break navigation into two parts, one of which is piloting, but there ya go.

But isn't the main argument that a sextant provides a bonus to Geography checks? Since geography checks cannot be used untrained, it would be a useless tool to purchase and impossible to use without 1 rank.

[ReaderAt2046]

But isn't the main argument that a sextant provides a bonus to Geography checks? Since geography checks cannot be used untrained, it would be a useless tool to purchase and impossible to use without 1 rank.

And we know Roy has cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Architecture), so he probably has a few in other Knowledges as well, especially since Geo is much more useful for an adventurer.

[Peelee]

But isn't the main argument that a sextant provides a bonus to Geography checks? Since geography checks cannot be used untrained, it would be a useless tool to purchase and impossible to use without 1 rank.

Indeed. I'm arguing in favor of this, not against it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

especially since Geo is much more useful for an adventurer.

This is not a correct argument (i.e. it does not bolster the case). Roy, like the rest of the characters, didn't choose their skills "because they are good for an adventurer". Roy never planned to be an adventurer: his dad dropped the quest on his lap unannounced. He got his skills from a university where, like many university goers, he picked the easiest classes to pass (e.g. goat herding, IIRC).

Grey Wolf