Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Kurald Galain]

I noticed that Durkon has Deck of cards listed as a possession. But does not havelisted a Parcheesi Board.

Good catch, I'll add that.

[SavageWombat]

I recognize it's possible the board belongs to the hotel. But then surely it's just as possible that it was Hilgya's deck of cards?

Durkon and Belkar are also playing cards in a Dragon strip. So it's most likely his cards.

[Tomada]

Hey, I noticed that Roy doesn't have the Improved Sunder feat listed, although he sunder without provoking attacks of opportunity here, and here.

Was this discussed before?

[Living Oxymoron]

Speaking of which, shouldn't Belkar have the following aliases: The Belkster, Death's Lil' Helper, and A Sexy Shoeless God of War?

This comment was almost overshadowed by the discussion regarding Malack's nature and I think it's very good point, at least for the two first aliases, since an alias from a extra story was included in Belkar's stats, so why not include these which come from the main comics?

[Flame of Anor]

Hey, I noticed that Roy doesn't have the Improved Sunder feat listed, although he sunder without provoking attacks of opportunity here, and here.

Was this discussed before?

Ooh, good one. I agree.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I dunno, in neither case is Thog in a position to make an attack.

[SowZ]

Shouldn't Hilgya be listed as Non-Lawful, Non-Good? Isn't Loki established as a CE god? Or is he just listed as a Chaotic God?

[Douglas]

Hey, I noticed that Roy doesn't have the Improved Sunder feat listed, although he sunder without provoking attacks of opportunity here, and here.

Was this discussed before?

I'm not sure if that exact specific incident has been discussed before, but I do remember discussion that in general the Giant seems to not care about showing every AoO that the rules say should happen, and that the lack of a visible AoO is therefore not strong evidence of anything.

[SowZ]

I'm not sure if that exact specific incident has been discussed before, but I do remember discussion that in general the Giant seems to not care about showing every AoO that the rules say should happen, and that the lack of a visible AoO is therefore not strong evidence of anything.

Can we count his sunder attempts in the series? I don't remember many. The lack of AoO may be more indicative if Roy frequently uses Sunder. I don't remember any other sunders off hand, though, so IF Roy had it it means he didn't use it much or he recently nabbed it. Roy DID make two succesful Sunder attempts in a row, though. One on a large boulder and one on a, (possibly decently magical,) Greataxe. So he very well could have Improved Sunder.

[Mike Havran]

Can we count his sunder attempts in the series? I don't remember many. The lack of AoO may be more indicative if Roy frequently uses Sunder. I don't remember any other sunders off hand, though, so IF Roy had it it means he didn't use it much or he recently nabbed it. Roy DID make two succesful Sunder attempts in a row, though. One on a large boulder and one on a, (possibly decently magical,) Greataxe. So he very well could have Improved Sunder.

Roy also sundered Kaboom's pistol here. I think Improved Sunder is likely.

[hamishspence]

worship of an FR deity in a non-FR world wouldn't go over too well.

Technically Merrshaulk is a generic "monster deity" - he exists in both Greyhawk and Faerun. We don't have any evidence of him existing in OoTS though- and since Tiamat's the only deity we've seen for kobolds so far (rather than the normal Kurtulmak)- and she's part of the Western Pantheon- maybe there aren't monster deities besides ascended ones like The Dark One?

[Chantelune]

Good point. And, of course, Shojo is listed as Chaotic Good on Belkar's word. So...as long as the thread maintains a "treat things characters say as authoritative if not contradicted" policy, I see no room to argue that Malack should be listed as a lizardfolk. There's no ambiguity about the fact that he said he is one.

I remember the Giant comparing Tarquin and Shojo's way of ruling by stating them as being respectively Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good. Can't remember in which thread exactly, though.

[Thrax]

Shouldn't Hilgya be listed as Non-Lawful, Non-Good? Isn't Loki established as a CE god? Or is he just listed as a Chaotic God?

Depending on how different people approach Loki, he may be CN or CE. If he is CE (as is most commonly said) his clerics could potentially be CN, CE or NE. If he was CN, remove NE from that list and add CG and NN.

[hamishspence]

I remember the Giant comparing Tarquin and Shojo's way of ruling by stating them as being respectively Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good. Can't remember in which thread exactly, though.

In this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post14830425

it doesn't actually answer one way or another- it's only portrayed as the difference between Lawful and Chaotic.

[Mike Havran]

I remember the Giant comparing Tarquin and Shojo's way of ruling by stating them as being respectively Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good. Can't remember in which thread exactly, though.

No, the Giant only mentioned their different approach towards ruling a state. He didn't say anything about their alignment.

Edit: Heh. I spent 10 minutes trying in vain to locate that Giant's comment. Ninjas.

[Procyonpi]

Durkon and Belkar are also playing cards in a Dragon strip. So it's most likely his cards.

Not that I'm arguing that we shouldn't list Durkon as having cards, but the fact that they appear in the Dragon strips is largely irrelevant. Do you really want me to come up with a list of all the items that we'd have to list if we were using Dragon strips as evidence for ITEMS? I mean, of the top of my head, Elan would have an obviously evil intelligent sword, and Belkar would have a mimic monster and a rod of Dispel Clothing.

(Although Belkar might tell you that his rod of Dispel Clothing is a natural weapon).

[SavageWombat]

Not that I'm arguing that we shouldn't list Durkon as having cards, but the fact that they appear in the Dragon strips is largely irrelevant. Do you really want me to come up with a list of all the items that we'd have to list if we were using Dragon strips as evidence for ITEMS? I mean, of the top of my head, Elan would have an obviously evil intelligent sword, and Belkar would have a mimic monster and a rod of Dispel Clothing.

(Although Belkar might tell you that his rod of Dispel Clothing is a natural weapon).

I thought some decision had been reached regarding those because of the official publication of the collection. It's like Belkar and his cooking skill - it was non-canon because it was in a Dragon strip, but it was reinforced in the main strip. So since the cards showed up in both places, I think we can use the Dragon strip to reinforce that they're Durkon's and not someone else's.

Personally, I think one can see the difference between something the character clearly no longer has - the evil intelligent sword - and something they could still have that's not relevant, like the scented bath gel that V wanted (iirc). Not sure where the Rod of Dispel Clothing falls on that scale - but wouldn't that be hilarious to have resurface?

[Procyonpi]

I thought some decision had been reached regarding those because of the official publication of the collection. It's like Belkar and his cooking skill - it was non-canon because it was in a Dragon strip, but it was reinforced in the main strip. So since the cards showed up in both places, I think we can use the Dragon strip to reinforce that they're Durkon's and not someone else's.

Personally, I think one can see the difference between something the character clearly no longer has - the evil intelligent sword - and something they could still have that's not relevant, like the scented bath gel that V wanted (iirc). Not sure where the Rod of Dispel Clothing falls on that scale - but wouldn't that be hilarious to have resurface?

Was a consensus actually reached on that discussion, or did we just kinda move on?

[Kurald Galain]

Personally, I think one can see the difference between something the character clearly no longer has - the evil intelligent sword - and something they could still have that's not relevant, like the scented bath gel that V wanted (iirc). Not sure where the Rod of Dispel Clothing falls on that scale - but wouldn't that be hilarious to have resurface?

For what it's worth, evil sword was not in a full comic so it doesn't count. And as I recall, the Rod of Dispel Clothing was confiscated by the lawyers at the end of that strip.

Generally speaking, SSDT is published set of full comics, so it is acceptable material for this thread. This is because keeping all information together is preferable to starting a separate thread of "Geekery for the SSDT book". Gygax magazine also qualifies for the same reason, as do the various KickStarter reward comics. We do, however, mark all SSDT material clearly as such.

[Kish]

No consensus. I've always kind of been bemused by a number of the possessions listed in the thread. (I am glad Celia's dress is no longer listed as causing Feeblemind, but I still don't quite get why "Celia owns a formal dress" is worth noting at all--especially, but not limited to, considering the absence of Roy's suit in his listing.)

[SavageWombat]

No consensus. I've always kind of been bemused by a number of the possessions listed in the thread. (I am glad Celia's dress is no longer listed as causing Feeblemind, but I still don't quite get why "Celia owns a formal dress" is worth noting at all--especially, but not limited to, considering the absence of Roy's suit in his listing.)

If I know people (and I do) it's because there wasn't enough stuff to list for Celia to be fun. Roy has a lot of neat stuff, so he gets a good list.

[Procyonpi]

For what it's worth, evil sword was not in a full comic so it doesn't count. And as I recall, the Rod of Dispel Clothing was confiscated by the lawyers at the end of that strip.

Generally speaking, SSDT is published set of full comics, so it is acceptable material for this thread. This is because keeping all information together is preferable to starting a separate thread of "Geekery for the SSDT book". Gygax magazine also qualifies for the same reason, as do the various KickStarter reward comics. We do, however, mark all SSDT material clearly as such.

What do you mean by "wasn't in a full strip?" We count plenty of items that appear only in one panel, I don't see how the length of the strip that panel appears in should matter. That strip may have been shorter, but it was in the same canon. (Edit: even by the "one panel joke comic" standard you set in the FAQ, that strip unambiguous qualifies since it's 4 panels. And arguably doesn't meet the spirit of "joke comic," since you're counting the Dragon continuity, but that's not even important).

In any case, if we're really counting items that only appeared in the Dragon Continuity, then in addition to the intelligent evil sword, I'd like to submit the following for inclusion:

Blekar: Wand of Dispel Clothing (the lawyers were there to shut the strip down, not confiscate the wand), mimic creature, head of 4E Belkar.
Elan: Intelligent Evil sword, castanets, sombrero / Mexican outfit.
Haley: bag of 10,000 copper pieces
V: unidentified purple and green potions, unidentified scrolls x2, unidentified chalice.

[SavageWombat]

Blekar: Wand of Dispel Clothing (the lawyers were there to shut the strip down, not confiscate the wand), mimic creature, head of 4E Belkar.
Elan: Intelligent Evil sword, castanets, sombrero / Mexican outfit.
Haley: bag of 10,000 copper pieces
V: unidentified purple and green potions, unidentified scrolls x2, unidentified chalice.

The bag of copper pieces was destroyed when the Inn blew up.
And the mimic, as a companion creature, doesn't have the excuse of being "put away" like equipment would. Maybe it should have its own entry.

[Procyonpi]

The bag of copper pieces was destroyed when the Inn blew up.
And the mimic, as a companion creature, doesn't have the excuse of being "put away" like equipment would. Maybe it should have its own entry.

I'll (kinda) buy what you said about the mimic creature, although I think it's more demonstrative of my larger point that items in the Dragon continuity aren't necessarily consistent from strip to strip, let alone with the main continuity. However, there was no inn that blew up in the dragon continuity. In no continuity where those copper pieces existed was there an event that would have destroyed them.

[SavageWombat]

I'll (kinda) buy what you said about the mimic creature, although I think it's more demonstrative of my larger point that items in the Dragon continuity aren't necessarily consistent from strip to strip, let alone with the main continuity. However, there was no inn that blew up in the dragon continuity. In no continuity where those copper pieces existed was there an event that would have destroyed them.

I don't follow you. If we're assuming the continuities are separate, there's no point at all. If we assume that one comes before the other, then the inn in Paladin Blues was clearly where she lost any huge bags of random treasure we need to account for.

[Procyonpi]

I don't follow you. If we're assuming the continuities are separate, there's no point at all. If we assume that one comes before the other, then the inn in Paladin Blues was clearly where she lost any huge bags of random treasure we need to account for.

We're assuming that the continuities are separate because Rich says so.

[KillingAScarab]

Stop me if you have heard this one before...

So, in Start of Darkness Xykon had a black gemstone required as the focus of the spell soul bind. It's currently listed amongst his possessions on the first page of the thread. To those who haven't read the book, there's a reason why we want to track this specific black sapphire.

Then Roy blew Xykon up and Elan blew up Dorukan's Gate. Can we reasonably expect that is still in his possession? The only thing I can think of which might point to him having it is the presence of soul bind on the list of Xykon's spells O-Chul gave to Roy. Even if Xykon had cast the spell in front of O-Chul, couldn't he have simply used a different gemstone?

[Kish]

It makes no sense to assume a fairly major plot item was destroyed offpanel, unheralded, unhinted.

[SaintRidley]

We're assuming that the continuities are separate because Rich says so.

Also because Origin precludes the possibility, what with the Order forming around a day before going to the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[hamishspence]

I wondered if some of those strips could have taken place in the Dungeon of Dorukan before they got to Xykon- but after Snips Snails and Dragon Tails came out, I figured the answer was "no".

If Redcloak grabbed the Soul Gem, I'm guessing it was right after this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

a quick dash forward to snatch it up after it rolled on the floor from Xykon's robes- then legging it down the secret passage.

Note that V's Ring of Wizardry was pried off of Xykon's charred finger bone so the Order must have investigated what remained of the body as well.