Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[St Fan]

Admittedly, this works best when it is all in the same category (such as items he may have one possessed), but even for "casting while grappled" type of situations, a "possibilities" section would work:

Xykon
[stuff]
Contested Information:

• Casting while grappled: One of the following:
  
  • Feat: Sudden Still Spell
  • Item: Rod of Maximize Spell
  • Build:

Etc.

Another possibility is the PHB2 alternative class feature "Metamagic Specialist". Given that Xykon has never been seen with a familiar, it's quite likely he did take an alternative class feature, and this is one of the favorite for sorcerers. As you see, lots of way to explain it within the rules.

[Kazyan]

It's noted that Blackwing has Use Magic Device. Since his Charisma mod is -2, he needs to have at least 2 ranks to activate the wand (and it's not likely he got a buff in the middle of being chased by Mr. Scruffy.) Can we also say that Vaarsuvius has those 2+ ranks in UMD, since Backwing can't have skill points besides those distributed in the Raven entry, or has this already been brought up?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We tried adding [Disputed] tags to information once before. We found it caused even more arguing about the thing in question.

Ah, I wondered where those went. I never complained about those (i.e. don't blame it on me) but my problem was that it didn't tell me why those were disputed. Thus my suggestion that the explanation is included, and separated from the undisputed section.

Another possibility is the PHB2 alternative class feature "Metamagic Specialist". Given that Xykon has never been seen with a familiar, it's quite likely he did take an alternative class feature, and this is one of the favorite for sorcerers. As you see, lots of way to explain it within the rules.

Technically, that's the one I didn't fill in under "Build", because I can never remember the name of it (and thus why I'd like it in the first page).

GW

[Kurald Galain]

Ah, I wondered where those went. I never complained about those (i.e. don't blame it on me) but my problem was that it didn't tell me why those were disputed. Thus my suggestion that the explanation is included, and separated from the undisputed section.

For convenience, we place these explanations in the FAQ, since they really are frequently asked questions rather than character stats.

[dps]

I'm not sure if it's possible to use the rod without showing it- activating it under one's robes, so to speak.

Perhaps one could do so if one was Malack, or perhaps a Centauri.

[RickDaily12]

On a different topic; I was checking Vaarsuvius's spellbook and came across a few interesting bits in regards to how some fit within the comic. As a wizard, are you allowed to scribe spells in your spellbook, even if you cannot prepare that particular spell for your daily slots at that point in time?

For example, let's talk about Vampric Touch. This is a Necromancy spell, scribed in his book, but doesn't the spell belong to one of V's barred schools? So, this is a spell V will NEVER be allowed to cast under the rules of DND. How was he able to scribe this spell? And why would he want to?

Also, there was Power Word Blind. Now, granted, a joke strip did kinda confirm that he did actually scribe this one. However, the Geekery thread projects V to have leveled to 13 (required for 7th level spells) closer to comic 400, as opposed to 300. Can you still scribe spells even if you aren't of level to prepare it daily at the time?

[Kish]

On a different topic; I was checking Vaarsuvius's spellbook and came across a few interesting bits in regards to how some fit within the comic. As a wizard, are you allowed to scribe spells in your spellbook, even if you cannot prepare that particular spell for your daily slots at that point in time?

For example, let's talk about Vampric Touch. This is a Necromancy spell, scribed in his book, but doesn't the spell belong to one of V's barred schools? So, this is a spell V will NEVER be allowed to cast under the rules of DND. How was he able to scribe this spell? And why would he want to?

In 3.0ed, barred schools went by power tiers for everyone, rather than it just being "Divination is less than all the others." Vaarsuvius had Conjuration (a first-tier school) barred, therefore Vaarsuvius did not need to have anything else barred.

Presumably, when they converted to 3.5ed, Vaarsuvius was immediately forced to choose a second barred school...and suddenly Vampiric Touch and whatever other Necromancy spells s/he knows became useless spellbook-filler.

[Kurald Galain]

It's noted that Blackwing has Use Magic Device. Since his Charisma mod is -2, he needs to have at least 2 ranks to activate the wand (and it's not likely he got a buff in the middle of being chased by Mr. Scruffy.) Can we also say that Vaarsuvius has those 2+ ranks in UMD, since Backwing can't have skill points besides those distributed in the Raven entry, or has this already been brought up?

Good point on the UMD ranks. However what makes you think Blackwing can't have his own skill points?

It would be nice if Kilkil got the same stats as the other kobolds, i.e.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Also, all kobold characters should list under their skills Speak Language: Draconic (racial).

As a wizard, are you allowed to scribe spells in your spellbook, even if you cannot prepare that particular spell for your daily slots at that point in time?

Yes. By RAW, "a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own". There is no restriction that the wizard needs to be of high enough level or intelligence to cast these, nor is there a restriction against barred schools. Why would he want to? Well, spellbooks are cheap, so a moderate level wizard has, effectively, an arbitrarily large amount of writing space. If the wizard is also obsessed with obtaining knowledge, there's no harm in getting as many spells as they can.

[Mike Havran]

I know that Miko is dead and gone, but can we put a cap on her levels based on her fight with the Order?

Her third Smite Evil was her "final", which means she had 10-14 Paladin levels. Also, she was injured in the fight and did not heal using Wholeness of Body, that means she has at most 6 Monk levels.

[Needle]

I was checking which spells Z used on the lasts strips, to think about which slots are still avaiable and stuff, and noticed Teleport is not listed on Z's spell list

[Kazyan]

Good point on the UMD ranks. However what makes you think Blackwing can't have his own skill points?

Familiars are normal members of their species. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if that means their skill points have to be distributed in the same way as in the MM stat block, but it's implausible that a non-familiar raven would take UMD anyway--they can't speak and are unintelligent before becoming a familiar. (Blackwing does not get additional Hit Dice, and therefore skill points, for being a familiar.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if that means their skill points have to be distributed in the same way as in the MM stat block

I'm pretty sure they do.

For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better.

This is also the best case for Vaarsuvius having ranks in Knowledge (religion). Blackwing correctly identifies a mummy as a mummy. Since Knowledge (religion) is not a skill in which a "normal" raven has ranks, the ranks he used to make the check must have been V's.

[Sunken Valley]

In 3.0ed, barred schools went by power tiers for everyone, rather than it just being "Divination is less than all the others." Vaarsuvius had Conjuration (a first-tier school) barred, therefore Vaarsuvius did not need to have anything else barred.

Presumably, when they converted to 3.5ed, Vaarsuvius was immediately forced to choose a second barred school...and suddenly Vampiric Touch and whatever other Necromancy spells s/he knows became useless spellbook-filler.

If that's true, how come V can cast Stinking Cloud in the intro in DCF?

[hamishspence]

Maybe between writing DCF, with bonus strips, and writing that War & XPs strip, The Giant changed which school V barred first?

[Kish]

Necromancy was a third-tier school in 3.0ed. "Vaarsuvius used to be an evoker with only Necromancy barred" is not a possible explanation.

[FlawedParadigm]

Teeeeeeeeeechnically speaking, the intro to DCF was still under 3.0 when V only had one school banned. It wasn't until they were actually inside the dungeon that the 3.5 conversion happened. I wonder if that's the answer.

[Kish]

Teeeeeeeeeechnically speaking, the intro to DCF was still under 3.0 when V only had one school banned. It wasn't until they were actually inside the dungeon that the 3.5 conversion happened. I wonder if that's the answer.

The problem is that, as an Invocation specialist, Vaarsuvius could have had only Conjuration barred...but not only Necromancy. It went like this.
1) If you specialize in a first-tier school (Conjuration, Invocation, Transmutation), your options are:
1a) Bar a first-tier school.
1b) Bar two second-tier schools.
1c) Bar both third-tier schools and a second-tier school.

2) If you specialize in a second-tier school (Illusion, Enchantment, Abjuration), your options are:
2a) Bar any first or second-tier school.
2b) Bar both third-tier schools.

3) If you specialize in a third-tier school (Divination, Necromancy), then you simply:
3a) Bar any one school.

If Vaarsuvius had Conjuration barred, then s/he fits 1a, but it doesn't fit that s/he could cast Stinking Cloud. If Vaarsuvius had Necromancy barred, then s/he would potentially fit 1c...if s/he also had Divination and a second-tier school barred, rather than Conjuration.

Most likely: Rich forgot that Stinking Cloud isn't an invocation spell, like it was in 2ed.

[hamishspence]

Maybe V being a specialist wizard rather than a generalist, wasn't the idea, until after DCF was written?

The "Evan's Spiked Tentacles" spell, if based on Evard's Black Tentacles, would have had to be conjuration.

[SavageWombat]

Maybe V being a specialist wizard rather than a generalist, wasn't the idea, until after DCF was written?

The "Evan's Spiked Tentacles" spell, if based on Evard's Black Tentacles, would have had to be conjuration.

Considering that "Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion" is a bizarre spell to have in the first place, I decided to assume that V had actually cast Shadow Conjuration to psych the chimera out. But that's just my interpretation.

I think we'd agree that an official statement of V's barred schools trumps any inconsistencies with early strips. If you think about it, TV shows get away with that all the time.

[KillingAScarab]

The problem is that, as an Invocation specialist, Vaarsuvius could have had only Conjuration barred...but not only Necromancy. It went like this.
1) If you specialize in a first-tier school (Conjuration, Invocation, Transmutation), your options are:
1a) Bar a first-tier school.
1b) Bar two second-tier schools.
1c) Bar both third-tier schools and a second-tier school.

2) If you specialize in a second-tier school (Illusion, Enchantment, Abjuration), your options are:
2a) Bar any first or second-tier school.
2b) Bar both third-tier schools.

3) If you specialize in a third-tier school (Divination, Necromancy), then you simply:
3a) Bar any one school.

If Vaarsuvius had Conjuration barred, then s/he fits 1a, but it doesn't fit that s/he could cast Stinking Cloud. If Vaarsuvius had Necromancy barred, then s/he would potentially fit 1c...if s/he also had Divination and a second-tier school barred, rather than Conjuration.

Most likely: Rich forgot that Stinking Cloud isn't an invocation spell, like it was in 2ed.

I haven't particularly considered the 3e specialist wizard from the point of view of "tiers." Small correction to be made to conjurers, evokers and transmuters, though. They had the choice to make any three schools prohibited. I don't know if there is any evidence for Vaarsuvius having a third prohibited school prior to Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, but even if that were the case, it would be quite harsh compared to 3.5's limit of two.

Perhaps it is only coincidence, but in On the Origin of PCs, Vaarsuvius is up against a conjurer, while the other two possible opponents were a necromancer and an enchanter. I don't think Vaarsuvius cast any enchantments until crushing despair, unless you count the sleep spell that wasn't.

Edit: Forgot about casting sleep against Zz'dtri in #65.

[Kish]

They had the choice to make any three schools prohibited.

Explain how anyone would get to your proposed 1d without reaching 1a or 1b first.

Unless you simply mean that they had grounds to argue with their DM that RAW was on their side if they really wanted to bar an extra school after meeting their specialization requirements, in which case...yay for them.

[KillingAScarab]

Explain how anyone would get to your proposed 1d without reaching 1a or 1b first.

Unless you simply mean that they had grounds to argue with their DM that RAW was on their side if they really wanted to bar an extra school after meeting their specialization requirements, in which case...yay for them.

It was an option, not the result of a process. The 3e Player's Handbook had no such hierarchical categories. The book contained nothing which states, "You will be disabling yourself if you do this." Monks exist, the toughness feat exists, so why not a wizard which was prohibited from conjuration, enchantment and necromancy?

If you still think that's a stupid rule and they should change it, they did.

[Kish]

...And you would not, as a DM, have pointed out to them, "You only actually need to bar Conjuration"?

Well. Quite off-topic for this thread, regardless.

[kickassfrog]

Not sure if this helps or has already been covered, but shouldn't Malack have at least 150 hp to survive a 'heal' from Durkon?

[Mike Havran]

Not sure if this helps or has already been covered, but shouldn't Malack have at least 150 hp to survive a 'heal' from Durkon?

If Malack made Will save, he got only half. Even then, if they are symmetrical with Harm, Heal should leave him 1 hp.

[KillingAScarab]

Well. Quite off-topic for this thread, regardless.

The conversation turned towards how spell schools were prohibited in 3e, and "choose any three schools" was one of the options. I don't know of any good evidence Vaarsuvius chose it, but I do not own Dungeon Crawlin' Fools nor War & XPs.

[Kish]

Wait, you're seriously arguing that the power-obsessed Vaarsuvius might have chosen to randomly bar more schools than s/he had to?

It still doesn't matter. It wouldn't explain anything, and the thread doesn't list Vaarsuvius' 3.0ed stats.

[ellindsey]

Not sure if this helps or has already been covered, but shouldn't Malack have at least 150 hp to survive a 'heal' from Durkon?

If Heal works like Harm, then it can't reduce the target below 1HP. And Malack may have made his saving throw, in which case it only does 75 HP damage anyway.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Should Cure Itchy Wounds be added to Durkon's spells?

[SowZ]

Should Cure Itchy Wounds be added to Durkon's spells?

In the OOTSverse, all clerics could probably cast Cure Itchy Wounds, though, unless it is a domain spell which I am sure it isn't.