Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Mage Paradox]

You are using too many assumptions that have no real support in the comic whatsoever. Yes, V could have been on the verge of 15 when fightnig ABD, but just as likely she could have just got to the 14. Also it's possible that V got some Exp. in Gobbotopia post-splice, but there is also nothing to support it so she may as well got nothing at all. It's certainly not enough to claim V was already 15 when the latest arc started.

From 671, not a single month passed and the encouters that V had post-Gannji were Z, Yukyuk and whatever on the Dressing plane, and possibly a bunch of palace mooks when they were rescuing the slaves.

What is the big deal about the +, anyway? There is not a ton of difference between what can lv15 and lv16 Wizard do, storywise.

Nobody is saying to list V above 15, just to list him in the same way everyone else is listed when the upper limit of their level is not established- with a + next to it. That's what is done for everyone else, I see no reason not to do it for V. I distinctly remember reading references to how much time had passed, and if it isn't a month yet it's pretty damn close.
This thread from 2010 has the giant saying 2 weeks have passed since 671: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=19 so while it's likely still under a month, it's a non-trivial period of time that has passed (with many chances for XP).

In any event, they have had numerous chances to gain XP since 671, from beating the Sandworm, fighting off the slavers, V beating up the Wizard with his divorce papers, the tangle with Ganji and then escaping the throne room after, fighting Z, Yuk Yuk and the LG, freeing the slaves, several days of toppling the evil reign of the sauce king on another plane, etc, all before V even gets to the Pyramid. No, there's plenty of stuff that would in theory have allowed V to get another level. We can't assume V's still capped at 15.

[Mage Paradox]

Well, while I agree he is 27+, I don't think he is 32+. We must keep in mind that the Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, with many rules and features that were not converted to 3.5, even in the SRD, and some spells, like Energy Immunity, did not exist in the time of this book. Energy Immunity for example is a 7th level spell, which can easily be put into a nonepic magic item.

I don't get how this disproves it. What are you saying?

[Kurald Galain]

And his aliases, Kurald Galain?

Added now. I think the first time you talked about these you didn't link to the comic, so I didn't know what you meant.

Sometimes the same spell is depicted with 2 auras, sometimes it's not. Compare:

It strikes me that spells tend to get a double aura when the caster is really angry or desperate. I'm not sure we can conclude from this that Malack energy-drained Nale (even though it would be nice foreshadowing). Note that Durkon is standing right next to them, and would have gotten a check to recognize energy drain as such, and Malack may not have wanted to risk revealing his nature in that comic.

Elan's character level was never modified after we knew that Nale is 15. At least, Elan should be listed as Bard 13/Dashing Swordsman 2, if we follow this method.

Good point, I've fixed that.

The Power Word Stun scene is evidence that V is level 15 or greater than level 15. It sets her level floor, but not her ceiling. The Holy Word scene, meanwhile, is good evidence that Z is exactly level 15, because if he were any higher or lower the spell would have affected him differently. In this context, V's comment to Z is good, if circumstantial, evidence that V is also exactly level 15.

Precisely. It is explicitly spelled out in the comic that a PC's nemesis will always have a level equal or higher than that PC. This is evidence that we can use for the thread. That doesn't mean that every opposite in the Linear Guild is somebody's personal nemesis (e.g Hilgya/Durkon are not nemeses), but it does apply to Z and V (because they have said so in the comic). That said, I see no harm in linking to the STUN! comic as well.

It's weaksauce evidence compared to other stuff on here though.

There is no rule in this thread, nor has there ever been a rule, that we MUST always use the first evidence, or the evidence that one particular poster considers the strongest. Evidence is evidence. And as this thread's history shows, people have widely different opinions over what they find "absurdly unlikely", so opinions about what is or isn't "absurd" are not evidence.

Question about Belkar's Story in the PDF.

No, I don't think that's proven.

I don't get how this disproves it. What are you saying?

Your assertion that an Epic Ring is the only "sensible" way to acquire fire immunity is incorrect; there are other, and cheaper, ways in RAW to become immune to fire.

[Codyage]

Added now. I think the first time you talked about these you didn't link to the comic, so I didn't know what you meant.


It strikes me that spells tend to get a double aura when the caster is really angry or desperate. I'm not sure we can conclude from this that Malack energy-drained Nale (even though it would be nice foreshadowing). Note that Durkon is standing right next to them, and would have gotten a check to recognize energy drain as such, and Malack may not have wanted to risk revealing his nature in that comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html

Malack all ready assumed however that he would have given away at that point with the lack of body heat, and on the roof he knew Sabine, Nale, Durkon, and had all ready met Elan. They were all people who knew, or now know he is a vampire.

Not to mention, in a fit of rage against his children's killers, I don't think he would be with holding himself, especially if he all ready believes Durkon figured it out. We know how much Malack wants revenge against Nale.

[Mage Paradox]

Precisely. It is explicitly spelled out in the comic that a PC's nemesis will always have a level equal or higher than that PC. This is evidence that we can use for the thread. That doesn't mean that every opposite in the Linear Guild is somebody's personal nemesis (e.g Hilgya/Durkon are not nemeses), but it does apply to Z and V (because they have said so in the comic).

This is nothing more than an assertion on your part. Z is never identified as the special nemesis of V. Indeed, their "rivalry" goes like this:
- V meets Z well over a year ago. They have one fight that is inconclusive.
- Z turns up unexpectedly 6 days ago and they have another fight which V wins.
End chronology.

To assert they are special rivals is clearly your personal interpretation, and is backed up by nothing in the comic. To make this worse:
- Only 1 pair is ever shown to have their levels linked like this- Haley and Crystal, who had a long childhood rivalry through years of association.
- None of the other LG members are having their levels linked in this way (not even Elan, who is not pegged at level 15 now just because Nale is). It's wholly arbitrary. You personally like the idea, and applying it here, but to claim it's consistent with the other listings is clearly false. As Roy himself points out in the comic, the evil opposite thing is overplayed, none of these guys is necessarily the "opposite" of anyone, or their rival. As Tarquin becomes Roy/Elan's rival, will they suddenly be bumped up to whatever Epic level Tarquin is probably at? Is Roy automatically the same level as his "rival" Xykon? I'm sure Xykon doesn't consider Roy a rival of course, but then V didn't consider Z a rival, he's barely seen the guy over his long life.
EDIT- better change Pompey and Thog too, so they're the same as their "rivals" levels.

V doesn't affirm he is Z's "rival" or that they are the same level. He makes one vague remark. We shouldn't be looking at that and then using it as evidence to cap V at level 15. Your insistence on doing so is blatantly inconsistent with the standards applied elsewhere in the ranking. As I pointed out, how can Xykon giving us strong evidence he is level 27 not be worth listing (just because alternative and less likely theories can be constructed), but V being capped at 15 is worth listing (despite alternative, equally likely theories being constructable)?

[Mage Paradox]

I notice some amendments to the opening post and FAQ. Could you clarify what level Xykon needs to be to forge those CORE rings you list in the new FAQ? Since Xykon tells us he forged them himself. And what spells does Xykon need?

[Kurald Galain]

Not to mention, in a fit of rage against his children's killers, I don't think he would be with holding himself, especially if he all ready believes Durkon figured it out. We know how much Malack wants revenge against Nale.

Yeah, that's also a good point. I think this bears further discussion.


And Mage Paradox, there's no need to be so hostile. Please calm down.

[Emanick]

Why is Elan listed as having demonstrably leveled again in Dashing Swordsman, rather than Bard? He implies when the Order reunites that at the moment he's more interested in continuing to advance as a bard than as a Dashing Swordsman, especially when he mentions "swapping bard spells out," which I believe can only be done when gaining a bard level.

If anything, I would list Elan as Bard 14/Dashing Swordsman 1, but at least designate him as Bard 13+/Dashing Swordsman 1+.

[Mage Paradox]

I'm not being "hostile", I'm merely pointing out the obvious dual standard. I mean, it's not in my imagination. It exists, and it is annoying that it's basically being ignored based on your subjective preference.

If I'm mistaken, please feel free to explain it to me. For instance, how is the decision to list Xykon at level 21 consistent with the decision to cap V at level 15? In both cases an alternative theory could be constructed (which is the basis for not listing Xykon at 27+), and if anything I'd say the evidence for Xykon is much clearer and more supported than the evidence for V being Z's "rival" (or that most rivals level simultaneously). Yet one standard applies for V, and another for Xykon. Why?

[Kish]

Because there was already an argument over Xykon's original listing at level 27+.

For whatever it's worth, I agree that Vaarsuvius should be listed as level 15+, not level 15, and disagree that Tarquin should be listed with an epic ring of fire immunity (what is with people wanting to list Tarquin as having all sorts of funky rings?).

[Raineh Daze]

Tarquin has a Ring of Regeneration and a Ring of True Seeing. He certainly didn't avoid damage via a ring.

[zimmerwald1915]

If I'm mistaken, please feel free to explain it to me. For instance, how is the decision to list Xykon at level 21 consistent with the decision to cap V at level 15? In both cases an alternative theory could be constructed (which is the basis for not listing Xykon at 27+), and if anything I'd say the evidence for Xykon is much clearer and more supported than the evidence for V being Z's "rival" (or that most rivals level simultaneously). Yet one standard applies for V, and another for Xykon. Why?

Given your application of a double standard to V and Xykon in the "even progressing" thread (now locked), I find this incredibly ironic.

That said, is there anyone here who's particularly averse to adding a plus sign after V's level? It doesn't change a heck of a lot.

[137beth]

(what is with people wanting to list Tarquin as having all sorts of funky rings?)

In case you hadn't noticed, people are all strange.

That said, is there anyone here who's particularly averse to adding a plus sign after V's level? It doesn't change a heck of a lot.

We do have some evidence that V is exactly level 15, though.
On the other hand, I think we should add a "+" after Elan's level.

This is nothing more than an assertion on your part. Z is never identified as the special nemesis of V. Indeed, their "rivalry" goes like this:
- V meets Z well over a year ago. They have one fight that is inconclusive.
- Z turns up unexpectedly 6 days ago and they have another fight which V wins.
End chronology.

To assert they are special rivals is clearly your personal interpretation, and is backed up by nothing in the comic.

Yes, there is: See strip 800.

[Mage Paradox]

In strip 800 V describes himself as Z's "hated enemy". But that does not in anyway infer a linkage in their levels such as (the singular example we have seen involving) Crystal and Haley. Xykon is Roy's "hated enemy", but that doesn't make Roy epic. The same is true of dozens of characters. Z had barely interacted with V, and V has probably not spared Z a thought for over a year until 6 days ago in their almost non-existent interaction and/or backstory.

[mawexzon]

I don't think we can figure out Protagonist levels with the whole rivals thing.
We know that rivals are at least the same level, If not higher, This comes from Haley, who is a protagonist/hero; This can mean that while the antagonist/villain rival is always at least the same level as the protagonist/hero one, but the same is not necessarily true for the protagonist/hero, As the antagonist/villain rival can be of higher level, As such, that means while we can figure out a minimal level for the antagonist/villain rivals, we can't figure out the protagonist/hero one.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think we can figure out Protagonist levels with the whole rivals thing.
We know that rivals are at least the same level, If not higher, This comes from Haley, who is a protagonist/hero; This can mean that while the antagonist/villain rival is always at least the same level as the protagonist/hero one, but the same is not necessarily true for the protagonist/hero, As the antagonist/villain rival can be of higher level, As such, that means while we can figure out a minimal level for the antagonist/villain rivals, we can't figure out the protagonist/hero one.

This is actually an argument for V being the same level as Z. Consider our evidence. We know V is at least level 15 from power word stun. We also know Z is exactly level 15 from holy word. If we take it as given (and we don't necessarily have to) that they are "personal rivals", V must be exactly level 15, because V cannot exceed Z's level. I agree, we can't use the "personal rivals" metric as good evidence in every case, even the vast majority of cases. In this specific case, if we accept that it applies, it states that V must be level 15.

[Mage Paradox]

Yes, if we just invent a rule about personal rivals, and then infer from dubious evidence that V and Z are personal rivals, then that might be a good point... of course there is no clearly stated rule or evidence, which means based on the standards used here it shouldn't just be assumed.

[Kish]

Aside from what Mage Paradox said, we don't actually know how Zz'dtri's ECL is factored in; Vaarsuvius presumed Zz'dtri was the same level as him/her, but even if we, for some reason, treat Vaarsuvius as an authority in that instance, it's anything but clear whether Zz'dtri's actual level matches Vaarsuvius'--or his drow ECL.

Nor do I believe we know whether Rich remembered Durkon having the Good domain when he blasted the Linear Guild, or that the "Durkon didn't cast any spells off-panel" assumption that underlies the declaration of Durkon as exactly level 14 is valid.

[sam79]

In strip 800 V describes himself as Z's "hated enemy". But that does not in anyway infer a linkage in their levels such as (the singular example we have seen involving) Crystal and Haley.

I think the Linear Guild were intended as the Evil Opposites and original rivals of the Order, and that would suggest comparable power levels. But that is way too vague to be of evidencial use on this thread, I'm sure. As for Z and V specifically; it is kind of like Haley and Crystal, in as much as Z (Crystal) spends a lot of effort and time thinking about killing V (Haley), whereas V (Haley) hardly gives Z (Crystal) a second thought unless they are actually in panel.

[JFMS]

I notice some amendments to the opening post and FAQ. Could you clarify what level Xykon needs to be to forge those CORE rings you list in the new FAQ? Since Xykon tells us he forged them himself. And what spells does Xykon need?

He could have created a ring with the Energy Immunity spell, found in Complete Arcane. This is a level 7 spell for wizards and sorcerers with duration of 24 hours.
According to the table 7-33 found in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, the base price to create an item (ring or wondrous item) with a continuous spell effect is: spell level x caster level x 2000 gp. If the spell has a 24-hour duration, divide the cost in half.
7 x 14 x 2000/2 = 98000 gp
The result:
Non-epic item of fire immunity
Strong abjuration; CL 14th; Forge Ring or Craft Wondrous Item (in this case add +5 gp in the market price for the item cost), Energy Immunity; Price 98,000 gp.
Cost to create: 49,000 gp; 3920 XP; 98 days.

[Flame of Anor]

Your assertion that an Epic Ring is the only "sensible" way to acquire fire immunity is incorrect; there are other, and cheaper, ways in RAW to become immune to fire.

But what about ways to become immune to pure divine damage, which constitutes half of a flame strike's damage?

Tarquin has a Ring of Regeneration and a Ring of True Seeing. He certainly didn't avoid damage via a ring.

Unless he has a hand of glory, or wasn't wearing his ring of regeneration. Unlikely, I know, but possible.

[Raineh Daze]

Unless he has a hand of glory, or wasn't wearing his ring of regeneration. Unlikely, I know, but possible.

Hand of Glory, maybe.

Not wearing it? Unless he has another source, impossible. Also a really far fetched assumption. A ring that protects from damage rather than a ring of regeneration, when he's automatically healed and we know he has said ring? Err...

[Living Oxymoron]

I don't get how this disproves it. What are you saying?

Well, I think this answers your question:

He could have created a ring with the Energy Immunity spell, found in Complete Arcane. This is a level 7 spell for wizards and sorcerers with duration of 24 hours.
According to the table 7-33 found in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, the base price to create an item (ring or wondrous item) with a continuous spell effect is: spell level x caster level x 2000 gp. If the spell has a 24-hour duration, divide the cost in half.
7 x 14 x 2000/2 = 98000 gp
The result:
Non-epic item of fire immunity
Strong abjuration; CL 14th; Forge Ring or Craft Wondrous Item (in this case add +5 gp in the market price for the item cost), Energy Immunity; Price 98,000 gp.
Cost to create: 49,000 gp; 3920 XP; 98 days.

Added now. I think the first time you talked about these you didn't link to the comic, so I didn't know what you meant.

Actually, I've always linked that comic in all my attempts to show that based on a comment by DPS (he was the one who discovered this, not me). I remember he forgot to link the comic once, so you may be confusing our comments. But it's ok now.

[SaintRidley]

But what about ways to become immune to pure divine damage, which constitutes half of a flame strike's damage?

This is why I think he's either got Evasion as a class ability or through some item that was active. A successful reflex save with Evasion means Flame Strike does nothing to him, even the divine damage.

No fire immunity needed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So what's the standard? Is it "most reasonable interpretation of the evidence" or is it "only when we 100% know"?

The standard is, as per Moderator rules for this kind of thread:

information as represents the threads community's conclusions

While I agree on your assessment that V and Z are not Haley-style linked rivals, I suspect that you are unlikely to get the thread to agree with your analysis if you tell everyone that disagrees with you prima facie to "GTFO".

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

In strip 800 V describes himself as Z's "hated enemy". But that does not in anyway infer a linkage in their levels such as (the singular example we have seen involving) Crystal and Haley. Xykon is Roy's "hated enemy", but that doesn't make Roy epic. The same is true of dozens of characters. Z had barely interacted with V, and V has probably not spared Z a thought for over a year until 6 days ago in their almost non-existent interaction and/or backstory.

Just as a counter-point - Z may not be V's "hated enemy", but we have evidence that V is Z's. To wit, that Z appears to have tuned his build and spells specifically to fight V.

And the linkage is demonstrably one-way - the NPC gains levels when the PC does. If Xykon was Roy's "hated enemy" it wouldn't benefit Roy at all - but Xykon would gain levels from Roy, possibly even if he were higher level to begin with. And you know, Xykon didn't show any sign of being Epic level when they first met, let alone 27+ - maybe he's gaining levels quickly for some reason.

[RunicLGB]

Just as a counter-point - Z may not be V's "hated enemy", but we have evidence that V is Z's. To wit, that Z appears to have tuned his build and spells specifically to fight V.

And the linkage is demonstrably one-way - the NPC gains levels when the PC does. If Xykon was Roy's "hated enemy" it wouldn't benefit Roy at all - but Xykon would gain levels from Roy, possibly even if he were higher level to begin with. And you know, Xykon didn't show any sign of being Epic level when they first met, let alone 27+ - maybe he's gaining levels quickly for some reason.

That would just be terrifying and completely invalidate all of Roys efforts to grow stronger to defeat Xykon, as well as ruin Xykon's comment about roy leaving to level up so they could have a real fight.

Crystal seemed to know she was gaining levels from Halley, so if Xykon was getting levels from Roy his comment wouldn't make sense. Also Both Crystal and Z actually hated their rivals and actively thought about them and how they would beat them the moment they got the chance.

Xykon can't even remember Roy's name. The Hatred is entirely one way, and since Roy is the PC he has to earn his exp the hard way rather than riding the plot power that Xykon is giving off.

[Mike Havran]

And you know, Xykon didn't show any sign of being Epic level when they first met, let alone 27+ - maybe he's gaining levels quickly for some reason.

He didn't show them, but we have plenty of evidence he was Epic. From online strips, Celia's statement that Xykon learned Epic Cloister before the Order showed up should be enough.

[SavageWombat]

He didn't show them, but we have plenty of evidence he was Epic. From online strips, Celia's statement that Xykon learned Epic Cloister before the Order showed up should be enough.

Since we're apparently nit-picking, Celia's statement doesn't say in any way that he mastered the spell BEFORE the Order showed up, just that he did. It even could imply that he mastered it after Celia knew him - i.e. after the Redmountain adventure.

[Raineh Daze]

He can't have mastered it after, because she felt it cast again whilst there. The place was kind of blown up, remember? Consequently, unless Xykon got XP from sitting around waiting, he was Epic at least by the time the Order is around.