Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Mage Paradox]

The thing is, though, that the core rules allow you to design your own item to craft, and there's nothing stopping Xykon from creating a wondrous item that does the same thing as the epic ring. It's one thing to confine ourselves to RAW-described feats and classes; it's quite another to assume that Xykon, upon deciding at level 23 that he wants an item that makes him immune to fire, decides that rather than crafting a Gauntlet of Fire Immunity - something within his power to do - he's going to wait nine levels in order to make something that does the exact same thing, but with the advantage of being within the SRD and thus being "canon."

Then list him at 23+, no problem. I just don't see how elaborate non-core explanations should be used to refute the most obvious explanation/s. Unless there is a core way to do it with level 21, he should be boosted to 23+ (or whatever the lowest # is for a core item he could forge that would do it).

[Emanick]

Then list him at 23+, no problem. I just don't see how elaborate non-core explanations should be used to refute the most obvious explanation/s. Unless there is a core way to do it with level 21, he should be boosted to 23+ (or whatever the lowest # is for a core item he could forge that would do it).

I was mostly using level 23 as an example. I'd be delighted to find a way to narrow down Xykon's level further - I have him at level 22-25 in my headcanon, although I doubt we could get that precise - but since it seems as though there's a RAW way to craft a non-epic item that makes you immune to fire, using a book whose content has already been invoked by the comics at least once, I don't know if 23+ is supportable by that particular line of evidence. Hopefully there's something else that works equally well.

[Flame of Anor]

Incidentally, he would have killed V if he had aimed the Meteor Swarm in her, because all hands spells have as many hit points as you do when you’re undamaged.

V might have survived if Xykon had missed with the meteors and V had made the Reflex save.

[Kurald Galain]

Time elapsed doesn't matter for level progression. A character could easily go 28 years without gaining any levels. Especially if they are already high level.

Precisely. If age was a substitute for level, then Shojo would have been epic by now (as would most elves).

Added Z's Planar Binding. Is there anything else in my domain I missed?

Generic kobold abilities for Kilkil, and draconic language to all kobolds.

Xykon, upon deciding at level 23 that he wants an item that makes him immune to fire, decides that rather than crafting a Gauntlet of Fire Immunity - something within his power to do - he's going to wait nine levels in order to make something that does the exact same thing, but with the advantage of being within the SRD and thus being "canon."

We already know that Xykon researches custom spells and that numerous characters have spells/items/abilities that are not from Core. OOTS canon clearly doesn't restrict itself to Core; the first post contains a list of sourcebooks that have been shown to be used in canon.

[Emanick]

We already know that Xykon researches custom spells and that numerous characters have spells/items/abilities that are not from Core. OOTS canon clearly doesn't restrict itself to Core; the first post contains a list of sourcebooks that have been shown to be used in canon.

Yeah, that was more or less the thrust of my argument.

Any thoughts about the ancient silver dragon's SR and Xykon's maximum level?

[Mage Paradox]

Still waiting on a response to my last post on V RE: 15+

[The Giant]

Still waiting on a response to my last post on V RE: 15+

The Voice of Mod: Thread curators are volunteers. They are not required to respond at all, much less in your preferred timeframe. Posting to demand they do so is equivalent to "bumping" the thread, which is considered spam. Don't do it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I...think most DMs would call it really abusive to create a nonepic ring that, by using a spell from a non-core sourcebook, exactly duplicates the effects of a core epic ring.

To be fair, Kish, most DMs would also call it abusive to inscribe a symbol of insanity on a bouncy ball. We can't use this argument to say that Xykon couldn't have used RC's help to inscribe a non-epic ring with a non-epic spell just because it is not core. We know the book the spell is from is in play, so unless the Dark One has a problem with the spell and doesn't grant it to his clerics (not likely), RC has it.

The most parsimonious explanation to how Xykon could have a ring of fire quasi-immunity seems to be "non-epic ring with a non-core spell" from where I sit. Certainly less of a stretch than Xykon gaining 10 epic levels off-panel.

Grey Wolf

[Douglas]

I'd like to formally propose that Xykon's level range be capped at 28, since by RAW there is no way he could have failed to overcome the silver dragon's SR at a level higher than 27, and it is virtually impossible that he could have gained more than one level in the meantime. Unless he spent tons of time fighting epic opponents off-screen in Azure City - at a rate fast enough to more than pay for the magic items he crafted, I might add - he only defeated one epic character in the meantime, and probably didn't get a story award for doing anything besides capturing Azure City.

An ancient silver is old enough to take epic feats. It could have had several copies of Improved Spell Resistance.

Except a core item forged by Xykon himself would require him to be level 32. I'm baffled why there is this resistence to listing Xykon as more than 21, when everyone agrees he is clearly higher than 21. Can't we do some calculations and get it a bit more precise? For instance, "21+, but no higher than level 28 as of issue X" (in order for the Ancient Silver Dragon's spell resistence to have worked).

Everyone posting at the moment, maybe, but there have been many people disagreeing with it quite strongly in the past, and that was well after the V/Xykon fight. Increasing Xykon's listed level without new evidence would be inviting that argument back, and no one wants to risk that.

In large part because of that argument, some similar arguments, and the temporary thread closure that resulted, this thread has adopted a fairly extreme minimalist posture. If there's an explanation that has lower required resources and isn't absurd, then the lower requirement is used.

[hamishspence]

An ancient silver is old enough to take epic feats. It could have had several copies of Improved Spell Resistance.

As a 34 HD monster, it could have taken epic feats for the last 14 of its Hit Dice anyway.

[SinsI]

We should remove "unspecified spell that allows to travel to Astral Plane" from Xykon's spell list.
#833 doesn't say anything about Xykon casting it himself - he travelled there without his knowledge, but it can be done via many other ways (i.e. using magic items or scrolls); rather, he actually relies on the Redcloak to cast a Gate spell instead.

[Living Oxymoron]

The proof for V's level being 15 is wrong (or let us say, weak). The proof is he used Power Word Stun (and thus must be level 15), not that there was a vague reference to him being possibly the same level as Z. Especially since the former happened first. This should be changed.

Also just because two characters are "opposites" according to the LG, it doesn't mean that the two are rivals who level up simultaneously like Haley and Crystal do (in fact so far, they're the only pair we should assume level up like that).

Mage Paradox, sorry to quote this comment of yours only now, but I have to say that Sabine is also Haley's arch-rival, what means she may be matching Haley's character level and other things too. This comes first from the mouth of Belkar himself, though it is only when they go to the desert that this fact is proved. Compare the case when Haley implies that her Search skill is not maxed (actually, that it has just a few ranks) with Sabine's difficulty to find traps and the speech of Nale that follows it.

[Mage Paradox]

Nobody is disagreeing that Haley and Crystal level up simultaneously... we know that. It's the idea anyone vaguely defined by the reader as "an opposite" also does, for which we have zero evidence.

[Emanick]

An ancient silver is old enough to take epic feats. It could have had several copies of Improved Spell Resistance.


Everyone posting at the moment, maybe, but there have been many people disagreeing with it quite strongly in the past, and that was well after the V/Xykon fight. Increasing Xykon's listed level without new evidence would be inviting that argument back, and no one wants to risk that.

In large part because of that argument, some similar arguments, and the temporary thread closure that resulted, this thread has adopted a fairly extreme minimalist posture. If there's an explanation that has lower required resources and isn't absurd, then the lower requirement is used.

At some point you have to draw the line in terms of what is most probable. Yes, well, the ancient silver dragon could have taken precisely the feat that would make it impossible to know anything about Xykon's maximum level. It's also possible, however, that V took Toughness 6 times, and that therefore hir minimum Constitution should be lowered from 8. If you find the right feat, you can make a bazillion otherwise well-established things invalid. I don't think we want to set such a precedent, though.

[Mage Paradox]

I agree. People can't just pick the obscure theories they like in one instance, and ignore them in another.

[Kish]

I don't think we want to set such a precedent, though.

I would actually love for the thread to claim "a bazillion" fewer things as "well-established."

[Kurald Galain]

the ancient silver dragon could have taken precisely the feat that would make it impossible to know anything about Xykon's maximum level. It's also possible, however, that V took Toughness 6 times, and that therefore hir minimum Constitution should be lowered from 8.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. If V's constitution were one point lower, he would require five Toughness feats to compensate for the hit points; whereas the dragon needs only one spell resistance boost to counter your point about Xykon's level. And it has been stated in-comic that certain characters with SR use various means to boost that, it's not implausible that a dragon (with feats to spare) would.

Generally speaking, though, if you can offer a plausible alternative solution to anything then we'll take that into account. This is why e.g. we don't list Xykon with the Craft Epic Ring feat, because plausible alternatives exist to give him fire immunity that don't require that feat. We try to avoid the little game of "my assumption is more plausible than your assumption" because it doesn't get us anywhere.

[Mage Paradox]

You could come up with a plausible alternative scenario to almost every stat listed. The idea is surely to apply occam's razor and go with the most reasonable scenario, in order to provide readers unfamiliar with the characters with the most informative profile possible. So for instance, writing things like "level 21+, but probably substantially higher" would be informative and accurate (and add links to each of the last 3 words of that sentence). Or saying "level 21+, but probably not higher than level 28 as of issue X" would be helpful info. Lots of stats provide ranges and estimates for this very reason, so that readers can better get a feel for the characters. I have no idea why it's sensible to do for Constitution, but not for say the characters level.

[Conte_Vincero]

New Forum Game:
Every time Mage Paradox says occam's razor, you have to take a drink

[137beth]

You could come up with a plausible alternative scenario to almost every stat listed. The idea is surely to apply occam's razor and go with the most reasonable scenario, in order to provide readers unfamiliar with the characters with the most informative profile possible. So for instance, writing things like "level 21+, but probably substantially higher" would be informative and accurate (and add links to each of the last 3 words of that sentence). Or saying "level 21+, but probably not higher than level 28 as of issue X" would be helpful info. Lots of stats provide ranges and estimates for this very reason, so that readers can better get a feel for the characters. I have no idea why it's sensible to do for Constitution, but not for say the characters level.

No. That has not been what this thread has done, for the 7+ years (can't remember exactly) that it has been around. We have always avoided listing information until we were sure of what it was.

New Forum Game:
Every time Mage Paradox says occam's razor, you have to take a drink

Sorry, I only drink milk, and I don't want a calcium overdose.

EDIT: since there have been no silly suggestions for the last page and a half, I suggest that we consider listing V as half-camel.

[rgrekejin]

since there have been no silly suggestions for the last page and a half, I suggest that we consider listing V as half-camel.

I mean, Elan even says he can see the hump. It's good enough for me.

[YukiArtolia]

I think Belkar's Wisdom can be confirmed as 9.

Way back during the first fight with Nale and the Linear Guild, Belkar was called upon to use a couple Cure Serious Wounds scrolls to prevent Elan from dying. One of the requirements to use a scroll is that you have to have the ability score to be able to cast the spell, and Use Magic Device is not a class skill for Rangers, so he can't exactly cheat that way.

Cure Serious Wounds is a fourth-level Ranger spell, which means that even with Owl's Wisdom giving +4, he'd need 10, which doesn't have an ability score penalty, which doesn't make sense...

...but it's also a third-level Cleric spell, which would need Wisdom 13. Take away the +4 from Owl's Wisdom, and that leaves Belkar with 9 -- low enough that it both has an ability score penalty and renders him unable to spellcast without Owl's Wisdom.

[SaintRidley]

I think Belkar's Wisdom can be confirmed as 9.

Way back during the first fight with Nale and the Linear Guild, Belkar was called upon to use a couple Cure Serious Wounds scrolls to prevent Elan from dying. One of the requirements to use a scroll is that you have to have the ability score to be able to cast the spell, and Use Magic Device is not a class skill for Rangers, so he can't exactly cheat that way.

Cure Serious Wounds is a fourth-level Ranger spell, which means that even with Owl's Wisdom giving +4, he'd need 10, which doesn't have an ability score penalty, which doesn't make sense...

...but it's also a third-level Cleric spell, which would need Wisdom 13. Take away the +4 from Owl's Wisdom, and that leaves Belkar with 9 -- low enough that it both has an ability score penalty and renders him unable to spellcast without Owl's Wisdom.

Considering they're probably cleric scrolls, too, it would make sense.

[Kish]

I think Belkar's Wisdom can be confirmed as 9.

You think Belkar's Wisdom is only slightly below average? Really?

[137beth]

Considering they're probably cleric scrolls, too, it would make sense.

Scrolls don't have classes, there is no such thing as a "cleric scroll."

Also, this use to be in the FAQ, why is it not still there?

I mean, Elan even says he can see the hump. It's good enough for me.

Plus he hangs around with other humped creatures, like Durkon (after Belkar dropped a hammer on him), and actual camels. Also, he/she has cast an illusion on his/her hump to make it look like a raven.

EDIT:
Also, MP, I don't know why you keep complaining that there aren't any nonepic "core" magic items which grant fire immunity, and then insisting that we should somehow assume that Xykon must automatically have a very specific non-core ring (perhaps you don't realize that the epic level handbook is not "core"?)

[Codyage]

On the subject of Belkar reading Scrolls. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

Panel 5

Decipher the Writing

The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level).

Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that he or she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.

Does this mean Belkar has ranks in Spellcraft? (I don't remember if he has Read Magic cast on him earlier, but Spellcraft checks are trained only.)

[Kurald Galain]

Scrolls don't have classes, there is no such thing as a "cleric scroll."

Actually there is. The SRD points out that a divine scroll of a spell that has different levels for (e.g.) cleric and paladin defaults to the cleric's. This matters because the scroll's price depends on its level; the price is dependent on its creator, not its buyer.

Also, MP, I don't know why you keep complaining that there aren't any nonepic "core" magic items which grant fire immunity, and then insisting that we should somehow assume that Xykon must automatically have a very specific non-core ring (perhaps you don't realize that the epic level handbook is not "core"?)

Also, good point. Core means PHB1+DMG1+MM1; the SRD also makes a clear distinction on its front page between "Core rules" and other kinds of rules.

[Living Oxymoron]

Plus, the Epic Level Handbook is 3.0.

[KillingAScarab]

Does this mean Belkar has ranks in Spellcraft? (I don't remember if he has Read Magic cast on him earlier, but Spellcraft checks are trained only.)

Well, read magic has a range of personal, so no spellcaster would be able to target him with it under normal circumstances. He does not normally have the requisite ability score to cast any ranger spells, so he would not have been able to cast it upon himself, unless there's freaky backstory to explain that he once did (I highly doubt this). Hinjo and Niu have been able to use scrolls of sending. As a paladin, Hinjo has access to read magic and not spellcraft. As a fighter/rogue, Niu has neither benefit.

It is also worth noting that normally a spellcraft check to decipher a scroll is a full-round action. Even a read magic spell reads a page in a minute. Vaarsuvius didn't seem to take 2 or 11 rounds to dismiss a titanium elemental, it was only a standard action for activation.

[Codyage]

Well, read magic has a range of personal, so no spellcaster would be able to target him with it under normal circumstances. He does not normally have the requisite ability score to cast any ranger spells, so he would not have been able to cast it upon himself, unless there's freaky backstory to explain that he once did (I highly doubt this). Hinjo and Niu have been able to use scrolls of sending. As a paladin, Hinjo has access to read magic and not spellcraft. As a fighter/rogue, Niu has neither benefit.

It is also worth noting that normally a spellcraft check to decipher a scroll is a full-round action. Even a read magic spell reads a page in a minute. Vaarsuvius didn't seem to take 2 or 11 rounds to dismiss a titanium elemental, it was only a standard action for activation.

Decipher the Writing

The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level).

Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that he or she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.

I think V would have checked the scroll before battle instead of hoping that they were dismissal. Especially when he said they were purchased to do the trick.

Edit: Niu gets Use Magic Device