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2012-09-01, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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2012-09-01, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Being plausible and believable isn't requirement only for "serious" stories.
You could show me Belkar suddenly casting disintegrate next strip, and I still would condemn that even if this story "never took itself too seriously".
Also, I would add, if one dislikes the mode by which Rich chooses to tell his most excellent story, why would one continue to read the comic? I would say that one is drawn in by the way Rich spins his tale, so like it or not, he has done his job.
There have always been up and downs with the storytelling, disliking the downs isn't reason enough to "leave", nor are the ups reason enough to ignore/justify the downs.
I always found the whole "you don't like it? leave" argument silly.
What I don't like I strive to criticize, hoping to see it improved, rather than leaving the burning house together with everything still of value.Last edited by Mantine; 2012-09-01 at 01:08 PM.
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2012-09-01, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-09-01, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-09-01, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
I don't know, I was not debating with you and have no idea what you're referring to, particularly since you didn't bother to quote yourself. I am just letting you know hyperbole does not typically work well in a textual environment.
I have to wonder why you are trying to debate that point with me... since you JUST had to explain to someone you were engaging in hyperbole. If you needed evidence to my claim that hyperbole does not work well online, the fact you had to explain what it was you were doing should suffice :POfficial Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-09-01, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
I get what you are saying. I'm not saying you are not entitled to disagree. Not even suggesting you, in particular, should leave. Was commenting that, generally speaking, there seem to be several people who disagree with how Rich chooses to tell, at bare minimum, parts, of his story. And despite their protestations, they continue to read, which leads me to conclude Rich may be a better storyteller than they give him credit for.
Also saying that just because you seem to find this latest exploit implausible, doesn't mean that I have to as well. I'm saying that, in this situation, it is a matter of perception. We both can be "right" without either of us being "wrong." Saying that you don't have the market cornered on what is REALLY plausible (as in universally true for everyone) any more than the rest of us do.Last edited by joca4christ; 2012-09-01 at 01:31 PM.
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2012-09-01, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Mantine; 2012-09-01 at 01:42 PM.
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2012-09-01, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Tarquin is high level, cunning, very experienced, successful. Really, what is so unplausible and unbelievable in his being able to communicate efficiently with his fellow party members while commanding a retreat at the appropriate moment, in the circumstances (smoke clearing, battle not going the right way)...?
If the reader hasn't gotten that Tarquin is supposed to be kickass by now, well... too bad for that reader.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2012-09-01, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
The default assumption for any standard D&D based world is that any Wizard of sufficient level does know Teleport, and has at least one prepared at all times. The Wizards that don't (like Vaarsuvius) are the ones that need special explanation.
But yeah, the irrational hatred of Tarquin is getting old.'F' is the fire that rains from the Sky
'U' for Uranium, BOMB!
'N' is for No Survivors...
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2012-09-01, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-09-01, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-09-01, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Tarquin being hyper-competent at everything has become a running gag. Of course he knows Drow Sign Language!
Hmm. Perhaps he's really an epic level Factotum...
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2012-09-01, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
The original complaint about Tarquin was that he was soooo powerful and epic that the Order couldn't plausibly defeat him.
At this point, he's just a swiss-army-knife of moderately effective gimmicks and schticks.
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2012-09-01, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
"If Tarquin seems to be deaf, he's faking, 'cause I said so" between #859 and #860 comes to mind. Some of the recent posts in the "Tarquin's end" thread also qualify as lauding Tarquin/singing Tarquin's praises.
The people who hate Tarquin tend to not complain when Tarquin's just taken a pratfall, and the people who love him tend to not complain when he's victorious, predictably enough.Last edited by Kish; 2012-09-01 at 02:39 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-09-01, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-09-01, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Huzzah for the Order to finally start getting some positive results without massive outside help(I'm looking at you EoB fights). However, the person who complained about arcane casters able to undo such an ambush w/ one spell, seems to have forgotten just how devastating a single divine spell was(1 banished, 1 paralyzed, 2 arcane casters w/ 20% spell failure[one of whom specializes in enchantment spells so deafening allies who have poor will saves is nice, btw I really think there needs to be a vocalize spell rather than the silent spell feat]). Also surprised paranoid illusionist didn't cast a dimension anchor or add it to one of the many traps that litter the place.
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2012-09-01, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
I was the one who said that, and it was proven correct. Tarquin wasn't effected by Durkon's Holy Word because he was too high level, as I speculated. I even gave evidence for my side, not 'cause I said so, and asked you to provide any evidence that Tarquin wasn't high level, which you didn't.
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2012-09-01, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Because?
Also surprised paranoid illusionist didn't cast a dimension anchor or add it to one of the many traps that litter the place.
Supposing, for an instant, that Girard was able to make an Epic Dimensional Lock the same radius and duration as Cloister despite Girard being known for illusions, not for abjurations. Since we already know Durkon couldn't divine the way and so we can't reduce the presumed power of this spell by losing the "blocks scrying" ability of Cloister, that means this spell is strictly better than Cloister by a lot. But never mind that.
It would have expired years ago, without Girard alive to recast it.
Ah, Smolder? You said he was faking.
He wasn't faking. He never pretended to be deafened. In fact, he immediately bragged (if only to himself and us-outside-the-fourth-wall) about being strong enough not to be.
That's you being proven incorrect.
I even gave evidence for my side, not 'cause I said so, and asked you to provide any evidence that Tarquin wasn't high level, which you didn't.
The extent of the currently available evidence of Tarquin's level indicates that he is at least one level higher than Durkon. At least two levels higher, if Rich didn't forget about/ignore Durkon's having the Good domain, which also requires Nale, Belkar, and Zz'dtri to be exactly one level higher than Durkon, which I would consider rather unlikely, and so I go with "at least one level higher than Durkon." If we get evidence that he is higher level than Xykon, I will acknowledge it; if we get evidence that he is exactly one level above Durkon, I will acknowledge it.Last edited by Kish; 2012-09-01 at 03:01 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-09-01, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
D'oh!
He definitely didn't try to sneak attack the Order or anything like that, so yeah, I was totally wrong.
It wouldn't even have worked, because Nale would have ended up dead if T had done anything else.Last edited by Smolder; 2012-09-01 at 03:22 PM.
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2012-09-01, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-09-01, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
I for one am surprised that Tarquin didn't solo the whole party. he must be lower-level than we thought.
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2012-09-01, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-01, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Hrm. I'm not sure I agree with you here, though I was only using that term because others had used it already in an effort to show why it didn't matter.
Drow sign-language functions as a device in the story - it doesn't have to be a device as in an object. From the perspective of someone calling this a Deus Ex Machina and bashing it as a result, it's improbable that Tarquin would just happen to know the best and most efficient method of communicating with a deaf teammate whom he has barely known for more than a few days.
It may not be resolving anything for the heroes, but that isn't necessary either. It's resolving the difficulties encountered by the LG by allowing them to make an escape - the definition you provided made no reference to protagonists. Who it's being used for is entirely irrelevant, so long as it resolves some plot difficulty that wouldn't be resolvable otherwise.
Yes, the most common usage is to resolve everything for the heroes in one fell swoop and then proceed with tying up loose ends and finishing the story, but that isn't the only way they show up. I'll quote the TVTropes description for contrast:
A Deus ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way. If the secret documents are in Russian, one of the spies suddenly reveals that they learned the language.
Nothing wrong with that, of course; as I said before, tropes are neither inherently good nor bad, these ones included.
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2012-09-01, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Snrk.
But it's still a bit of a Chekov's Gun Deus Ex Machina.
See, this is what I'm talking about. Those terms are mutually exclusive, something cannot be both foreshadowed and arbitrarily introduced. The fact you use them synonymously continues to make it really difficult for me to view your argument as legitimate...
Sorry!Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-09-01 at 06:48 PM.
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English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-09-01, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
I should point out here that Zz'dtri has been shown to have Dimension Door, which would perform the same immediate purpose. I do agree that it's reasonable for Tarquin to know the Drow language.
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2012-09-01, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Tarquin thought that the Drows were planning to join an alliance with him to fight there above ground enemies, why wouldnt he learn there language(s)?
and considering that the LG had tons of space to traverse it makes sense to prepare teleport
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2012-09-01, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
"ELAN IS IT COOL IF I KILL YOUR BROTHER WHAT CAN'T HEAR YOUR ANSWER SORRY!"
Geez, I heart Belkar.
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2012-09-01, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
This, Me thinks, is a something akin to playing the board game Risk. A good player takes out another player when they have an opportunity and the player has cards to collect from him.
A Great player lets a rival attack another rival and then take them out when there weakest. I think Tarquin could've taken on the OotS, but chose not to, as they are just prodding the Order to do their dirty work for them. (find the traps, find the gate, defend it from Xykon and such)
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2012-09-01, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
To those still intent on bashing Tarquin because he's apparently prepared to pull rabbits out of other peoples bungholes when he's in a pinch I have to say this. That's Tarquin in a nutshell. A not necessarily paranoid eccentric who's been everywhere, done everything, and has a story to tell about it.
Now, if the comic were full of characters like him, folks who, at the drop of a hat, pulled out the best possible tool or plan to deal with their current problem, then OK, there would be a problem. But so far as I am aware, there's only one Tarquin.
As for the Linear Guild escaping again, every other time the LG has escaped, they were first captured. In Durokan's Dungeon: Captured. In Cliffport: Captured. In Azure City: Captured, then apparently killed. Empire of Blood? Captured, defeated and or apparently killed. In this instance, however, there's a difference, what Tarquin has done here is make a strategic retreat. Did Tarquin get away? Yes. Did he run full tilt, tail between his legs? I'd say no. He got out while the getting was good, and as to the way he did it, what was keeping him from pulling out a pad and pencil and writing 'Get us out, bring accountant'? Nothing. But since this is Tarwuin we are taking about, the guy who's been everywhere and done everything, and done it all with style, he decided to communicate with Z in a manner that has a little style and flair.
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2012-09-01, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
Not synonymously, no. It's either one or the other (or both), depending how you want to view it. Either Tarquin's links with the drow were enough to foreshadow him knowing drown sign language, making it a Chekov's Gun, or they weren't, making it a Deus Ex Machina. Or it was foreshadowed enough to make it a mild Chekov's Gun, but used in a completely unexpected way to solve the major pressing issue of that group of characters, thus also making it a Deus Ex Machina. It's unusual, but something can be both at the same time, at least in my opinion (and not just mine, it would seem). *shrug*
Very much agreed!