Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

[AMX]

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[Hjolnai]

It may also be an issue of cost. If a mail link is damaged or broken by an arrow and the arrow then stops in the gambeson, this would be more expensive to fix than if the gambeson is punctured and the mail stops the arrow.

This would be more pronounced in plate, if dealing with a crossbow bolt (I wouldn't expect any bow to do more than dent plate, when not finding a good gap), because just patching the hole is not going to be very effective.

[Brother Oni]

It may also be an issue of cost. If a mail link is damaged or broken by an arrow and the arrow then stops in the gambeson, this would be more expensive to fix than if the gambeson is punctured and the mail stops the arrow.

As I understood the texts, it refer to wearing a second gambeson or other textile armour over the mail, since you always wear something under the mail.

I'm unfamiliar with how gambesons are repaired (I assume cloth patches rather than just the hole sewn up), but replacing a damaged link takes from about 30 seconds for split links (all you need is a pair of pliers) to a bit longer for riveted links (need a hammer and anvil for this) so it may depend on availability of materials and whether a tailor or blacksmith is closer.

...I wouldn't expect any bow to do more than dent plate, when not finding a good gap...

Depends on the armour thickness and the arrow head.

There's a paper where they did some warbow penetration tests against plate armour: A report of the findings of the Defence Academy warbow trials Part 1 Summer 2005.

Essentially it found that good quality late Medieval armour thicker than 3mm would defeat any arrow from a 150lb draw warbow.

All three arrow heads tested (long bodkin, short bodkin and lozenge) would penetrate 1.15mm while the latter two would penetrate 2mm plate.

This is all at a 90 degree impact angle, so in reality 2mm would probably be fairly effective, and the plate didn't have an arming doublet or other padding behind it, further reducing the effectiveness of the test.

[TimeWizard]

What's the design idea behind the Kukri? I can't think of why you wouldn't rather have a hatchet or a knife, but that may just be my Western bias.

[endoperez]

What's the design idea behind the Kukri? I can't think of why you wouldn't rather have a hatchet or a knife, but that may just be my Western bias.

Europe had bladed tools with a similar (but not the exact same) top-heavy shape.

A billhook has a similar curve, at least in some cases. I understand it's often used with a hatchet, and some versions are basically just big and heavy knives. I haven't used a machete, but I imagine a billhook (and a kukri?) would be used in a pretty similar way.

[Rhynn]

Also compare the kukri to the Greek kopis and makhaira swords, the Canaanite sickle-sword (usually known by the Egyptian name, khopesh), the Iberian falcata. The kukri has a slightly more pronounced curve. It basically makes for good single-edged chopping/cleaving/hacking, and seems to have been more common in ancient swords (which were probably mostly bronze or poor iron, which necessiated different design from later steel swords).

The Dacian rhomphaia and Thracian falx of ancient Europe were also similarly curved.

The kukri is supposedly able to decapitate a man in a single blow, but that sounds unlikely. (Not just because of the kukri's size, either.)

[Brother Oni]

What's the design idea behind the Kukri? I can't think of why you wouldn't rather have a hatchet or a knife, but that may just be my Western bias.

From Wikipedia, it seems that the khukri is intended more for slashing/chopping motions and would hence have an advantage over a machete using the same stroke.

I would indeed think it's your Western bias, since the Gurkhas still use the khukri as both weapon and utility tool, and given their reputation, I seriously doubt they would continue to carry it if it were a subpar implement.

The kukri is supposedly able to decapitate a man in a single blow, but that sounds unlikely. (Not just because of the kukri's size, either.)

I'm not sure of the circumstances, but there was recent incident which suggests that did happen.
A unit from the Royal Gurkha Rifles were told to bring back a high value target's body (a Taliban commander) for DNA testing for identification. While they were recovering the body, they came under heavy fire and low on ammo, a private took the decision to remove the dead target's head and bring that back instead of dragging the heavy body back

I seriously doubt that in those circumstances, it would have taken him more than a couple swings (if multiple swings were required) to remove the head, although I'll admit the only real proof would be to perform a cutting test.

[warty goblin]

Also compare the kukri to the Greek kopis and makhaira swords, the Canaanite sickle-sword (usually known by the Egyptian name, khopesh), the Iberian falcata. The kukri has a slightly more pronounced curve. It basically makes for good single-edged chopping/cleaving/hacking, and seems to have been more common in ancient swords (which were probably mostly bronze or poor iron, which necessiated different design from later steel swords).

The Dacian rhomphaia and Thracian falx of ancient Europe were also similarly curved.

The kukri is supposedly able to decapitate a man in a single blow, but that sounds unlikely. (Not just because of the kukri's size, either.)

My understanding is that the khopesh was sharpened on the outside edge of the curve, not the inside.

Thinking about it, the advantage of a forwards curved blade should be rather substantial. On the draw cut the curvature should cause the blade to track deeper into the cut. The extremis of the blade where it arcs back to the spine to form the tip has a fairly extreme curvature, much more than is practical in a traditionally curved sword. Curved blades obviously cut better than straight, and the steeper the curve, the better the cut. It also sets the widest part of the blade right where you'd naturally strike your enemy, again leading to better cutting performance.

I've also read that such blades thrust better than one would expect.

[Spiryt]

Well, there's absolutely nothing in this story indicating that he had removed the head with one, or even few cuts.

In this situation it's really hard to talk about "blows" either, it was damn dead body, so in fact head could be very well be 'sawed off' for clean job and less exposure to fire.

So it cannot prove anything.

But anyway, AFAIR, a lot of kukri's are in fact of pretty much almost 'swordlike' proportions, so I wouldn't doubt that they can chop something off with one good blow at all.

http://www.antiqueswords.com/product...htm#ad-image-0

[JustSomeGuy]

Guys: As luck would have it, i have an authentic nepalese kukhri (i served 18 months with a ghurka unit a few years back, so i'm pretty confident it's the real deal). Is there anything not-to-crazy to arrange to test it's chopping ability? For what it's worth, it's weighted pretty well - as well as being pretty weighty - towards chopping as best i can tell, and i have no doubts it could easily get to bone in one hit... although whether it'd carry on through is another matter.

[warty goblin]

Guys: As luck would have it, i have an authentic nepalese kukhri (i served 18 months with a ghurka unit a few years back, so i'm pretty confident it's the real deal). Is there anything not-to-crazy to arrange to test it's chopping ability? For what it's worth, it's weighted pretty well - as well as being pretty weighty - towards chopping as best i can tell, and i have no doubts it could easily get to bone in one hit... although whether it'd carry on through is another matter.

First, that's totally awesome.

Second, how much do you want to have a cookout? My impulse would be to get something like a bone-in pork shoulder, hang it up over a tarp, and give it a couple whacks before BBQing up the results.

[Thiel]

What's the design idea behind the Kukri? I can't think of why you wouldn't rather have a hatchet or a knife, but that may just be my Western bias.

It's awfully hard to skin a goat with a hatchet, cut firewood with a knife or dig holes with either. The Kukri is a utility knife and it does all three passably well.

[Brother Oni]

Well, there's absolutely nothing in this story indicating that he had removed the head with one, or even few cuts.

Hence why I stated I was unsure of the details at the very start.

In this situation it's really hard to talk about "blows" either, it was damn dead body, so in fact head could be very well be 'sawed off' for clean job and less exposure to fire.

I do dispute this one though. Have you ever tried to saw through a joint with a knife? You don't saw it, you chop it as any good butcher or chef will tell you.
Given the neck is essentially just a mass of joints, sawing at it isn't time efficient.

Guys: As luck would have it, i have an authentic nepalese kukhri (i served 18 months with a ghurka unit a few years back, so i'm pretty confident it's the real deal). Is there anything not-to-crazy to arrange to test it's chopping ability? For what it's worth, it's weighted pretty well - as well as being pretty weighty - towards chopping as best i can tell, and i have no doubts it could easily get to bone in one hit... although whether it'd carry on through is another matter.

First off - nice.

Secondly, I'd suggest a good thick chopping board (to protect the knife and yourself) and either a nice shoulder joint or a big rack of ribs and attempt to use the kukhri as a butcher's knife substitute.

[Rhynn]

Guys: As luck would have it, i have an authentic nepalese kukhri (i served 18 months with a ghurka unit a few years back, so i'm pretty confident it's the real deal). Is there anything not-to-crazy to arrange to test it's chopping ability? For what it's worth, it's weighted pretty well - as well as being pretty weighty - towards chopping as best i can tell, and i have no doubts it could easily get to bone in one hit... although whether it'd carry on through is another matter.

Hang a dead pig up, chop it in the neck, measure depth of penetration... it probably won't correspond closely enough, though, since you'll have to cut through more fat and meat before you even get to the bone. But chopping various parts of a dead pig with a kukri would probably get you some idea about how well it would cut into a human.

The craziness level is probably a matter of taste.

[GraaEminense]

Whole pig is the best, but any sizeable chunk of an animal of similar size or bigger will do. Preferably complete, with skin, fat, sinew and bone in addition to the yummy bits. Legs are good.

Hang it high with a tarp under it, prepare for BBQ and start chopping bits off. If you have enough animal, take the opportunity to compare your kukri to other sharp implements you have around -kitchen knives, hatchets and the like.

It´s a wholesome learning experience and good eating too.

[JustSomeGuy]

Guys, remember the whole 'not too crazy' bit - i'm not going to start hacking up a pig in my kitchen!! I've got a butternut squash int cupboard, would that do for now? I'll look at some meat based options next time i go shopping, next week sometime! I'll try and figure out videoing it on youtube and then you guys can laugh at my limp wristed attacks while judging the massacred vegetable deal.

[warty goblin]

Guys, remember the whole 'not too crazy' bit - i'm not going to start hacking up a pig in my kitchen!! I've got a butternut squash int cupboard, would that do for now? I'll look at some meat based options next time i go shopping, next week sometime! I'll try and figure out videoing it on youtube and then you guys can laugh at my limp wristed attacks while judging the massacred vegetable deal.

Butternut squash is, in my experience, a bit tougher than meat due to that hard outer shell*, though probably softer than bone. The real issue fun part is that you're going to end up with squash guts everywhere. I suggest doing this out of doors.

Because the squash is unlikely to be in particularly good shape after the first hit, maybe take a couple practice chops at a bit of soft wood or something? I know in my limited experience cutting things to remind myself beforehand that the blade will in fact go through. Otherwise there's a part of the brain which pulls the cut at the last minute so you don't put a lot of stress on your arm and hurt something.

*The hard outer shell is also slightly brittle. I used to cut up excess overgrown zucchini for my chickens using a tiling spade. If I torqued the blade a bit on impact, the fruit tended to split rather than cut. Later I used a machette for the same job, and this tended to happen a lot less, probably because a machette's blade is flat instead of curved like a shovel's.

[Galloglaich]

If you don't want something so messy, you can try foam pool noodles.

Plastic water bottles are also a decent substitute; you just balance them on top of something and if you cut well, the top will fall off while the bottom stays in place with the water still in it. Some types of water bottles are a lot harder than others, milk jugs are really easy, two-liter soda bottles a little harder.

And you can get cheap straw mats, ideally rice straw mats, soak them in water, and roll them up to cut them

I know in my limited experience cutting things to remind myself beforehand that the blade will in fact go through. Otherwise there's a part of the brain which pulls the cut at the last minute so you don't put a lot of stress on your arm and hurt something.

This is very true... most of us are not used to cutting through something. Cutting is surprisingly a lot like shooting, the same type of relaxation and breathing control helps a great deal. It's also a lot of fun for most of the same reasons.

If you do the thing with the pork shoulder or pig carcass, make sure you put down a few tarps, as the pieces tend to fly pretty far. Every time we did that we ended up having to rinse off some big hunks of meat before throwing them in the BBQ.


G

[Yora]

Plastic water bottles are also a decent substitute; you just balance them on top of something and if you cut well, the top will fall off while the bottom stays in place with the water still in it. Some types of water bottles are a lot harder than others, milk jugs are really easy, two-liter soda bottles a little harder.

I wonder how the reusable bottles used by Coca Cola in Germany would fare. They are really tough and were marketed as indestructable when they were introduced 20 years ago.

[warty goblin]

This is very true... most of us are not used to cutting through something. Cutting is surprisingly a lot like shooting, the same type of relaxation and breathing control helps a great deal. It's also a lot of fun for most of the same reasons.

G

What I found surprising was just how much difference this made. A couple years ago I was clearing scrub, and for one reason or another the only tools I had available were old kitchen knives. When I started my cuts would bite a quarter or half an inch. Once I started thinking the knife could go through something, it nearly always did. By the end I could knock it through a two inch diameter branch in one go without any real difficulty.

[inexorabletruth]

I'm trying to remember the name of a specific type of club.

I remember seeing it in Tanzania, Africa:
It's a kind of shillelagh with that tapers to a sharp point at one end and a mallet on the other end that looks kind of like the head of a golf club, about 16 inches long and made of ebony. If I remember the history behind it, it's more a weapon of status than combat. Tribal leaders or shamans would brandish these weapons to show their importance.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[DrewID]

I'm trying to remember the name of a specific type of club.

I remember seeing it in Tanzania, Africa:
It's a kind of shillelagh with that tapers to a sharp point at one end and a mallet on the other end that looks kind of like the head of a golf club, about 16 inches long and made of ebony. If I remember the history behind it, it's more a weapon of status than combat. Tribal leaders or shamans would brandish these weapons to show their importance.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Possibly Rungu, "a wooden throwing club or baton bearing special symbolism and significance in certain East African tribal cultures." (Wikipedia). Optionally, take a look at the entry on Club, which lists several ethnic variants.

DrewID

[inexorabletruth]

I think it is the Rungu. That sounds right. But for the one I saw, it had been sharpened to a spear-like point on the other end. Probably a variation...

Thanks for the help!

[JustSomeGuy]

Here they are guys, somewhat underwhelming and excessively long... to be fair, you could probably watch just video 2 and skip all my messing about. I think the khukri did reasonably well, given that it was both a blunt tool and wielded by a [i'm sure you get where i'm going with that...]

http://youtu.be/LRIUy0GoA08

http://youtu.be/WGX8r5KQqzY

EDIT: Also, i'm sure i coulda got more 'damage' if i had room to swing it properly and use two hands (as learnt from the other thread!), although you could perhaps reduce the damage to a living creature by removing the fact it was sitting on a chopping board and not swinging freely from a creature's torso - although perhaps mass and inertia would hold a larger limb (or neck) still more effectively? Who knows the mysteries of these things...

[Brother Oni]

I like the hat.

It seems to me that the curve of kukhri appeared to be throwing your aim off a bit, but I'm fairly sure if it were sharpened and with a bit more practice, you'd do even better.

Only other comment I'll make is that your free hand was wavering a bit too close to the cutting point at times and from personal experience of butchering meat, that's a very good way of losing fingers when trying to cut through bone (seriously, I was wincing at times as I was expecting screaming and blood spurting from severed fingers).

[Matthew]

Very entertaining!

[Galloglaich]

Here they are guys, somewhat underwhelming and excessively long... to be fair, you could probably watch just video 2 and skip all my messing about. I think the khukri did reasonably well, given that it was both a blunt tool and wielded by a [i'm sure you get where i'm going with that...]

http://youtu.be/LRIUy0GoA08

http://youtu.be/WGX8r5KQqzY

EDIT: Also, i'm sure i coulda got more 'damage' if i had room to swing it properly and use two hands (as learnt from the other thread!), although you could perhaps reduce the damage to a living creature by removing the fact it was sitting on a chopping board and not swinging freely from a creature's torso - although perhaps mass and inertia would hold a larger limb (or neck) still more effectively? Who knows the mysteries of these things...

Ok first of all, really enjoyed watching the video, cheers for doing it all and posting it. The hat was a nice touch! You could see clearly the difference in effectiveness between the kukri and the kitchen knife.

Fun isn't it?

A few comments, for what little they are worth:

That is a nice kurkri, if you sand off those rust spots and put a little ordinary 3-1 oil on it it will stay nice for a long time. Shame to let it rust. It will also keep better if you store it outside of the sheath, especially if you live in a humid area.

The kurkri (and the kitchen knife) will cut better if you touch them up a bit with a sharpener.

I agree with brother Oni, be careful with your hands.

If you watch the video, you'll notice there was a pretty big difference in how well it cut depending on where you hit it on the blade. When you hit it in the 'sweet spot' (the broad part just past the curve) you cut a lot deeper.

If you have a back yard and have time for it, I'd recommend another experiment: hang the pigs foot from a rope, or tape it to a stake and drive that into the ground, and then cut. A lot of your cuts on the counter were hitting the counter, which was stopping the blade from making progress. Kind of 'percussive' cuts. I'd also recommend the pool noodle for a little bit of practice, you stick on of those into a wooden stake or a little pvc pipe or something, drive that into your lawn, and hack away. Pretty quickly you'll see some progress in how you are cutting as you learn what works and what doesn't.

Finally... I think I have to take up the challenge! I'll film our next little cutting party and post to youtube, and I'll make sure we get a pigs foot to cut with. Maybe I can organize something this weekend.

G

[Galloglaich]

Here is a short clip of a guy who was visiting our group from Sweden cutting milk jugs (which are very easy to cut) but as you see, if you cut reasonably well, the bottle will stay on the platform with the water still in it even with a piece sliced off.

This was his first time cutting so he missed pretty often but .... you get the idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1MPSi2JEI

G

[JustSomeGuy]

I have since had some further thoughts on the matter:

It was really awkward trying to swing that in a meaningful way, the curve is definately a big part of that (but eve nwithout having a weighted curved chopping edge, i was not using the full length of the blade to get enough rotational and linear speed into the hits), but also i don't think i was using it effectively - far too little wrist rotation and downward/backward chopping, it feels to me on playback that i'm almost trying to karate chop with a tool. I would like to add that in no way do i have any experience doing anything with that style of motor pattern so it was pretty alien to me... perhaps if i have room to step and swing in a more rotational pattern (similar to a hook punch) i'd hopefully do better tha nrelying on brute force and ignorance. Weapon proficiency is no joke people! Also, i was kinda surprised just how innefective both tools were, but especially the kitchen knife. I'm not wholly decided (or knowledgeable) on how much difference there would be between the chops i made and more of a slash (and definately a thrust), but in fighting off a home intruder movie style, i'd expect more stopping power from a big kitchen knife. Also, ALL GLORY TO THE HAT i'm already thinking of trying it out again, it seems like it could be addictive!

[Brother Oni]

It was really awkward trying to swing that in a meaningful way, the curve is definately a big part of that (but eve nwithout having a weighted curved chopping edge, i was not using the full length of the blade to get enough rotational and linear speed into the hits), but also i don't think i was using it effectively - far too little wrist rotation and downward/backward chopping, it feels to me on playback that i'm almost trying to karate chop with a tool.

I don't think the motion you were using was wrong for the task at hand (cutting through the pig's trotter), just that your aim was off - as Galloglaich said, you need to hit the 'sweet spot' right at the outward curve.

Also, i was kinda surprised just how innefective both tools were, but especially the kitchen knife. I'm not wholly decided (or knowledgeable) on how much difference there would be between the chops i made and more of a slash (and definately a thrust), but in fighting off a home intruder movie style, i'd expect more stopping power from a big kitchen knife.

Typically in knife fights, thrusts are what cause the damage. Slashing, unless it hits an artery or severs a tendon, tends to be less effective.
Accordingly, the better knife in this situation would be one with a slim but not overly long blade to avoid hitting bones but not getting so deep to get stuck in the wound.

Getting through bones and joints is always tricky. During beheadings, it was a mark of a good headsman that could decapitate with a single blow (note that they used swords or large double handed axes).
Any executioner so cack handed to require several blows was usually villified by the crowd for causing excessive suffering.

For normal culinary work, getting through bone usually requires a cleaver of some sort:

Spoiler

Show

I'm used to using the second from the left in this picture.

There are some videos on youtube of the first knife in action (some street butchers in Hong Kong) and the ease that knife goes through flesh and bone can be quite chilling: link.