League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

[Recaiden]

I'm assuming they're taking away the percentage bonus and turning it into a flat bonus.

I hope those DFG nerfs don't happen because they'll basically kill Veigar.

They did say they were boosting the AP ratios, and if there's anything Veigar has a lot of, it's spare AP. I can imagine the ratio going up to 5% per hundred. I'm guessing it'll drop to 60 AP, and probably he'll also lose 5% CDR on it, which will hurt. But he won't be killed.

EDIT: Oh, it keeps the AP and loses all of its CDR. That's pretty different.

@V: My PBE is being slow to update, and I just now found the changes listed online. Definitely a nerf, as you only get more damage than the normal DFG after 1000 AP. Which Veiger can get, but is hardly guaranteed to reach.

[Mirrinus]

They did say they were boosting the AP ratios, and if there's anything Veigar has a lot of, it's spare AP. I can imagine the ratio going up to 5% per hundred. I'm guessing it'll drop to 60 AP, and probably he'll also lose 5% CDR on it, which will hurt. But he won't be killed.

The changes are already up on the PBE. DFG kept the 80 AP, but lost ALL of the CDR on it. The base damage on the active is now 15% (down from 25%) of target's health, with a 5% per 100 AP ratio (up from 4%).

Personally, I think it's an overkill nerf.

[Godskook]

Could be both, the abilities certainly fit.

Problem with that is I'm pretty sure no item ever loses stats upon upgrading. Some get adjustments(MR's passive changes when you turn it into MBR, but its still a strict upgrade in DPS), if the base item had a stat, the improved item is going to have it too.

[ChaosOS]

They're taking away the flat and keeping just the %, http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/s...-patch-preview

[Mephit]

@V: My PBE is being slow to update, and I just now found the changes listed online. Definitely a nerf. Although it does do more damage

Well, you need 1000 AP before you break even with the way it scales. So not really.

The nerf is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider the only champion it's a problem on is Evelynn. Outside of that, it's a good and viable item on a lot of APs, but it's not a dominant must-have item on anyone except short-range burst casters - and they're already underpowered right now.

[MCerberus]

Hmm I wonder why they chose to get rid of the CDR on Deathfire *coughRENGAR*

[Eldariel]

Hmm I wonder why they chose to get rid of the CDR on Deathfire *coughRENGAR*

It's really awesome how non-mana Mages now have to build Grail or Tome for CDR (or like...CDR Boots or Spirit Visage?). And Tome is **** so...yeah. Nice options. It was nice knowing you, month where Dominion mages could properly itemize CDR.

[Silverraptor]

Poor brand. Your passive is no longer special.

More like, "Hey Brand. You know you're passive? Well lets give it to you again to stack as well as a good item."

[9mm]

Well, you need 1000 AP before you break even with the way it scales. So not really.

The nerf is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider the only champion it's a problem on is Evelynn. Outside of that, it's a good and viable item on a lot of APs, but it's not a dominant must-have item on anyone except short-range burst casters - and they're already underpowered right now.

It was not just an eve problem, if it was they'd nerf the range or extend the sight radius. There wasn't a single caster it wasn't good on, while hitting as hard as some ULTS. Also it worked best on short range burst casters who would pair it with Lich Bane for ludicrous gibs. While I would like manaless cdr to still be available, I'm happy to see it dive off DFG.

[NineThePuma]

Could be both, the abilities certainly fit.

I'm on the PBE. It's just the one.

[Mephit]

It was not just an eve problem, if it was they'd nerf the range or extend the sight radius. There wasn't a single caster it wasn't good on, while hitting as hard as some ULTS. Also it worked best on short range burst casters who would pair it with Lich Bane for ludicrous gibs. While I would like manaless cdr to still be available, I'm happy to see it dive off DFG.

It's not that great on a lot of champions. Ranged champions that have no way of getting to the enemy carries don't really want to build it because they benefit far more from going straight damage. Morgana, Karthus or Cassio don't want it before building their core. It's not exactly the old Abyssal Sceptre where the range and damage increase was so massive you might as well build it on everyone.
Maybe it should be more of a niche item, but that doesn't warrant completely removing the CDR -and- butchering the active.

Sure, burst casters can gib people instantly with it if they're farmed, but that's what those characters are supposed to do. And even with DFG, they're still not that great. It boggles my mind that Riot seems to have a problem with the fact that these champions are working for once. Not dieing to burst casters if you're squishy is the same as for any other character: don't get caught. With Eve, that's really hard because she can just run up to you with her massive movement speed and can't really miss her skills. On top of that, you won't see it coming until a second before it happens, so your options for positioning are decimated.

Well, that's how I feel anyway, but I'm hugely biased as someone who enjoys playing Veigar.

[EndlessWrath]

While I would like manaless cdr to still be available, I'm happy to see it dive off DFG.

and I would like to see Riot positively improving champions and items to bring them up to the next level rather than see a large number of (some pretty serious) nerfs right after the world tournament. Buffs and nerfs are going to be necessary in a game, but I think Riot listens to the community whine about how strong something is rather than bring someone or something that's underpowered up to that level. I know this seems silly of me to say but I feel it is a major problem. The current mechanics of the game strongly encourage one type of metagame...where in a game like this there should be multiple meta's. We're going back to "have the ADC carry this game, everyone just support him". That typical Solotop, Mid mage, jungler and support bot ranged ADC strategy which is a great strategy... but shouldn't be the only one used. DFG nerfs hit mages in general, not just the item. Less mages are going to be played, when mages were comparatively underpowered anyway. I feel like bursty mages get a lot of flack for killing a carry really quickly.. but frankly I feel that isn't the greatest of arguments. They're a strong counter to characters like Yi, Ez, and Corki.. all of which has a move that scales 1:1 with attack damage and they can use it up to 2.5 times per second. On top of that they can have a % chance to double the amount of damage EVERY time that ability ticks. Furthermore bloodthirster is a fantastic item for each of them because not only does it give a full 100 damage if farmed (remember, a bonus 100 damage that can tick 2.5 times / second and crit) but it also gives you 25% lifesteal.. a quarter of the damage you deal. Sustained damage gets countered by lifesteal... Burst counters lifesteal.

I think it would have been better if DFG kept EITHER The current damage output OR the CDR... but this nerf is a bit heavy.

In addition, I'm not saying never nerf. Jayce and Rengar were in desperate need of balance... Sona gets..squishier, obviously I think that's dumb. Taric draven lane already claims her in a single stun anyway

I do miss that Soraka and Sona used to be opposite sides of the healing coin... One was burst and the other was Sustained healing... now sona's arguably a better healer than Soraka is

I know the post is a bit discombobulated, I'm sick.. but try to piece through it.

[PhoeKun]

For all of the discussion you guys are having about the DFG nerfs, you should remember that PBE changes are usually considerably more aggressive than what actually makes it through to the live environment.

Concerns are always worth bringing up, of course, but I can't help but feel some of the doomsaying is a touch premature.

In addition, I'm not saying never nerf. Jayce and Rengar were in desperate need of balance... Sona gets..squishier, obviously I think that's dumb. Taric draven lane already claims her in a single stun anyway

I think you can count the number of champions that Draven/Taric can't instagib inside of a dazzle/shatter combo on one hand. Meanwhile, I've long felt that when playing Sona that the enemy carry should fear me above whomever I'm supporting, because I'm the one they have no hope of evenly trading with.

Granted if they just make her squishier that's still true, but at least I won't be allowed to be a derp about it.

I do miss that Soraka and Sona used to be opposite sides of the healing coin... One was burst and the other was Sustained healing... now sona's arguably a better healer than Soraka is

I feel like if that's true you're not playing Sona right.

[PersonMan]

I do miss that Soraka and Sona used to be opposite sides of the healing coin... One was burst and the other was Sustained healing... now sona's arguably a better healer than Soraka is

To be honest, in my opinion, if you're healing for more than 70 + 0.45 AP for most of laning, you're doing it wrong, so this doesn't say much.

[TheShrike]

"have the ADC carry this game, everyone just support him"

I was talking with a friend about this, actually. It started because we had just played a game where I went 2/0/0 in top lane so I got a bit ahead, but I also had 120 CS to the opponents 20. So if one were to make a baseline gold amount that the average character will have in an average game at a given time, I was slightly ahead of it while my opponent was hugely behind.

Now, assuming everyone else in the game hits that baseline gold total exactly (maybe gets a kill, farms well, etc), the fact that I am not very far ahead means I'm strong, but not able to totally stomp everyone. Meanwhile, the enemy top lane (Jax, as it happens) is nearly totally useless. He can't jump on anyone as he does very little damage and dies instantly. This makes me slightly stronger, as a bruiser, but indirectly makes my AD carry much, much stronger.

Similarly, if you're in a lane where you're 5/0/0 with 120 CS, you're ahead. But if your opponent somehow managed to get 100 CS despite all the deaths, he's not very far behind. This means that you are strong, but he is not weak, and this makes the enemy AD carry indirectly weaker, as he has to deal with an unkillable death machine always in his face. Your AD carry, meanwhile, will be dealing with a bruiser who has decent damage and decent survivability, but no more than expected. Therefore, you are strong, but your team is not (comparatively).

Finally, where this all went was the fact that a couple months ago, AD carries lived in abject fear of bruisers. Bruisers were always too tanky to kill quickly and did so much damage you died to them right away. nowadays, bruisers are still beefy but they don't seem to be the one man army they used to be. We believe it comes down to two things: Supports are more aggressive. With Nunu, Leona and Blitz all fairly popular, there are a lot more kills going on bottom lane than there used to be. This gives the AD carry gold, putting him ahead of the bruiser, indirectly weakening said bruiser. Bruisers, meanwhile, have mostly stopped their little fling with damage and have gone back to super-tanky utility machines. This tankiness at the expense of damage means they're less likely to get as many kills as they used to in top lane, which means they have less chance of being far enough ahead of the AD carry to really be that unstoppable army.

[Mirrinus]

So, Blackfire Torch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this sound amazing on Swain? Assuming it works as a refreshable passive (like Rylai's), it can do sick things with damage over time spells. A normal spell just procs it for 5% damage over 3 seconds. Swain's Torment alone lasts 4 seconds and reapplies passive spell effects with each tic, so you get 7 seconds of the passive for almost 12% of the target's max HP in damage. Actually, it'll be more than that, because Torment also amplifies all damage Swain deals to the target. It's like adding a (nerfed) DFG effect to Swain's regular spells.

The best part is that it builds from a GP 10, which is always great to build, and a Catalyst, which Swain loves to get anyway. I can see this replacing Rod of Ages in Swain builds, since I'm pretty sure getting an extra free 15% of max HP in damage is worth more than 30 AP, especially if you don't even have to wait to stack it up.

[TechnOkami]

So, Blackfire Torch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this sound amazing on Swain? Assuming it works as a refreshable passive (like Rylai's), it can do sick things with damage over time spells. A normal spell just procs it for 5% damage over 3 seconds. Swain's Torment alone lasts 4 seconds and reapplies passive spell effects with each tic, so you get 7 seconds of the passive for almost 12% of the target's max HP in damage. Actually, it'll be more than that, because Torment also amplifies all damage Swain deals to the target. It's like adding a (nerfed) DFG effect to Swain's regular spells.

The best part is that it builds from a GP 10, which is always great to build, and a Catalyst, which Swain loves to get anyway. I can see this replacing Rod of Ages in Swain builds, since I'm pretty sure getting an extra free 15% of max HP in damage is worth more than 30 AP, especially if you don't even have to wait to stack it up.

Is this item unique to TT, or is it being added to SR too? (Basically yes, it sounds delicious on him)

[Mirrinus]

So far, it's TT only, which is a shame. I can see this being amazing on Karthus as well, since his Q counts as single-target instead of AoE if it damages only one target.

Others have mentioned it on Brand, due to synergy with his passive, but I think it's overall much better on sustained damage mages instead of burst mages.

[ex cathedra]

As far as anyone knows, all of these items are TT-only. Which makes a fair bit of sense considering that most mages like Swain are pretty not great on TT.

Still, though, eh. That's a bit gold investment on a champion who already requires several other big gold investments, but at least some players should get something out of it considering the staggering amount of people who rush RoA on Swain.

[Mirrinus]

The item is arguably cheaper than it looks, since you can sit on a Kage's Lucky Pick for a while before finally completing it.

[Eldariel]

As far as anyone knows, all of these items are TT-only. Which makes a fair bit of sense considering that most mages like Swain are pretty not great on TT.

Still, though, eh. That's a bit gold investment on a champion who already requires several other big gold investments, but at least some players should get something out of it considering the staggering amount of people who rush RoA on Swain.

I always found sustain mages to be insane in 3v3 in the right teamcomps due to the lesser amount of damage to kill them; if Swain doesn't get bursted down he soloes teams.

[Miscast_Mage]

Speaking of Swain, just had an amazing game with him in a Swain/Singed/Renek team vs Akali/Yi/Singed... or at least untill Singed DCed the entire game, and Renek... This player was, without a doubt, the most obnoxious, horrible, grating, raging, toxic player I have ever encountered. The worst part? We were absolutely dominating, so the game wouldn't end. Renek refused to ever take towers or push, and dear gods the game dragged on, all the while Renek was screaming and raging and commanding at every little thing.

This was one of the few games I have ever left, as niether side would surrender. I'm happy to have left that raging slime of a person. I still feel physically ill with his behaviour.

Yeah, think I'll be taking a break from League for a while.

[ex cathedra]

I always found sustain mages to be insane in 3v3 in the right teamcomps due to the lesser amount of damage to kill them; if Swain doesn't get bursted down he soloes teams.

AP Bruisers are still bruisers, and this is Treeline that we're talking about, after all. I don't really feel like Swain's base damages really compensate for his mana consumption compared to other TT mages, though.

So far, it's TT only, which is a shame. I can see this being amazing on Karthus as well, since his Q counts as single-target instead of AoE if it damages only one target.

Others have mentioned it on Brand, due to synergy with his passive, but I think it's overall much better on sustained damage mages instead of burst mages.

Absolutely. AP bruisers seem to get a lot out of it, since it's really solid flat damage increase that doesn't require you to build AP. Lichbane and DFG, on the other hand, really want you to stack AP. Torch is just, like, another form of base damage. Torch on Ryze, man. Torch on anyone who just stacks MPen.

[NineThePuma]

Who qualifies as an "ap bruiser"?

[Silverraptor]

Speaking of Swain, just had an amazing game with him in a Swain/Singed/Renek team vs Akali/Yi/Singed... or at least untill Singed DCed the entire game, and Renek... This player was, without a doubt, the most obnoxious, horrible, grating, raging, toxic player I have ever encountered. The worst part? We were absolutely dominating, so the game wouldn't end. Renek refused to ever take towers or push, and dear gods the game dragged on, all the while Renek was screaming and raging and commanding at every little thing.

This was one of the few games I have ever left, as niether side would surrender. I'm happy to have left that raging slime of a person. I still feel physically ill with his behaviour.

Yeah, think I'll be taking a break from League for a while.

Why didn't you just mute him?

[TheShrike]

Who qualifies as an "ap bruiser"?

Swain, Kennen, Vlad, sometimes Anivia, sometimes Amumu, Heimerdinger. People may say others.

[TechnOkami]

Why didn't you just mute him?

He probably forgot he could.

Also... Swain's perfectly viable as a mid mage on SR, right? I think I've asked this before...

Basic build for him goes like: Spell Boots, Catalyst to RoA, maybe early chalice (upgrading it last probably), death cap/Rylai's, hourglass, right?

[Joran]

He probably forgot he could.

Also, I met someone who took his trolling to the next level by introducing non-ASCII characters into his name so I couldn't just type "/ignore <dude's name>". Then my friend pointed out that I could ignore in the tab menu and I was much pleased.

[ex cathedra]

It obviously depends on itemization, but in general? Cho'Gath, Swain, Ryze, Vlad (AP bruiser carries gg), Diana, Galio, Kennen, Singed, and Amumu come immediately to mind as potential AP bruisers.

[Silverraptor]

Also, I met someone who took his trolling to the next level by introducing non-ASCII characters into his name so I couldn't just type "/ignore <dude's name>". Then my friend pointed out that I could ignore in the tab menu and I was much pleased.

Really? I didn't know you could do that? Can I ask how this can be done?