The Culture v's 40kverse

[Selrahc]

It's probably worth noting, there are Psykers who focus on controlling machines. But it's also worth noting that the more exotic and advanced a machine is, the harder it is to control. Eldar and Necron technology is already basically impossible to influence.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think it was more that the psykers hasty attack focused on the 'crew' of the ship rather than the ship, and hence the Mind, itself.

Oh, I see.

No, Psykers do not primarily attack the minds of their opponents. Psyking is more like "space magic" than traditional psychic powers: the standard Space Marine Librarian list of powers includes a fireball, a teleportation gate and opening a rift in the real/warp interface, for example. In fact, only the Eldar have the finesse to actually target the minds of their opponents and then only at comparatively short ranges.

The main reason why the IoM doesn't use these sorts of dramatic effects all the time is that the more powerful the Psyker the more likely they are to be spontaneously eaten by demons. Even Sanctioned Psykers need iron will to keep their souls intact.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, but boiling the minds is also a staple of psykers, so it's not to extraordinary. Also, any long-range attack would likely focus on the minds of the crew, the only thing a psyker could target at these distances

[Selrahc]

No, Psykers do not primarily attack the minds of their opponents. Psyking is more like "space magic" than traditional psychic powers: the standard Space Marine Librarian list of powers includes a fireball, a teleportation gate and opening a rift in the real/warp interface, for example. In fact, only the Eldar have the finesse to actually target the minds of their opponents and then only at comparatively short ranges

Of course you're running into the fact that we have very very rarely seen psychic powers be relevant at the kind of ranges involved in spaceship combat. Those powers we have seen that might be handy are all information gathering. The Psykers who do long range work are Astropaths, whose powers are based around the more traditional TK/telepathy spectrum.

Ships fight by shooting missiles, broadsides and energy beams at each other. Not by throwing psychic fire. I realize we're talking Holy Terra, home of the Scholastica Psykana, the Choir of the Empyrean Flame and multiples Alpha Pluses, so most of the normal rules are off, but there is no indication that the imperium has any ability to psychically attack ships at solar system ranges.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Of course you're running into the fact that we have very very rarely seen psychic powers be relevant at the kind of ranges involved in spaceship combat. Those powers we have seen that might be handy are all information gathering. The Psykers who do long range work are Astropaths, whose powers are based around the more traditional TK/telepathy spectrum.

Ships fight by shooting missiles, broadsides and energy beams at each other. Not by throwing psychic fire. I realize we're talking Holy Terra, home of the Scholastica Psykana, the Choir of the Empyrean Flame and multiples Alpha Pluses, so most of the normal rules are off, but there is no indication that the imperium has any ability to psychically attack ships at solar system ranges.

So, while it is certainly true that there is no canon source that anyone uses Psyker attacks at starship range, it is equally clear that Holy Terra is different. Hell, we don't even know if The Emperor might not weaponize the Beacon if He detected a powerful FTL ship closing in on Terra.

So yeah, I guess boiling a few brains is an adequate depiction of interstellar Psyker attack.

[Parra]

It's probably worth noting, there are Psykers who focus on controlling machines. But it's also worth noting that the more exotic and advanced a machine is, the harder it is to control. Eldar and Necron technology is already basically impossible to influence.

I see no reason why such abilities wouldnt be as effective on Culture Tech should the oppertunity arise.
Keep in mind that the Culture use AI (meaning not Mind and Drone) in pretty much everything. Toaster, shaving device, shower, pillows, windows, wristwatch, pens, homes, everything.

So while a Mind and Drone would be immune/fairly resistant, pretty much anything else would be up for grabs

[Tavar]

So, while it is certainly true that there is no canon source that anyone uses Psyker attacks at starship range, it is equally clear that Holy Terra is different. Hell, we don't even know if The Emperor might not weaponize the Beacon if He detected a powerful FTL ship closing in on Terra.

So yeah, I guess boiling a few brains is an adequate depiction of interstellar Psyker attack.

Just like they did against that Necron Frigate that approached Mars...oh wait.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Just like they did against that Necron Frigate that approached Mars...oh wait.

What's your source?

[Forum Explorer]

Just like they did against that Necron Frigate that approached Mars...oh wait.

Feel the wrath of the Retcrons! (Pretty sure that never happened now.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

What's your source?

3rd Edition Codex. Which means it likely never happened now, unless the Newcrons confirm it.

But then the notion that there's some legion of psychics on a hair trigger waiting to mind crush anything approaching the Sol system is a little silly too. Its pure speculation based on the idea that they maybe could do something like that. When the reality is most of the psykers on Terra are snacks for Big E and his flashlight or being inconsideration for it. Competent psykers go on to be Inquisitors or Marines or at least Sanctioned Psykers and are going to be sent off. The notion of mass groups of them working together to do something is something I've never heard of and violates the Imperium's ruling concept: incompetence.

If you've got evidence otherwise what's your source?

[Oracle_Hunter]

3rd Edition Codex. Which means it likely never happened now, unless the Newcrons confirm it.

But then the notion that there's some legion of psychics on a hair trigger waiting to mind crush anything approaching the Sol system is a little silly too. Its pure speculation based on the idea that they maybe could do something like that. When the reality is most of the psykers on Terra are snacks for Big E and his flashlight or being inconsideration for it. Competent psykers go on to be Inquisitors or Marines or at least Sanctioned Psykers and are going to be sent off. The notion of mass groups of them working together to do something is something I've never heard of and violates the Imperium's ruling concept: incompetence.

If you've got evidence otherwise what's your source?

Well, for one Holy Terra is ridiculously well fortified and AFAIK Sol's defenses haven't been tested by outside forces since the Heresy. Secondly, it hosts one of the greatest collection of Psykers in the Imperium with the Forbidden Fortress, the Scholastia Psykana, and as the final destination of the Blackships, not to mention the Grey Knights who hang out on Titan -- if anyone is going to have a Psyker Defense System, it'd be Holy Terra. And finally, there is The Emperor who guides all Imperial Psykers via the Emperor's Tarot which means that when He detects the inbound ship (which He will) every Psyker on Terra is going to know about it.

So yeah, it may not have canon confirmation but there are a lot of reasons to think that Terra would have some sort of Psyker defense system even if it is only incidental to having such a huge amount of Psykers in one place. Now, can it smack ships out of the aether? Probably not, but one should not simply be able to stroll into the Sol System without notice and response.

[GolemsVoice]

If they're anywhere, they're around Holy Terra. I certainly would trust the Imperium to do such a thing, along with reading the minds of every pilgrim on the vessels that ship them there.

[The Glyphstone]

3rd Edition Codex. Which means it likely never happened now, unless the Newcrons confirm it.

But then the notion that there's some legion of psychics on a hair trigger waiting to mind crush anything approaching the Sol system is a little silly too. Its pure speculation based on the idea that they maybe could do something like that. When the reality is most of the psykers on Terra are snacks for Big E and his flashlight or being inconsideration for it. Competent psykers go on to be Inquisitors or Marines or at least Sanctioned Psykers and are going to be sent off. The notion of mass groups of them working together to do something is something I've never heard of and violates the Imperium's ruling concept: incompetence.

If you've got evidence otherwise what's your source?

Your belief that the Imperium is solely founded on incompetence is still a bit tunnel-visioned. The Imperium is not incompetent. What the Imperium is is inefficient. Glaciers aren't small or weak, they're just slow, and the Imperium as a whole makes glaciers look fast. If the Imperium didn't have a protocol for dealing with FTL intrusions, it'll take centuries for them to devise one, but if they have one by now, it will be as devastatingly effective as they can devise.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well, for one Holy Terra is ridiculously well fortified and AFAIK Sol's defenses haven't been tested by outside forces since the Heresy. Secondly, it hosts one of the greatest collection of Psykers in the Imperium with the Forbidden Fortress, the Scholastia Psykana, and as the final destination of the Blackships, not to mention the Grey Knights who hang out on Titan -- if anyone is going to have a Psyker Defense System, it'd be Holy Terra. And finally, there is The Emperor who guides all Imperial Psykers via the Emperor's Tarot which means that when He detects the inbound ship (which He will) every Psyker on Terra is going to know about it.

So yeah, it may not have canon confirmation but there are a lot of reasons to think that Terra would have some sort of Psyker defense system even if it is only incidental to having such a huge amount of Psykers in one place. Now, can it smack ships out of the aether? Probably not, but one should not simply be able to stroll into the Sol System without notice and response.

Or alternately why on Terra (literally) would the Imperium trust enough Psykers by power or numbers to work together and practice enough to make this into an actual thing... what with how whole thing could very easily rip open a big hole to Warp and turn Terra into a Daemon world when endless Chaos came pouring out. Ending the Imperium overnight. Oops!

This is why speculation like this means comparatively little. It cuts both ways.

Seriously though the numbers mean little unless you can demonstrate that the typical psyker can act at astronomical real world distances. Or that there are an actual group that does and is tasked to do so. Otherwise its no different then well... you can have countless billions of the dudes in t-shirts and flashlights and they are not up to stopping a single ship in orbit.

And to really stop something in space from getting near Terra... you'd want a perfect detection range measured in AUs out to like the orbit of Jupiter minimum. Space being really frakking huge and all. If the Culture can evade normal detection then they can send something stealthy in to observe Terra.
Course they could still just blast everything there, probably without that much investment on their part.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Or alternately why on Terra (literally) would the Imperium trust enough Psykers by power or numbers to work together and practice enough to make this into an actual thing... what with how whole thing could very easily rip open a big hole to Warp and turn Terra into a Daemon world when endless Chaos came pouring out. Ending the Imperium overnight. Oops!

Mostly because

(1) These are all Sanctioned Psykers -- among the most elite non-combat ones in the Imperium
(2) The Emperor's Tarot is low-risk enough that Imperial Psykers throughout the Imperium use it regularly and yeah, the Emperor is gonna notice something like the Culture ship

As for proof that Psykers can operate at multiple AUs and are organized in a group -- Astropaths and Adeptus Astra Telepathica

[Soras Teva Gee]

Mostly because

(1) These are all Sanctioned Psykers -- among the most elite non-combat ones in the Imperium
(2) The Emperor's Tarot is low-risk enough that Imperial Psykers throughout the Imperium use it regularly and yeah, the Emperor is gonna notice something like the Culture ship

As for proof that Psykers can operate at multiple AUs and are organized in a group -- Astropaths and Adeptus Astra Telepathica

Right well in order:

1) Annnnnndddddd...?

2) That's quite debatable. The existence of the Eccliesarchy alone proves he's not all that aware, or if aware only has fractional ability to communicate his wishes. Otherwise the Imperium would have to shoot itself for Heresy. (Which would be hilarious)

At any rate aren't exactly going to get say the coordinates of a stealthed out ship spying on Terra. You get.... a Tarot reading maybe suggesting some new foe is close or watching or both. And come to think of it... would Big E consider the Culture a threat anyways?

3) You are missing the point, I'm not talking about an organization I'm talking about some grand high sorcery. Your suggesting that all the psykers pull a By Your Powers Combined super-awesome auspex net around Terra. That not something having more numbers allows you to just do, its a particular capacity you have to have to have. And have in advance to actually do a job like this.

Or alternately establish that it is relatively normal an expect for psykers to perform astronomical sized real world scans. And be able to say pick out particular differences from the billions (nay let's go with trillions) of ships that will be clogging the Sol system on an ordinary basis. Certainly it wouldn't be common (otherwise you'd not have Chaos cults among other things) since Astropaths evidently can't... but I do give some credit for Terra having superior access. IF and only if the capability exists.

[Forum Explorer]

Right well in order:

1) Annnnnndddddd...?

2) That's quite debatable. The existence of the Eccliesarchy alone proves he's not all that aware, or if aware only has fractional ability to communicate his wishes. Otherwise the Imperium would have to shoot itself for Heresy. (Which would be hilarious)

At any rate aren't exactly going to get say the coordinates of a stealthed out ship spying on Terra. You get.... a Tarot reading maybe suggesting some new foe is close or watching or both. And come to think of it... would Big E consider the Culture a threat anyways?

3) You are missing the point, I'm not talking about an organization I'm talking about some grand high sorcery. Your suggesting that all the psykers pull a By Your Powers Combined super-awesome auspex net around Terra. That not something having more numbers allows you to just do, its a particular capacity you have to have to have. And have in advance to actually do a job like this.

Or alternately establish that it is relatively normal an expect for psykers to perform astronomical sized real world scans. And be able to say pick out particular differences from the billions (nay let's go with trillions) of ships that will be clogging the Sol system on an ordinary basis. Certainly it wouldn't be common (otherwise you'd not have Chaos cults among other things) since Astropaths evidently can't... but I do give some credit for Terra having superior access. IF and only if the capability exists.

Well Ravenor can scan a planet from orbit in the books and he isn't even Alpha class.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well Ravenor can scan a planet from orbit in the books and he isn't even Alpha class.

Now that's more like it!

Inquisitor guy right?

Of course heroes are slippery to extrapolate from so needs context. How was it treated, what was he scanning for, and how good were his results? And did he do it again, or otherwise establish it as a reliable ability.

[Parra]

Scanning a planet from orbit is orders of magnitude away from scanning a ship several planets away.

I'm inclined to believe that the Psykers probably wouldn't instantly pin-point a Culture ship in the Sol System let alone respond to it in a timescale of seconds/minutes.
If, and I do mean IF, they could detect them, any response on the Imperiums part would be in the order of Hours (days) simply because that's the speed which the 40kverse operates at.

The more likely outcome would be the ship sneaking up in a high stealth mode Planet by Planet. Having a good look around (though not a complte in-depth scan, that takes a good bit of time). Resident Psykers would get an sense that something was going on. And things would then play out kinda similar to what was outlined previously.

[The Glyphstone]

That, and the threat presented would probably be proportionate to the reaction and warning time...a single Culture scout, or a remote drone, wouldn't set off anyone's psi-sense unless they were specifically on perimeter watch. A ship infiltrating to deploy hostile nanobots would set off the 'stuff that threatens Terra/Mars/etc.' detectors whose entire job is to sit around watching for that sort of thing, possibly pre-emptively. An entire culture battlefleet will be detected weeks ahead of time, though that just means there will be more Imperial ships to be slaughtered when the attack comes.

[Misery Esquire]

Inquisitor guy right?

Of course heroes are slippery to extrapolate from so needs context. How was it treated, what was he scanning for, and how good were his results? And did he do it again, or otherwise establish it as a reliable ability.

Yeah, Ravenor is an Inquisitor, and using a PsiBoost Lifesupport Antigravity wheel floatchair. (Because 40k tech is skitzo.)

He was just randomly reading people's minds, what they were thinking about, what they were doing, and wandering around looking at the gloomy city. And then got into a psyker battle and hid in a factory worker's mind and pretended to be him well enough that the other psyker couldn't recognize it.

Later in the book, he, and an enemy psyker, demonstrate the ability to steal control of other people and use thier memories (and bodies) to learn what to do to use the starship controls they were trained on/are experienced with. And while the enemy psyker did it in the same room, Ravenor did it from a decent few thousand kilometers away, although sending out his mind into the void between ships for the mind-control was described as... unpleasant. They were rather close (relatively) to a sun, though, which appearntly has some effect or other.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, Ravenor is an Inquisitor, and using a PsiBoost Lifesupport Antigravity wheel floatchair. (Because 40k tech is skitzo.)

He was just randomly reading people's minds, what they were thinking about, what they were doing, and wandering around looking at the gloomy city. And then got into a psyker battle and hid in a factory worker's mind and pretended to be him well enough that the other psyker couldn't recognize it.

Later in the book, he, and an enemy psyker, demonstrate the ability to steal control of other people and use thier memories (and bodies) to learn what to do to use the starship controls they were trained on/are experienced with. And while the enemy psyker did it in the same room, Ravenor did it from a decent few thousand kilometers away, although sending out his mind into the void between ships for the mind-control was described as... unpleasant. They were rather close (relatively) to a sun, though, which appearntly has some effect or other.

Ah right the Professor X rip. Remember hearing about him now. (And 40k tech is skitzo because they don't actually have technology.)

And that is respectable I'll give it that, but to be useful in a planetary defense it would need to be a lot more rapid/broad for the scale. Like scanning the entire planet in seconds from a lunar orbit distance. Mind by mind is fine for tracking with narrative convenience meaning you roll that 20 pretty soon, but not going to do much here.

A few guys like Ravenor would mean the Culture would run a very occasional risk that sooner or later will happen but isn't going to keep them out on the short term.

Also with the actual scale of space... the Culture would be able to hang out a much farther away (say at L4 or L5) and still pick up quite a lot. Not even Terra should be able afford a psyker Dysonesque enclosure of the Sol system with Ravenor's range.

Scanning a planet from orbit is orders of magnitude away from scanning a ship several planets away.

I'm inclined to believe that the Psykers probably wouldn't instantly pin-point a Culture ship in the Sol System let alone respond to it in a timescale of seconds/minutes.
If, and I do mean IF, they could detect them, any response on the Imperiums part would be in the order of Hours (days) simply because that's the speed which the 40kverse operates at.

Well for intel work detection can equal defeat, sure you can get away but that wasn't the point.

However the hours thing is interesting indeed. I seem to remember hearing that supposedly in like Battlefleet Gothic a turn represent hours or something right and that even coming to a new heading take a while since even the controls on an Imperium vessel are ponderous.

(I've always heard they use manual labor to do things like load cannons, ridiculous)

[hamishspence]

There's an essay by the creator of BFG that discusses it- there's an element of telescoping (a game turn at long distances takes more time than a game turn up close) but it defaults to around 15 min, up close.

http://www.inisfail.com/bfg/bfg-andy-scale-in-bfg.html

Rogue Trader uses 30 min- but similar principles apply (1 45 degree change of heading for cruisers, 1 90 degree change of heading for escorts, per game turn- before special orders are taken into account).

In the novels, the change of heading itself can take place fairly quickly- Execution Hour, for example.

[Misery Esquire]

(I've always heard they use manual labor to do things like load cannons, ridiculous)

This is usually spouted by detractors to the setting, the honest anwser is sort of like the autoloaders in tanks, today. The autoloader is convient, it does the job well and carefully, but someone cramming shells in by hand can do it at about the same rate.

So, while there are all sorts of Imperial ships that use autoloaders (or heck, nonprojectile weapons like laser/plasma batteries rather than macrocannon), there is always the sweat and toil slavery ones shown as the desperation of Imperial design.

-- Professor R was also able to tell the "mood" of the city, and how individual hab blocks fell in the Imperial Wage Class system by how depressed it was. Ravenor is also only a High Delta/Mid Gamma with chair, so there's still Beta/Alpha available as far stronger than him. (Alpha+ Psykers are not sanctioned for Imperial use without restrictors to bring them down. Aside from Teh Emps, of course.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

There's an essay by the creator of BFG that discusses it- there's an element of telescoping (a game turn at long distances takes more time than a game turn up close) but it defaults to around 15 min, up close.

http://www.inisfail.com/bfg/bfg-andy-scale-in-bfg.html

Rogue Trader uses 30 min- but similar principles apply (1 45 degree change of heading for cruisers, 1 90 degree change of heading for escorts, per game turn- before special orders are taken into account).

In the novels, the change of heading itself can take place fairly quickly- Execution Hour, for example.

This is usually spouted by detractors to the setting, the honest anwser is sort of like the autoloaders in tanks, today. The autoloader is convient, it does the job well and carefully, but someone cramming shells in by hand can do it at about the same rate.

So, while there are all sorts of Imperial ships that use autoloaders (or heck, nonprojectile weapons like laser/plasma batteries rather than macrocannon), there is always the sweat and toil slavery ones shown as the desperation of Imperial design.

-- Professor R was also able to tell the "mood" of the city, and how individual hab blocks fell in the Imperial Wage Class system by how depressed it was. Ravenor is also only a High Delta/Mid Gamma with chair, so there's still Beta/Alpha available as far stronger than him. (Alpha+ Psykers are not sanctioned for Imperial use without restrictors to bring them down. Aside from Teh Emps, of course.)

I bring this up because when you start talking minutes and so forth, while arguably quite appropriate for the scale of things and all.... it means that for all their supposed power the Imperium will tend to loose against settings that run well... faster.

I mean people may snark at Star Trek's point blank range, but phasers can fire pretty fast and the ships themselves can... well the Picard maneuver is flash-stepping with a starship, not that that's normal procedure or anything but says a lot about their ability to maneuver along with plenty of shots from the franchise of ships banking and turning in real time.

Really really really really not trying to start a Trek vs 40k thing here just that for the times I'm hearing 40k can start to sound like a the hard-shelled part of a tortoise and hare situation... only without the hare being lazy.

[hamishspence]

The Imperium manages to copy with exceptionally maneuverable enemies like the Eldar though.

That said, they might only qualify as exceptionally maneuverable by 40K standards.

[WitchSlayer]

On the machines and detection front, a couple of notes from the RPG

1. Machine wise there's a thing called a Discordant who can disable technology, from a few rounds or even permanently with a tough enough check. While they are not all THAT normal their existence should be brought up. Also the more complicated the technology it is the easier it is to disable (I.E. Baneblades are far easier to disable than, say, lasguns.)

2. On the detection front, normal psykers aside, there is also Navigators who can detect from anywhere between 5,000 km away all the way up to 600,000km away depending on their mastery, with the typical being around the middle. This also allows the Navigator to detect the makeup of the ship, asteroid, or crew coming in.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The Imperium manages to copy with exceptionally maneuverable enemies like the Eldar though.

That said, they might only qualify as exceptionally maneuverable by 40K standards.

Mostly it's because you don't need to do much "maneuvering" in space combat due to space being pretty... well, empty

IIRC, Battlefleet Gothic's Eldar Pirate Ships got some extra move from their solar sails to represent their enhanced maneuverability/speed.

[Forum Explorer]

psykers are weird to deal with though. They can act instantaneously across large distances (that's basically how Astropaths transfer information after all). As well searching a planet at all may be harder then just locating a ship in space if they are tracking the 'souls' of the target. Basically finding a pin in a void is easier then finding a pin in a smaller haystack. (That may not be true though, but I can't think of anything that contradicts it.)

Finally most 40K races have some defense against psykers that makes it hard for them to attack through ships and the like. In comparison hitting Culture minds would be easy since they don't have any defenses in place.

[Anima]

On the machines and detection front, a couple of notes from the RPG

2. On the detection front, normal psykers aside, there is also Navigators who can detect from anywhere between 5,000 km away all the way up to 600,000km away depending on their mastery, with the typical being around the middle. This also allows the Navigator to detect the makeup of the ship, asteroid, or crew coming in.

That may sound impressive, but it's just a maximum distance of not even twice the moon orbit. That's not nearly enough for any deep space detection. Either it's a scale failure or psykers do not play much of a role in deep space detection.