The Culture v's 40kverse

[The Glyphstone]

You know, it just strike me that my previous post can be summarized as follows:

If the Culture becomes even a little bit Grimdark, they win.

Though how much of a win is kinda the question - to butcher paraphrase Nietzche,

"He who fights Grimdark should see to it that he himself does not become Grimdark."

Which, in a way, fits very well with the ethos of the 40K setting - it's still a grimdark place, just at a higher tech level than it was, replacing one galaxy-wide all-encompassing empire with a bigger and badder one. The Culture will have crushed all of its material opponents, but Chaos will still be out there - weakened and likely contained, but always searching for a crack in the facade. And then there's the fan-theory that the Tyranids aren't simply an extragalactic locust swarm, but a swarm that's fleeing the exterminators...and the 'exterminators' might eventually show up, whatever they are.

[jseah]

I suppose the question then is really:

Can the Culture vs 40K 'verse in the given scenario manage to come out on top (aka. good end) and still remain the same recognizably free and utopian-like Culture that we know and love/hate?

Because if they go all ruthless like the IoM, I don't think its possible to question that they win. (if the IoM can survive Chaos, so can they if they adopt IoM practices) But what remains will look rather alot like a slightly less grimdark IoM.
How much less grimdark depends on the interpretation of Chaos. If its a "solvable" problem, then it is only a little grimdark. The Culture might be able to solve the problem if they are shown what to do (whether that is replicate Cadian pylons or just neuter the dreams of every single organic). It will be a mite oppressive until its done, and you don't have a say in refusing the solution (sorry, cultist, you're going to get "corrected"), but overall, the galaxy gets alot nicer.

If Chaos is not a "solvable" problem and the Culture has to be on permanent damage control, then its more grimdark:

Spoiler

Show

A fleet of super advanced drone ships sitting out there in the solar system, you can't see them, they can see you. All of you, all the time, even in your head. And if you look like Chaos or Orks or anyone else the Culture doesn't like, you just vanish into thin air or get "adjusted".

Other than that, life is just like it was in 40K, only less war and dying. War being one of the things the Culture doesn't like. Perhaps in a couple of centuries, the IoM economies might finally rebuild themselves into a civilian footing.

EDIT: in this one, the Culture are going to be more stand-offish and less overtly helpful to avoid contamination.

IMO, they can maybe do it while sticking to their principle; very luck based and the Eldar decision to contact or not appears to be a key event (the Eldar get to choose basically).
That sort of encounter looks balanced, as we RPG gamers like to say. =D

[Kitten Champion]

In my opinion having the Culture and Chaos in the same universe would be like having a cold fire or silent lightning. WH40K cannot stomach a benevolent utopia in the same way The Culture universe (as in, our reality) cannot contain magic. Had the Culture formed it would've done so in opposition to this Manichean Satanic force in its long, long history. Unless Chaos is specific to the Milky Way Galaxy, in which case The Culture shouldn't bother coming here in the first place.

Saying though "how would the culture deal with chaos" -- would presume it hadn't already.

[HamHam]

Even if Chaos is not something that can be defeated in the absolute, the Culture would not need to implement something as crude an inefficient as the Inquisition. From wikipedia:

Almost all Culture citizens are very sociable, of great intellectual capability and learning, and possess very well-balanced psyches. Their biological make-up and their growing up in an enlightened society make neuroses and lesser emotions like greed or (strong) jealousy practically unknown, and produce persons that, in any lesser society, appear very self-composed and charismatic. Character traits like strong shyness, while very rare, are not fully unknown, as shown in Excession. As described there and in Player of Games, a Culture citizen who becomes dysfunctional enough to pose a serious nuisance or threat to others would be offered (voluntary) psychological adjustment therapy and might potentially find himself under constant (non-voluntary) oversight by representatives of the local Mind. In extreme cases, as described in Use of Weapons and Surface Detail, dangerous individuals have been known to be assigned a "slap-drone", a robotic follower who ensures that the person in question doesn't continue to endanger the safety of others.

An individual falling to Chaos here or there would not be that hard to contain. And the cause of widespread corruption is usually some external factor, like an artifact or an entity, both of which can be dealt with by quarantine or other methods. Furthermore, it's possible that the Culture's hedonistic tendencies would make it an easy target for Slanesh, but I think one could also make the opposite case. Culture citizens are by and large content. Slanesh has nothing to other them that they cannot already get. And if new forms of mental conditioning conditioning would help, like with the Eldar, implementing them would be fairly easy. Or just copying the natural resistance that Orks or Nids seem to have.

[jseah]

Or just copying the natural resistance that Orks or Nids seem to have.

How does the Tau one work? IIRC, they were also less susceptible to Chaos?

[Tiki Snakes]

I just feel it's worth re-iterating, Chaos doesn't operate on a Faustian-Bargain level. It's not about them offering you stuff, it's about you acting/thinking/etc in such a way as brings their attention to you/makes you compatable and then they simply...give you presents. At least, as I understand it.

There are times when whispery chaos voices have actively offered stuff or talked people into doing things, but that's more about getting people who aren't already acting compatably, as it were, to do so.

Also, I have no idea how the Tau thing works.

[The Glyphstone]

How does the Tau one work? IIRC, they were also less susceptible to Chaos?

Orks and Tau were both tailored species - Orks explicitly, the Tau implicitly, and by different designers; their Chaos-resilience is just built in to their psychological makeup. The Orks are, plainly put, too stupid, and the Tau just have a deliberately muted warp presence...they have almost no psychic presence compared to humans or Eldar. Not so much being resistant as not registering bright enough on demonic 'senses' to bother with.

Tyranids are more-or-less Chaos-proof because they're mindless, and the collective psychic strength of the Hive Mind outweighs anything short of the actual Chaos Gods. That's not to say they are physically incorruptible, there's a canon depiction in the book Storm of Iron of a Hive Ship that got caught in a warp storm, cut off from the Hive Mind, and ended up infected by the Obliterator virus. It's used to haul Chaos Titans.

[jseah]

Orks and Tau were both tailored species - Orks explicitly, the Tau implicitly, and by different designers; their Chaos-resilience is just built in to their psychological makeup. <...>Not so much being resistant as not registering bright enough on demonic 'senses' to bother with.

Is there any details as to what part of the pychological makeup does this?

[The Glyphstone]

Is there any details as to what part of the pychological makeup does this?

Nope. It's just 'Because it works that way, now shut up and paint your plastic crack'. Maybe genetics, maybe Space Magic.

[jseah]

Nope. It's just 'Because it works that way, now shut up and paint your plastic crack'. Maybe genetics, maybe Space Magic.

But if its a psychological makeup thing, then surely it turns up in the fluff somewhere? Maybe they're more collectivist? Or have muted emotions or whatever?

Because this sort of thing is likely to be known by the inhabitants and with Eldar future sight, any source of resistance to Chaos becomes a potential solution. Assuming the Eldar decide to contact, which seems more likely than before (Craftworlds acting independently means any one of them deciding to contact will give the Culture access to Eldar knowledge)

[The Glyphstone]

But if its a psychological makeup thing, then surely it turns up in the fluff somewhere? Maybe they're more collectivist? Or have muted emotions or whatever?

Because this sort of thing is likely to be known by the inhabitants and with Eldar future sight, any source of resistance to Chaos becomes a potential solution. Assuming the Eldar decide to contact, which seems more likely than before (Craftworlds acting independently means any one of them deciding to contact will give the Culture access to Eldar knowledge)

No, it's literally just 'Tau have a very faint warp presence compared to humans, and they aren't tempted by or drawn to Chaos'. No explanation given - I should have said 'psychic makeup', not psychological.

[Water_Bear]

But if its a psychological makeup thing, then surely it turns up in the fluff somewhere? Maybe they're more collectivist? Or have muted emotions or whatever?

Because this sort of thing is likely to be known by the inhabitants and with Eldar future sight, any source of resistance to Chaos becomes a potential solution. Assuming the Eldar decide to contact, which seems more likely than before (Craftworlds acting independently means any one of them deciding to contact will give the Culture access to Eldar knowledge)

You are overestimating both the amount of thought Games Workshop puts into their fluff, and the usefulness of the Eldar's future seeing. For the former, just spend 15mins on 1d4chan to disabuse yourself of that notion. For the latter, remember that this is more of a "Madame Cleo" kind of future-sight rather than actually sending messages back in time, and that time itself is fluid in the Warp (and this extends to ships while in FTL and areas like the Eye of Terror).

On the specifics of why a species or individual is more or less psychic and more or less susceptible to Chaos is more metaphysical and philosophical than psychological. Remember, souls literally exist in 40K and thus there is no reason to assume personality is a function of genetics and environment, as opposed to being an issue of wherever souls come from.

[HamHam]

I just feel it's worth re-iterating, Chaos doesn't operate on a Faustian-Bargain level. It's not about them offering you stuff, it's about you acting/thinking/etc in such a way as brings their attention to you/makes you compatable and then they simply...give you presents. At least, as I understand it.

There are times when whispery chaos voices have actively offered stuff or talked people into doing things, but that's more about getting people who aren't already acting compatably, as it were, to do so.

Also, I have no idea how the Tau thing works.

Having wild parties isn't enough to make you a Slanesh cultist though, AFAIK. You have to be doing some really crazy stuff to actually get anything to happen, and that requires some kind of prompting.

[Fan]

Having wild parties isn't enough to make you a Slanesh cultist though, AFAIK. You have to be doing some really crazy stuff to actually get anything to happen, and that requires some kind of prompting.

Like taking pleasure drugs to augment your ability to feel, a practice that is actually done by slanneshi cultists?

[Oracle_Hunter]

No, it's literally just 'Tau have a very faint warp presence compared to humans, and they aren't tempted by or drawn to Chaos'. No explanation given - I should have said 'psychic makeup', not psychological.

Or, to put another way, the Tau have souls so tiny that Demons don't notice it. They never produce Psykers and are in a part of the Universe where "tiny souls" predominate (or do Kroot get Chaos-possessed? I have no idea).

The really important part is that the Orks were made by Gods while the Tau were Uplifted by the Eldar -- specifically Eldrad Ulthran tailored "Air Caste" Tau to have Mind Control Spores to unify the other Tau into a "good" society.

Also, IIRC, Orks don't suffer from widespread corruption because they have "tiny souls" as well but, unlike the Tau, they can hook up their souls in parallel to produce sufficient energy to make their tech work and fuel Weirdboyz. I think there have been instances of Orks becoming Chaos Tainted but due to "Ork Weirdness" they are instantly identified and brutally murdered by fellow Orks.

[MLai]

The really important part is that the Orks were made by Gods while the Tau were Uplifted by the Eldar -- specifically Eldrad Ulthran tailored "Air Caste" Tau to have Mind Control Spores to unify the other Tau into a "good" society.

Wait, what?
Is GW ruining their own universe again?

[Fan]

Or, to put another way, the Tau have souls so tiny that Demons don't notice it. They never produce Psykers and are in a part of the Universe where "tiny souls" predominate (or do Kroot get Chaos-possessed? I have no idea).

The really important part is that the Orks were made by Gods while the Tau were Uplifted by the Eldar -- specifically Eldrad Ulthran tailored "Air Caste" Tau to have Mind Control Spores to unify the other Tau into a "good" society.

Also, IIRC, Orks don't suffer from widespread corruption because they have "tiny souls" as well but, unlike the Tau, they can hook up their souls in parallel to produce sufficient energy to make their tech work and fuel Weirdboyz. I think there have been instances of Orks becoming Chaos Tainted but due to "Ork Weirdness" they are instantly identified and brutally murdered by fellow Orks.

Weird Boyz exist, and then there are Pain Boyz, and Mad Dokz that all fall to Chaos. Pretty sure there are even Chaos dedicated WAAAAAGHS! somewhere out there.

[Forrestfire]

Weird Boyz exist, and then there are Pain Boyz, and Mad Dokz that all fall to Chaos. Pretty sure there are even Chaos dedicated WAAAAAGHS! somewhere out there.

Painboyz and Mad Dokz are just orks with genetic coding telling them how to practice the orky version of medicine. And Weirdboyz channel the waaagh field, not the chaos gods.

[The Glyphstone]

Weird Boyz exist, and then there are Pain Boyz, and Mad Dokz that all fall to Chaos. Pretty sure there are even Chaos dedicated WAAAAAGHS! somewhere out there.

According to the RPG,

Orks in service to the Chaos Gods, or even succumbing to the corrupting influence of the Warp, are so rare as to be essentially
unheard of. Simply put, Orks aren’t easily tempted to Chaos and they’re far more resistant to the warping influence of Chaos
than humans, for reasons that nobody has been able to accurately define.

[Water_Bear]

Having wild parties isn't enough to make you a Slanesh cultist though, AFAIK. You have to be doing some really crazy stuff to actually get anything to happen, and that requires some kind of prompting.

Is that true though?

Look at the Imperium of Man and the Eldar Craftworlds; not really a whole lot of parties going on there that don't have Chaos Cultists/Dark Eldar hiding behind the scenes. That's part of the nature of GrimDark; having fun is itself a gateway drug into having your soul hollowed out by perverted space demons to use as a prophylactic.

This is why people who say "If the IoM can hold back Chaos, obviously the Culture could" bug me. It's not about firepower or intelligence; the Imperium survives soley because it is floating on a psychic raft of the fanatical wills of trillions, of the deaths of hundreds of billions of marytrs built up over forty thousand years, and the daily sacrifice of 10,000 Psykers whose very souls are incinerated to keep it going. That's not something you can match with a clever scheme or a new bit of super-technology.

[Fan]

Painboyz and Mad Dokz are just orks with genetic coding telling them how to practice the orky version of medicine. And Weirdboyz channel the waaagh field, not the chaos gods.

The entry I read on them says that they often fall to Chaos, and it even has a little thing about how all the other orks usually just ignore them.

It's kinda funny.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wait, what?
Is GW ruining their own universe again?

No, he just got it wrong. It's the Ethereal Caste, not the Air. And the Tau as Eldar Plot theory isn't outright stated anywhere; it's just a popular (and frankly likely) fan explanation of how the Tau achieved technological superiority so quickly.

[Forum Explorer]

Is that true though?

Look at the Imperium of Man and the Eldar Craftworlds; not really a whole lot of parties going on there that don't have Chaos Cultists/Dark Eldar hiding behind the scenes. That's part of the nature of GrimDark; having fun is itself a gateway drug into having your soul hollowed out by perverted space demons to use as a prophylactic.

Complete nit-pick on my part but Dark Eldar do not worship chaos and do not infiltrate Craftworlds in that manner. Dark Eldar save their souls by constantly feeding themselves souls to achieve a warped immortality and thus avoiding Slaanash via forcing other people to suffer instead. They also tend to be descended from Eldar who lived entirely within the Webway pre-Fall.

[Urpriest]

No, he just got it wrong. It's the Ethereal Caste, not the Air. And the Tau as Eldar Plot theory isn't outright stated anywhere; it's just a popular (and frankly likely) fan explanation of how the Tau achieved technological superiority so quickly.

So it is just a fan theory?

Because I've always suspected that it isn't that the Tau developed fast, but that the rest of the 40kverse developed slow. The 40kverse isn't a post-singularity civilization despite being set in the year 40k, when it should have happened long ago. Even with all the strictures in place by the IoM, it just isn't plausible for there to have been so little technological development. My opinion is that warp presence slows down the darwinian algorithm itself, so that evolution and technology are both stilled by sufficiently warp-attuned populations. As such Tau, with their low warp presence, are the only race that is able to actually evolve like species and civilizations in the real world do.

Edit: This also implies that the Culture's citizens would have naturally low warp presence as well, so it's not the direction the fanfic is going for.

[GolemsVoice]

No, he just got it wrong. It's the Ethereal Caste, not the Air. And the Tau as Eldar Plot theory isn't outright stated anywhere; it's just a popular (and frankly likely) fan explanation of how the Tau achieved technological superiority so quickly.

Wasn't it stated in the (now unavailable) book Xenology?

[Oracle_Hunter]

The 40kverse isn't a post-singularity civilization despite being set in the year 40k, when it should have happened long ago.

It almost did during the Dark Age of Technology.

Then there was a war where the Men of Iron revolted and were somehow put down by Humanity. After that, AI meant Abominable Intelligence throughout the Imperium thus stopping The Singularity cold.

The Eldar, apparently, never bothered with AI since they could just stick dead Eldar into things if they wanted it to be intelligent. Not that they would, of course, since pre-Fall the souls of the Eldar just frolicked in the Warp and had a grand old time.

Orks don't have technology per se as much as they know how to make some basic devices and then psychically enhance the crap out of it.

So yeah, that's why there's no Singularity in the 41st Millennium. The Tau are getting there having gone from muskets to AI Drones and mecha in roughly 6000 years which does seem slow but perhaps Moore's Law doesn't apply in the grim dark future

[Tiki Snakes]

So it is just a fan theory?

Because I've always suspected that it isn't that the Tau developed fast, but that the rest of the 40kverse developed slow. The 40kverse isn't a post-singularity civilization despite being set in the year 40k, when it should have happened long ago. Even with all the strictures in place by the IoM, it just isn't plausible for there to have been so little technological development. My opinion is that warp presence slows down the darwinian algorithm itself, so that evolution and technology are both stilled by sufficiently warp-attuned populations. As such Tau, with their low warp presence, are the only race that is able to actually evolve like species and civilizations in the real world do.

Edit: This also implies that the Culture's citizens would have naturally low warp presence as well, so it's not the direction the fanfic is going for.

It's one of those fan theories that there is enough evidence for that it is probably only not canon because it's much more amusing for GW and in a way setting appropriate if they act all coy about it rather than confirm it. Like how something between one and several marine chapters have some very convincing evidence hidden around the lore to suggest they are fruity things like the loyalist remains of traitor chaptors and so on.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's one of those fan theories that there is enough evidence for that it is probably only not canon because it's much more amusing for GW and in a way setting appropriate if they act all coy about it rather than confirm it. Like how something between one and several marine chapters have some very convincing evidence hidden around the lore to suggest they are fruity things like the loyalist remains of traitor chaptors and so on.

I'm frankly not at all up on the details of this but my immediate issue with the Tau being an Eldar plot is their tech really doesn't share that much from my impressions of it. Seriously the Eldar barely make use of plasma among other things. Nevermind what end does uplifting a low-Warp race actually do for the Eldar? Sound rather half-baked

There really no reason the Tau can't have just plain developed their tech the normal way. That's how normal societies operate, just the Imperium and the Eldar are both basically still paying the price for birthing Slannesh really. The Imperium will keep paying for it because they have no way back unless the Mechanicus changes its ways, and not sure about the Eldar so I'll just go with the whole extended life spans means even more extended recovery.

(And they are probably the least numerous faction right?)

[Tiki Snakes]

I don't believe the theory actually claims the Tau were given their technology as much as they were created/altered/started on that path by the eldar, instead. Something like that, at any rate.

[tyckspoon]

Nevermind what end does uplifting a low-Warp race actually do for the Eldar? Sound rather half-baked

..the Eldar are in decline and hiding because their own high Warp-sensitivity birthed a new Chaos God who will literally eat their souls if they are incautious. They can't trust Humanity to be of any use, because Humans are also vulnerable to the lures of Chaos. You're asking why the *Eldar* would find it useful to create a race of mostly-sensible Warp-dead warriors?