Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

[ben-zayb]

Alright, can I get a preliminary look at the class features? I like how it looks, but I'm not sure if it's overpowered.

Just a question. What are the sanity that you are curing (and from what rule system)? I can't seem to find a 3.5 rule for that...

As for the class, it doesn't seem to be overpowered in anyway. I'm also of the belief that Zone of Truth's design is faulty as it is anyway, so to further nerf it may be unneeded.

EDIT: Looking back, my class seems to be more of psychic surgeon than a psychotherapist with the lobotomy and stuff. Or not. Anyone can suggest of a more proper term? As for the main class features (still to add a few minor ones), does it seem too confusing (pun intended)?

[malonkey1]

Just a question. What are the sanity that you are curing (and from what rule system)? I can't seem to find a 3.5 rule for that...

Voila, sanity.

I don't feel that I nerfed Zone of Truth, so much as took it differently.

[Xhosant]

Renamed to Otherborn, and all instances of Eldritch Conduit and Conduit (and in on case, Soul Conduit ) should have been replaced. If anyone notices some vestige of the old naming, feel free to mention it.

[Temotei]

Hey, guys. The prestige class contest this time is actually pretty relevant to this contest, so here is a link.

[sirpercival]

Okely dokely do, the Panphobic's mechanics are complete, and I have a good complement of Phobias to choose from (though I'm sure I'll add more as time passes).

So... next step is the fluff. Thoughts on what I have already?

[FireInTheSky]

So... next step is the fluff. Thoughts on what I have already?

Looks pretty sweet so far!

A couple ideas/questions:
-Claustrophobia Tier 5: Freedom
-Necrophobia Tier 4/5: Turn undead as a Cleric of X level
-Ophidiophobia Tier 1: For the natural bite attack, if you boost the tier (dealing additional d4's, are the extra d4's base damage or bonus damage (i.e. do they multiply on a crit)?
-Trypophobia Tier 1: see Ophidiophobia


Keep up the good work!

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay I think I have most of the Black Blood Vanguard up.

Incantations and their rules are here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=14492054. I will make it easier to find in the main base class challenge post but I still need to finish the Terror School so I will wait till then.

Any peaches will be greatly appreciated as I think I made the class a bit too strong ATM.

[Xhosant]

I have added the sanity system in a "sidebar" (spoiler) under the class' table. I would be grateful to anyone that can tell me if it's clear (or where/how I should clarify), and of course PEACHes are welcome.

Basically, I'm roughly going for first insanity=unpredictable unconsciousness, and it goes downhill from there.

[Silva Stormrage]

Well I am going to note that the sanity system has a bit of a problem with low level combat, especially with commoners. Tell me if I am doing the calculations wrong.

Bob is a commoner who has 10 in all ability scores:
Maximum Sanity: (4.5 * 1 +0)/2 = 2 (Round Down)

Life Unit: 2/2 = 1

So therefore any damage inflicted upon Bob will deal 4 sanity damage and cause him to permanently snap. Tell me if I am doing the calculations wrong.


Also the system has a difficult time when a subject heals hit point damage but the sanity damage remains. I think casting a spell such as a heal, restoration, or similar spell should remove or reduce sanity damage.

[Temotei]

Well I am going to note that the sanity system has a bit of a problem with low level combat, especially with commoners. Tell me if I am doing the calculations wrong.

Bob is a commoner who has 10 in all ability scores:
Maximum Sanity: (4.5 * 1 +0)/2 = 2 (Round Down)

Life Unit: 2/2 = 1

So therefore any damage inflicted upon Bob will deal 4 sanity damage and cause him to permanently snap. Tell me if I am doing the calculations wrong.


Also the system has a difficult time when a subject heals hit point damage but the sanity damage remains. I think casting a spell such as a heal, restoration, or similar spell should remove or reduce sanity damage.

I think it might not be the modifiers that are added on. Rather, it's Wisdom and Charisma scores.

So Bob would have 1/2(4.5*1+10+10) = 12 (rounded down)

Life unit = 2/12 = 1/6.

Uh. Xhosant probably means to divide the maximum sanity by maximum hit points, not the other way around. I'll do that.

Life unit = 12/2 = 6.

What I don't get is the part before the equation. It says to take your hit die, find the average, and divide max hp by that, then the equation is completely different.

[Xhosant]

Bob is a commoner who has 10 in all ability scores:
Maximum Sanity: (4.5 * 1 +0)/2 = 2 (Round Down)

You shouldn't be dividing the 4.5 (or average hit dice). Also, the stat mods are added, not multiplied. So it would be 4.5 +(1+0)/2= 5, and that multiplied by HD (1).

Life Unit: 1d4 hp, divided by "half d4" or 2. We're looking at 1 or 2.

So therefore any damage inflicted upon Bob will deal 4 sanity damage and cause him to permanently snap. Tell me if I am doing the calculations wrong.

First of all, he'd only snap for a little while (4 hours, if he gets to calm down and take no more sanity damage).
Second, you forgot an important note: sanity damage from Hp loss does not trigger snapping, regardless of damage taken. You could go down to -10 sanity and still be fine. But if he took any sanity damage from a properly disturbing source after that, he'd immediately snap. He's been brought to the edge (after all, he IS almost dead), but it takes something properly maddening to push him over.

Also the system has a difficult time when a subject heals hit point damage but the sanity damage remains. I think casting a spell such as a heal, restoration, or similar spell should remove or reduce sanity damage.

It was intentional, the mental strain of nearing death would persist until you can calm down. I could give some of the heals sanity healing, or make a sanity heal too.

Anyway, case in point. If it can be that confusing, it needs rewriting :/

[Xhosant]

What I don't get is the part before the equation. It says to take your hit die, find the average, and divide max hp by that, then the equation is completely different.

The part before the equation calculates the "life unit", or a given chunk of HP that you have roughly as many as your hit dice, constitution aside.

Maximum sanity is calculated irrelevantly, i'll edit it to make it clearer. Any tips on how to make it make sense to other people too? :P

[Pyromancer999]

Question: Would a base class that was also a monster class that went for 20 levels be acceptable?

[ben-zayb]

Hmm.. so I think most of the base work for my entry is already done.

I was hoping someone would try to take a look and see if at least the base class features are clear enough or are just plain confusing. PEACHES would be very much welcomed and appreciated!

I'm not quite so satisfied with the Chirurgery options, though, so I might add a few more in the following days to give it some versatility. My goal is for a solid T3, but I have a feeling that someone could (easily) come up with a way to make it too overpowered in certain situations.

[Xhosant]

Question: Would a base class that was also a monster class that went for 20 levels be acceptable?

Although I cannot be sure, i would guess it to be ok.

I have considerably simplified the sanity system, at least in regards to understanding. It will require an extra die on attack rolls when sanity damage has been inflicted (and a variable die at that, depending on target's atributes), but other than that it's just a "second hitpoint set, save-or-take-damage". Can someone try to read through it and say what they get?

Also finished part 2 of abilities and started part 3 (the "misc" categore, plus the illusion list), so class is almost done.

[Temotei]

Question: Would a base class that was also a monster class that went for 20 levels be acceptable?

I'm going to say yes to this. Let's see how this pans out, yes?

[sirpercival]

In-depth PEACH exchange with the Panphobic, anyone?

[Xhosant]

I've been rather disappointed by how the class turns out, so I will remove my submission.

I guess you could say that I can't properly describe it

[Quellian-dyrae]

In-depth PEACH exchange with the Panphobic, anyone?

Sure, let's do this.

Mild panic (Ex): Each individual phobia that a Panphobic has gives her particular abilities as she attempts to overcome and draw strength from the many, many things that frighten her.

At first level, a Panphobic acquires three phobias from her class list; she acquires an additional phobia at 2nd level, and every even level thereafter (as shown on the table above). Each of phobia the Panphobic acquires has two abilities: a base ability (tier 0) which grants some benefit at all times, and a higher-tier ability which must be activated by spending Dread.

A Panphobic begins each encounter with all of her phobias at the tier 0, and with 0 Dread. As a free action on her turn, but no more often than once per round, she may choose to become shaken for one round to accrue 1 point of Dread. She gains no benefit from other creatures' abilities or effects which cause her to be shaken, only her own will, as she exposes her mind to the the things which frighten her the most.

Then, as a swift action, the Panphobic may spend any amount of Dread she has accrued to increase the tier of one or more phobias that she knows. At 1st level, she may not increase any phobia beyond tier 1. Once increased, the tier of each phobia remains so for the duration of the encounter, unless otherwise specified in the phobia description.

At the end of the encounter, all phobias reduce back to tier 0, and any Dread remaining evaporates.

I like the resource mechanic. Kinda have a soft spot for literal per encounter resources (that is, you actually need an encounter to refresh them) that make sense.

An issue I have, fluff-wise, is how enemy fear effects don't accrue Dread, and the phobias themselves being present have no impact. I'd maybe suggest something that causes fear effects to be potentially more severe (say, every five points you fail the Will save by, the fear increases one step, or something) but also produce Dread corresponding to the level of fear they inflict.

Likewise, perhaps something where the phobia actually being present automatically sets it to a certain Tier (my thought would be 1 + the Continuous Anxiety bonus), but requires a periodic Will save to avoid a fear result, scaling either by the Tier or by how much the save fails by. It just seems odd to me that a Panphobic with Arachnophobia could be fighting giant spiders without effect but be working itself up into a state of near-panic over heights, or something.

Paranoia (Ex): A Panphobic feeds off of fear; it's her bread and butter. A Panphobic cannot ever become immune to fear effects, and receives no benefit from morale bonuses to saves vs fear (such as from a Paladin's Aura of Courage).

Makes sense.

Simple fright (Ex): Such a student of fear is a Panphobic that she understands quite easily how to inflict such upon others. Whenever she confirms a critical hit against an opponent in combat, the Panphobic may spend 1 Dread as a free action to force that opponent to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier) or become shaken for 1 minute. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

I was wondering if this might be problematic at the higher levels where you could be dual-wielding 15-20 threat range weapons for a pretty solid chance of getting two crits fairly quickly, but I think given the Will save you should be fine. Gods know there are more efficient ways to remove a foe from combat at that level.

Sneak attack (Ex): This ability, as the rogue ability, is gained at 2nd level, with increases gained at the levels indicated in the table. Panphobics prefer to strike from the shadows... it's safer that way.

Maybe at some point, an ability to sneak attack targets who are shaken, frightened, panicked, or cowering in addition to the normal options would make sense?

Phobos animae (Ex): Sometimes fear can take on a life of its own, crawling down the narrow synapses to strike at the primal terror that a Panphobic has made her own. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the Panphobic successfully saves against a (Su) or (Ex) fear effect created by another creature, she accrues 1 Dread.

I do like this, makes it so even if the Panphobic resists a fear effect, it still scares them a little...just in a beneficial way.

Run and Hide (Ex): Being able to escape from one's enemies, real or imagined, is an essential skill to learn. Whenever a Panphobic of 4th level or higher moves at least twice her speed in a single round, she automatically makes a Hide check as a free action (even if she is observed, or has no cover or concealment), with no penalty for the movement. If she had moved due to the Frightened or Panicked condition, once she makes the Hide check, she is no longer required to keep moving until or unless the enemy which inflicted the condition succeeds on the Spot check to observe her.

I like the premise, although this one feels a bit weird, especially as an Exceptional ability. They basically move really fast and become near-invisible. I think I'd hold off on the no cover and concealment for a later, Supernatural ability, and have this one let them hide even while observed if they move twice their speed, and maybe just flat-out ignore all Hide and Move Silently penalties for speed of movement.

Contagious paranoia (Ex): Upon reaching 6th level, a Panphobic's constant state of distress can rub off on her enemies. Any enemy with 30 feet of her loses any immunity to fear that it had (though not immunity to mind-affecting effects, if any) for as long as it remains in the area, instead receiving a +5 bonus to saves vs fear effects.

Cool cool.

Compound fright (Ex): By 7th level, the raw, acrid fear that runs through a Panphobic's veins can spur her to heights she never knew were possible. As a standard action at any time, she may spend 2 Dread so that she may take 20 on the next skill check that she makes in the encounter, even if circumstances (or the skill description itself) would prevent it. Taking 20 in this manner takes no extra time -- instead, she simply functions as if she rolled a 20 on the attempt.

This might have been problematic, but the in-encounter resource system makes it work, I think.

Continuous anxiety (Ex): A Panphobic's standard level of fear is much higher than other people's, and (like everything else) such heightened emotion grants her abilities beyond that of the unsuspecting public. At 8th level, the Panphobic may spend 8 hours meditating on a particular thing which frightens her, and suffers the penalties of being shaken for the duration of this time. At the end, she picks a single phobia from among those she has acquired; this phobia is tier 1 at all times. (If some effect changes the tier of that phobia for any reason, it returns to the appropriate tier automatically at the end of the encounter.) She may choose a different phobia whenever she spends 8 hours in meditation.

Lets you use some of your abilities outside of combat, which is nice. Sadly, some of the really good out of combat ones (divination immunity, forbiddance, teleport, etc) are beyond what Continuous Anxiety will ever give you, but whatever.

Disappearance (Su): A Panphobic hones her stealth almost by accident -- hiding from the horrible things which terrify you is often the best, or only, idea. At 9th level, her hiding ability reaches a new level of subtlety and strength. Whenever a creature fails a Spot check against the Panphobic's Hide check, that creature must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier) or forget that the Panphobic is there.

This is cool. Would also be a good place to put the "no need cover/concealment" ability from Run and Hide, if you go with that suggestion.

Complex fright (Ex): When a Panphobic reaches 13th level, she revels in fear, worships it like a goddess in the night. As an immediate action, the Panphobic may spend 3 points of Dread that she has accrued to roll twice on a saving throw and take the better result.

Cool cool.

Improved phobos animae (Ex): Beginning at 16th level, the fear that other creatures bring to battle have very little effect on a Panphobic -- her own neuroses and psychoses are far more compelling. Whenever the Panphobic successfully saves against a (Su) or (Ex) fear effect created by another creature, she gains 2d6 Dread; in addition, even on a failed save, she suffers no ill effects from the fear effect.

Hrm...I wonder if rather than suffering no ill effects on a failed save, let the Panphobic choose what level of fear to suffer. Less conflict with the previous "unable to gain fear immunity".

Improved disappearance (Ex): When the Panphobic achieves 18th level, she is very good at being unobtrusive. She is considered to be Hiding at all times, even when observed or when she does not have cover or concealment. The Panphobic may activate or deactivate this effect as a free action.

Nice.

Crippling fright (Su): Upon reaching 18th level, a Panphobic has learned to transfer some of the soul-wrenching terror that she feels every waking moment to her enemies. With a melee touch attack as a standard action, she may transfer any amount of Dread up to her Charisma modifier to an enemy. That enemy suffers a -1 to all attack and damage rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and AC for each point of Dread they have, and a -1 to all saves for every 2 points of Dread. The subject automatically removes 1 point of Dread as a free action each round on their turn.

I like it. No save keeps it relevant at this level, the cost keeps it from being too powerful.

The Phobias generally look fine I think (although a plain description of what they mean would be helpful ). The Summon of Monophobia seems shaky; Summon Monster doesn't scale all that well at its normal rate, let alone one spell level per five class levels. And it's using a Full Round action and competing with the really good (since you're a Sneak Attacker) +2/tier bonus on flank attacks.

Overall:

I think the class looks good. I was a bit worried that it had too many niche abilities at the lower levels, but there are enough generally useful ones (flank bonus, ranged attack bonus, one-round invisibility, and Xenophobia's awesome aura) that they should be able to contribute. Once Sneak Attack, the stealth options, and Tier 2 Phobias kick in around level 5, the class should be perfectly able to contribute.

[Xhosant]

I may hop back in with a new idea that dawned on me, but it's unlikely i'll post it until it's ready. Suffice to say, it takes the phrase "seed of insanity" literally, relying on "planting" various negative emotions and disorders into enemies (and occasionally themselves), 'reaping" them by manifesting them as actual flowers, and using these flowers to plant the effect into a new victim.

Due to the high amount of bonuses and penalties, however, and the shortage of testing time, I'd like to ask a favor I'd like a "reference" (a table, formula, or the such) for save DC and roll bonuses/penalties by level. No need for full level table, just a rough guideline, every 3 levels or something.

DCs should be average, penalties are readily accessible (applied by standard action, not limited/day etc.)

[Temotei]

. . ."reference" (a table, formula, or the such) for save DC and roll bonuses/penalties by level. No need for full level table, just a rough guideline, every 3 levels or something.

Save DCs are easy.

{table=head]Hit Dice/Level|Base DC
1|10
2|11
3|11
4|12
5|12
6|13
7|13
8|14
9|14
10|15
11|15
12|16
13|16
14|17
15|17
16|18
17|18
18|19
19|19
20|20[/table]

Add the key ability modifier to the base DC for total save DC. The only exception in a base class I've seen is in Derjuin's zodiac, in which he used 11 instead of 10 as the base.

Bonuses and penalties by level are much harder, as their value changes based on type, what they're applied to, how many targets are affected, how often they can be applied, and duration. Therefore, I won't make a table for it. Sorry.

[Xhosant]

Thanks for the DCs.

Bonuses and penalties by level are much harder, as their value changes based on type, what they're applied to, how many targets are affected, how often they can be applied, and duration. Therefore, I won't make a table for it. Sorry.

To narrow it down: penalties are mostly Morale, occasionally insight, never untyped. They affect 1 or 2 skill checks, AC, attack rolls or initiative rolls and the amount of penalties per enemy is severely limited by level (only one of the above each, and they don't stack). They can be applied at will with a basic attack to a single target and last a few hours (so the entire encounter).

I came upon Divine Favor, which gives a bonus of +1 per 3 levels. How is it, power-wise, to balance around?

[Temotei]

I came upon Divine Favor, which gives a bonus of +1 per 3 levels. How is it, power-wise, to balance around?

It's a luck bonus, so super rare type. It also scales really well for a 1st-level spell.

To illustrate, at early levels, magic weapon beats it out mainly because of duration, but later, divine favor scales too hard for it to keep up.

Strong, but not overpowered. Decent balance point.

How does the initiative penalty work? Does it alter the enemy's place in the initiative order?

[sirpercival]

Sure, let's do this.

Awesomeness!! Thank you so much! I made some changes; how does it look now?

I've been given the green light to play this class from level 1 in a PbP over on mmx, so we'll see how it goes. Whee!

I'll get to the Seeker as soon as I can.

[BlasphemousSlug]

Sorry, I'm still pretty new to this and I forgot to snag a second post for my "new rules" section.

Would it be possible for me to post it and have it moved to be after my original post? If not, is there another way to fix this?

Edit: I'm talking about on the contest thread

Also I just added all the fluff to my entry and ask that you all PEACH away if you have any free time

[sirpercival]

Sorry, I'm still pretty new to this and I forgot to snag a second post for my "new rules" section.

Would it be possible for me to post it and have it moved to be after my original post? If not, is there another way to fix this?

Edit: I'm talking about on the contest thread

Also I just added all the fluff to my entry and ask that you all PEACH away if you have any free time

Delete your original entry post (saving the contents first) and then repost at the end with a reserve after.

[Xhosant]

It's a luck bonus, so super rare type.

I meant numerically. If my penalties are 1/3 my level, is that balanced?

How does the initiative penalty work? Does it alter the enemy's place in the initiative order?

I was thinking that subsequent initiative rolls are penalized, so it wouldn't have much use in the current fight. But I could consider forcing him to delay under circumstances too.

[Temotei]

I meant numerically. If my penalties are 1/3 my level, is that balanced?

Most likely.

I was thinking that subsequent initiative rolls are penalized, so it wouldn't have much use in the current fight.

Fair enough. In that case, you'd probably want a way to apply this one before a fight somehow.

[Xhosant]

The class will be at an advantage in more diplomatic campaigns or generally when they can slowly weaken the enemy beforehand. The debuffs will be applicable through non-threatening touch attacks as well, letting them weaken enemies pre-battle.

The ideal situation for them is to spend a month or so near the target, plant their seeds and come back a year or so later when the seeds have "grown" and weakened the enemy, to proceed for a Massive Damage-scale attack Unlikely parameters, but that's the ideal scenario.

[Temotei]

The class will be at an advantage in more diplomatic campaigns or generally when they can slowly weaken the enemy beforehand. The debuffs will be applicable through non-threatening touch attacks as well, letting them weaken enemies pre-battle.

The ideal situation for them is to spend a month or so near the target, plant their seeds and come back a year or so later when the seeds have "grown" and weakened the enemy, to proceed for a Massive Damage-scale attack Unlikely parameters, but that's the ideal scenario.

That's fair. We need more of those.