Ponythread LV:55 Ponythread learns Agility!

[Anarion]

Except, 'Radioactive Trefoil' sign was drawn in military labs, adapted from past military warning signs, and initially used only in bomb laboratories.

So, yeah, only has about as much in common with bomb as propellers with airplanes

Not to mention small issue of colossal initial investment needed to get first refined isotopes and nuclear piles used to refine radiation theories, making initial nuclear research only viable for big entities (read - military) and nuclear bomb being easier and faster to make than almost all other nuclear applications...

My nuclear fission spell was a success! Spike, take a letter to the princess, this discovery will revolutionize Equestria. Or, uh, well, it will revolutionize it for earth ponies when there aren't any unicorns around.

[TheAmishPirate]

Except, 'Radioactive Trefoil' sign was drawn in military labs, adapted from past military warning signs, and initially used only in bomb laboratories.

So, yeah, only has about as much in common with bomb as propellers with airplanes

That may be how we got the symbol, but it doesn't mean squat on how ponies got it. It's entirely reasonable that, being a far less aggressive race with access to inherent magic, their development of nuclear technology was vastly different than ours.

[Tvtyrant]

That may be how we got the symbol, but it doesn't mean squat on how ponies got it. It's entirely reasonable that, being a far less aggressive race with access to inherent magic, their development of nuclear technology was vastly different than ours.

Or it could be pseudo-technology. You don't need fancy equipment when there is a unicorn to do it all with magic. It might even be possible for unicorns to enrich uranium magically, and make heavy water by magically siphoning out the lighter isotopes.

[Siosilvar]

So, yeah, only has about as much in common with bomb as propellers with airplanes

The analogy fits, yes. Propeller planes... ships, boats, hats, submarines, helicopters, windmills, turbines, and more notwithstanding. Okay, some of the last few are a bit of a stretch, at least as far as technical names go.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Reviewers, Quick!

My story for the EqD Nightmare Night contest is done, and needs a quick review from anyone who cares to give it a quick read. I have to send it to EqD in less than 20 hours, and I need to submit it for approval from FiMFiction very soon, so I'd love some feedback, anything at all, no matter how small, before that.

It's fairly short (3000 words) and doesn't contain any blood or much of that nature. It should be readable by anyone who doesn't mind a slightly spooky story of corruption and possible ghostly possession.

Squeak! (I think the link should work, even though it's not published yet)

Nice. An interesting little story. Just two errors I spotted, both early on:

Spoiler

Show

“I didn't mean to frightened you,”

Lose the "ed".

“Most ponies call me Mouse,”

Full stop (period), not comma.

And just one little nagging promblem

Spoiler

Show

Where exactly did the name Trixie come from? Everything else seemed to be foreshadowed, but where did the sudden name change come from?

But altogether, it was a good read.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That may be how we got the symbol, but it doesn't mean squat on how ponies got it. It's entirely reasonable that, being a far less aggressive race with access to inherent magic, their development of nuclear technology was vastly different than ours.

And at the meta-level would the staff ponies know or care about such things.

[Deadly]

Nice. An interesting little story. Just two errors I spotted, both early on:

Spoiler

Show

Lose the "ed".


Full stop (period), not comma.

Thanks And fixed ... I'm pretty sure the comma is correct, though.

And just one little nagging promblem

Spoiler

Show

Where exactly did the name Trixie come from? Everything else seemed to be foreshadowed, but where did the sudden name change come from?

But altogether, it was a good read.

Spoiler

Show

It was just a name she came up with, I suppose. I didn't want Mouse to just tell her a name, or even tell her that her name was not good enough ... at least not directly.

[DigoDragon]

I'm pretty sure there was a sight-gag at one point involving ponies wearing full on enviromental haz-mat suit thingies, I think they're fine.

Yeah, The Cutie Pox.
I guess Cloudsdale's weather factories have some... residuals.
Or maybe it's from cleaning up messes left behind by their neighbors. The ponies themselves seem like a pretty clean nation, but we don't know much about the sentient races around them.

Or it could be pseudo-technology. You don't need fancy equipment when there is a unicorn to do it all with magic. It might even be possible for unicorns to enrich uranium magically, and make heavy water by magically siphoning out the lighter isotopes.

I thought the symbol just meant they have a grasp on the atomic model. They seem to have Astronomy fairly well developed... but it is interesting if we could learn how much of their sciences were discovered through magical means.

In a couple more years maybe they'll develop magical rocketry?

[Trixie]

My nuclear fission spell was a success! Spike, take a letter to the princess, this discovery will revolutionize Equestria. Or, uh, well, it will revolutionize it for earth ponies when there aren't any unicorns around.

More like:

Spike, that Element 94 thing I magicovered today is producing really funny tingling feeling in my horn. Let's see that will happen if I magic, say, 15 more kilograms of it into a pile!

I thought the symbol just meant they have a grasp on the atomic model. They seem to have Astronomy fairly well developed... but it is interesting if we could learn how much of their sciences were discovered through magical means.

In a couple more years maybe they'll develop magical rocketry?

IIRC, Treefoil is combination of two military warning signs - Propellers! (found on airports) and Electricity! (found in radars/power generators) chosen for military personnel familiarity with them and has little to do with symbol of atom.

As for magic, it's just another instrument, and seeing Ciolkowski did his magnum opus full two generations before atomic bomb, rocketry should be a given anyway

Isn't there astronaut pony custume anyway?

That may be how we got the symbol, but it doesn't mean squat on how ponies got it. It's entirely reasonable that, being a far less aggressive race with access to inherent magic, their development of nuclear technology was vastly different than ours.

Except, technology doesn't work like in Civ games. You can't discover Electricity before inventing the Wheel, you pretty much always need some prerequisite to progress and it gets triply as rigid in nuclear sciences. So, other development path are wrong.

To get anything useful out of nuclear fusion/fission you need to master controlled chain reaction. This means big experimental fission piles. Uncontrolled reactions are so much easier we had thermonuclear bombs for 60 years and still struggle with working prototype of peaceful fusion.

So, nope, exact same development way, maybe less weaponizing but that's it.

[otakuryoga]

besides...
why would ponies need to weaponize nuclear energy?
they themselves are weaponized cute

[Trixie]

besides...
why would ponies need to weaponize nuclear energy?
they themselves are weaponized cute

Well, the same reason they have tanks, missiles, guns, helmets and such?

Griffons, probably. Or Zebras. Or Dragons. Or that pesky Ponie's Republic of Friendshipstan and race in bomb-armed pegasi squadron gap

[Tvtyrant]

I thought the symbol just meant they have a grasp on the atomic model. They seem to have Astronomy fairly well developed... but it is interesting if we could learn how much of their sciences were discovered through magical means.

In a couple more years maybe they'll develop magical rocketry?

I think it is possible.

Spoiler

Show

Pony technology moves fast.

Also, I found this awesome reverse comic!

Spoiler

Show

[Alabenson]

More like:

Spike, that Element 94 thing I magicovered today is producing really funny tingling feeling in my horn. Let's see that will happen if I magic, say, 15 more kilograms of it into a pile!



IIRC, Treefoil is combination of two military warning signs - Propellers! (found on airports) and Electricity! (found in radars/power generators) chosen for military personnel familiarity with them and has little to do with symbol of atom.

As for magic, it's just another instrument, and seeing Ciolkowski did his magnum opus full two generations before atomic bomb, rocketry should be a given anyway

Isn't there astronaut pony custume anyway?



Except, technology doesn't work like in Civ games. You can't discover Electricity before inventing the Wheel, you pretty much always need some prerequisite to progress and it gets triply as rigid in nuclear sciences. So, other development path are wrong.

To get anything useful out of nuclear fusion/fission you need to master controlled chain reaction. This means big experimental fission piles. Uncontrolled reactions are so much easier we had thermonuclear bombs for 60 years and still struggle with working prototype of peaceful fusion.

So, nope, exact same development way, maybe less weaponizing but that's it.

I think we may be overthinking this a tad: isn't it entirely possible that, in Equestria, the nuclear trefoil originated as the cutie mark of the pony scientist to begin actual study of nuclear physics, i.e. the pony equivalent of Marie Curie?

[Anarion]

More like:

Spike, that Element 94 thing I magicovered today is producing really funny tingling feeling in my horn. Let's see that will happen if I magic, say, 15 more kilograms of it into a pile!

Totally possible, and I'm sure a nice shielding spell would handle the resultant explosion just fine. Followed by a de-irradiation spell, although as far as ways to end up with the Fallout: Equestria setting this is one of the most plausible I've seen.

To get anything useful out of nuclear fusion/fission you need to master controlled chain reaction. This means big experimental fission piles. Uncontrolled reactions are so much easier we had thermonuclear bombs for 60 years and still struggle with working prototype of peaceful fusion.

So, nope, exact same development way, maybe less weaponizing but that's it.

Whoa there let's hold our metaphorical tiny horses. The development of nuclear power was a historical coincidence and I am strongly convinced it would never have become a bomb had there not been a war going on.

HISTORY

Spoiler

Show

First off, I'm not going to argue about the exact date of the discovery of fission, but it was 1938-39ish and I credit Otto Hahn and Lise Meintner with the discovery. The results were published in 1939 as were several other experiments from different teams and it took 6 years give or take a few months to end up with a bomb.

At the same time they postulated the possibility of nuclear reactors using the same kind of chain reaction with mediators, and the use of particle accelerators at the UC Berkeley Lawrence labs were also getting running in the same period, which were able to manufacture U-235 safely. All of this put together set the stage for Los Alamos National Laboratory and heavy government funding, which vastly accelerated the creation of both bombs and reactors thanks to the huge number of collected scientists and money.

However, even when they were intent on developing a bomb, the creation of a nuclear reactor, up in Washington State iirc, was required first in order to refine enough uranium to make the fissile material for a bomb. Fission reactors and fission bombs were invented almost simultaneously. It took another decade to get thermonuclear bombs, and it's unfair to compare that to controlled fusion because the issue with fusion is that it requires such high temperatures that it takes too much power to get it started and its incredibly difficult to control.

But back to nuclear reactors, the development of light water reactors was done before 1950 and by the 1960s there were several types of reactors and several countries around the world (mostly UN security council) were already beginning to build their own nuclear industries. Many of them also acquired the bomb, but not all. Japan, for example, accepted American engineers and in exchange they built a system of pressured light water reactors that do not produce fissile material suitable for use in a bomb, although their nuclear waste could be turned into a bomb through refinement in some other type of reaction.

In all cases of practical nuclear power obtained via fission, however, the reactor and refinement process predated the development of weaponry. This continues to be true in today's political climate, with nations such as Pakistan and Iran developing reactors as a prerequisite to obtain nuclear bombs.

In sum. The fact that history focused on a bomb was a total coincidence and proper development of nuclear reactors was prerequisite of and independent of the development of a bomb.

Edit:

I think we may be overthinking this a tad: isn't it entirely possible that, in Equestria, the nuclear trefoil originated as the cutie mark of the pony scientist to begin actual study of nuclear physics, i.e. the pony equivalent of Marie Curie?

No. Shut up. Dang pony making sense and ignoring all the cool history.

[erikun]

Hello again, everyone. It's been awhile! Don't mind me if I'm treading ground that's already been covered; I didn't exactly go through and read everything I've missed.

Here's a random question, or rather a thought experiment, perhaps inspired a bit by the ethics class that I'm ignoring as I type this. It's a twisted version of Nozick's experience machine.



Trixie appears before you and offers to to turn you into a pony and send you to Equestria. You get your choice of pony type (except for alicorn) and place to be sent. However, the change is permanent; once you're a pony and in Equestria, you're there to stay. You retain all memories and personality you had before.

The question is, do you go or do you stay? Please explain your answer.

I would squee happily, pick her up and give her a big hug. I'd sit her down and give her a casual chat while providing lots of brushies. I'd be curious about her magic tricks and see if she's willing to show me a few. I'd set up a webcam and take a few pictures for everyone.

What what? Question? What are you talking about?



In somewhat related news, a recent EqD article has sparked a question in my mind. I'm sure that everyone would enjoy seeing 26-episodes a year, every year, for as long as they're interested. It just doesn't seem like we'll be going that direction, though. So what would everyone prefer to seeing with the series: A short number of FiM seasons, with as many episodes as can be packed into each one? Or a longer-running series with more seasons but less episodes per season? Would you prefer to see FiM running as long as possible, keeping the good content coming sparsely but consistently, or have one giant block of everything good and keep things running afterwards purely on fandom?

I'm curious about others' thoughts.

[Trixie]

I think we may be overthinking this a tad: isn't it entirely possible that, in Equestria, the nuclear trefoil originated as the cutie mark of the pony scientist to begin actual study of nuclear physics, i.e. the pony equivalent of Marie Curie?

Might be? But, that would be really sad pony backstory...

And another thing is, 90% of what we know about radioactivity and long term radioactive damage known to humans comes really from one source, in small part accidents during nuclear weapon assembly, then from dropping them to make big boom with people around and finding out what happens to these that weren't vaporized on explosion. Entirely peaceful nuclear program might be paradoxically far less safe and have much worse safety below obvious, noticeable doses...

Also, small comment to someone who said writers might not care how nuclear physics work - well, they might not care or know cars don't run on water, but on gas, but it doesn't mean fans discussing potential plotlines need to be lazy about it or have low fact standards.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm pretty sure there was a sight-gag at one point involving ponies wearing full on enviromental haz-mat suit thingies, I think they're fine.

And enough for the whole town too! I think Mayor Mare is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

On the whole nuclear ponies discussion I would like to point out that Rainbow Dash is capable of creating mushroom cloud level explosions. Perhaps that's where the symbol originated from?


Also I refuse to believe that tanks, fighter jets, and nukes exist in Equestria when the Royal Guard appear to be armed with spears.

Did the player just refuse to promote that unit or something?

[Gamerlord]

Also I refuse to believe that tanks, fighter jets, and nukes exist in Equestria when the Royal Guard appear to be armed with spears.

Did the player just refuse to promote that unit or something?

Perhaps they're a recent invention, and they all get shipped to the borders of Equestria upon construction instead of lying around in the capitol for the honor guard to parade around in? After all, what are the odds of someone sneaking past the borders without warning and attacking Canterlot?

[Pokonic]

And enough for the whole town too! I think Mayor Mare is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

Well, after Nightmare Moon and Discord, anyone would be a little loco after attempting damage control. Heck, just the Parasprites. Or the Ursa. Or the fact the town she supposidly runs is right next the he Everfree, for that matter.


"Great pay, they said. It's a sleepy town, nothing bad happens here, they said. Hic. Hit me again, Joe."

[Anarion]

And enough for the whole town too! I think Mayor Mare is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

On the whole nuclear ponies discussion I would like to point out that Rainbow Dash is capable of creating mushroom cloud level explosions. Perhaps that's where the symbol originated from?


Also I refuse to believe that tanks, fighter jets, and nukes exist in Equestria when the Royal Guard appear to be armed with spears.

Did the player just refuse to promote that unit or something?

Except for Shining Armor with his magic shield, who's to say that the royal guard we see are anything more than a glorified Canterlot honor guard? The Vatican in the real world still uses uniformed Swiss guards armed with halberds to guard their doors, even if they also have Uzis.

[Forum Explorer]

Except for Shining Armor with his magic shield, who's to say that the royal guard we see are anything more than a glorified Canterlot honor guard? The Vatican in the real world still uses uniformed Swiss guards armed with halberds to guard their doors, even if they also have Uzis.

Bolded for emphasis. Plus they are the only armed military force we've seen at all. (The Wonderbolts may or may not be a military force, but we've never seen them use weapons.) Also they thought they were being threatened which is why they were shielded in the first place, thus if they had an actual military they would be present as well.

Even the invading Changlings didn't use any weapons beyond their magic.

[Alabenson]

Also I refuse to believe that tanks, fighter jets, and nukes exist in Equestria when the Royal Guard appear to be armed with spears.

Did the player just refuse to promote that unit or something?

Hence why I put forth my Pony Curie (or Marie Cutie) theory; regardless as to whether or not the development of atomic energy can be divorced from the development of atomic weaponry, the technological level of Equestria seems to be too low to really support either.

Well, after Nightmare Moon and Discord, anyone would be a little loco after attempting damage control. Heck, just the Parasprites. Or the Ursa. Or the fact the town she supposidly runs is right next the he Everfree, for that matter.


"Great pay, they said. It's a sleepy town, nothing bad happens here, they said. Hic. Hit me again, Joe."

Basically, this. Ponyville has been the nexus of enough disasters and bizarre happenings that a certain level of emergency preparation by the town's authorities should be expected.

[Trixie]

Well, after Nightmare Moon and Discord, anyone would be a little loco after attempting damage control. Heck, just the Parasprites. Or the Ursa. Or the fact the town she supposidly runs is right next the he Everfree, for that matter.


"Great pay, they said. It's a sleepy town, nothing bad happens here, they said. Hic. Hit me again, Joe."

Isn't town not earning amount to cover all damages canon anyway?

Also, would that make Berryshine town's accountant with job even worse than Major's? :P

Also I refuse to believe that tanks, fighter jets, and nukes exist in Equestria when the Royal Guard appear to be armed with spears.

Did the player just refuse to promote that unit or something?

Let's us ask these pesky bipeds what they use to guard their castles!

Spoiler

Show

And the borders?

Spoiler

Show

Mmm, we rest our case

[Beacon of Chaos]

Thanks And fixed ... I'm pretty sure the comma is correct, though.

Looking at it again... yeah, a period wouldn't be right. It just... looks weird to me.

I guess that's why I'm not a writer

Spoiler

Show

It was just a name she came up with, I suppose. I didn't want Mouse to just tell her a name, or even tell her that her name was not good enough ... at least not directly.

Fair enough.

[Trixie]

Hence why I put forth my Pony Curie (or Marie Cutie) theory; regardless as to whether or not the development of atomic energy can be divorced from the development of atomic weaponry, the technological level of Equestria seems to be too low to really support either.

Computers. Night vision goggles. Wireless headsets. At worst, Equestria is '90s, far beyond required capability?

Bolded for emphasis. Plus they are the only armed military force we've seen at all. (The Wonderbolts may or may not be a military force, but we've never seen them use weapons.) Also they thought they were being threatened which is why they were shielded in the first place, thus if they had an actual military they would be present as well.

Wonderbolts did fine against MadSpike. As for not seeing army, how many tanks you see on streets of Washington or New York? Invasion lasted far too short to bring any of them from the border.

Spoiler

Show

Arms - we not only have armoured ponies with spears in one of S3 songs, we have armoured pegasi in HWE episode, picking fights with everyone and threatening them with military force with appropriate for the past tech level. Of course modern military will be less obvious than that, not wearing plate armour, for one - but still, even Crystal ponies that slept for thousand years know what 'spy' is perfectly well, and we have 'party' cannon which is actual gun in use.

[Kd7sov]

Computers. Night vision goggles. Wireless headsets. At worst, Equestria is '90s, far beyond required capability?

...Where were these? Apart from fanart, I mean.

Okay, there was that one pony with the robot cutie mark. So there's the possibility of sci-fi writers. Which doesn't get us significantly past... probably about the forties.

[Alabenson]

Computers. Night vision goggles. Wireless headsets. At worst, Equestria is '90s, far beyond required capability?

However, these are alongside steam powered locamotives as the primary form of mass transit, print being the dominant mass media, and communications being limited to either traditional mail carriers or dragonfire, all of which point to a level of technology closer to the 1890's than the 1990's.

Even assuming that the use of unicorn magic has put Equestria on a very different path of technological development than our world, there's still little or no evidence of the large scale industrial development that nuclear technology required. Bear in mind, developing the technology needed to master nuclear fission required billions of dollars in 1940's currancy and one of the greatest concentrations of scientific knowledge in human history.

[Forum Explorer]

Trixie you should label that spoiler. I don't know what's in it but I'm afraid to check in case it's got S3 spoilers.

Ditto to why I'm not directly quoting you.

Anyways yes the Wonderbolts did decently against Greed!Spike. That A) doesn't necessarily make them a military force (though I think it does personally) and B) they fought him without using weapons.

Point A) doesn't really matter for our discussion. Point B) though does as it is yet another case where ponies fend off threats without conventional weapons.


How many tanks do I see? None. However if they thought they were being invaded? (which is why the shield was up in the first place.) Then I expect to see tanks and other military forces deployed. Something worth to note is that there are tanks in Washington and New York inside military bases. Likewise with the Royal Guard. If they only use spears as ceremonial tools then I would expect them to be armed better during a period where a serious if unknown threat existed.

[Gamerlord]

Reviewers, Quick!

My story for the EqD Nightmare Night contest is done, and needs a quick review from anyone who cares to give it a quick read. I have to send it to EqD in less than 20 hours, and I need to submit it for approval from FiMFiction very soon, so I'd love some feedback, anything at all, no matter how small, before that.

It's fairly short (3000 words) and doesn't contain any blood or much of that nature. It should be readable by anyone who doesn't mind a slightly spooky story of corruption and possible ghostly possession.

Squeak! (I think the link should work, even though it's not published yet)

Read it, don't have much to say except that I thought it was pretty good.

[Tvtyrant]

...Where were these? Apart from fanart, I mean.

Okay, there was that one pony with the robot cutie mark. So there's the possibility of sci-fi writers. Which doesn't get us significantly past... probably about the forties.

We have seen old computers when Twilight inspected Pinkie Pie. Not 90s, but 50s certainly.