General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Exthalion]

That sort of thinking is what has made Abyssals as straightjacketed as they currently are.

Currently, there are two stories to tell with Abyssals - Loyalists who tear down Creation and Rebels who seek to become not-Abyssals. There should be more, but the mechanics (and not just Resonance) don't let it happen.

I couldn't agree more. There seems to be this line in the fluff with Abyssals as champions for the dead and intercessors between people and their ancestors that isn't well supported. The avengers of murderers, the guardians of tradition, and those who bring closure to the living are all roles they can and should play.

[SKarious]

That sort of thinking is what has made Abyssals as straightjacketed as they currently are.

Currently, there are two stories to tell with Abyssals - Loyalists who tear down Creation and Rebels who seek to become not-Abyssals. There should be more, but the mechanics (and not just Resonance) don't let it happen.

Can't you say that about the Solars as well? "Solars have only two stories: god-rulers, or mad god-rulers."
By the having the path of redemption, as well as destruction, Abyssals have more stories to tell.
And how about the other possibilities presented in the Abyssal books: Abyssals as heroes of the Underworld. There are evil rulers to remove (such as the Deathlords), Behemoths and nightmare-monsters to fight, strage lands to explore, great cities to unite or destroy, ghostly societies to rule over.. pretty much anything Solars do in Creation, Abyssals can do in the Underworld (Perhaps even better, because of their powers, necromancy and backgrounds).
How about the other worlds? Malfeas, the Wyld, Autochtonia and the like? Aren't Abyssals useful there? Can't they have stories just as epic as Solars or Sidereals do?

[Friv]

Can't you say that about the Solars as well? "Solars have only two stories: god-rulers, or mad god-rulers."
By the having the path of redemption, as well as destruction, Abyssals have more stories to tell.
And how about the other possibilities presented in the Abyssal books: Abyssals as heroes of the Underworld. There are evil rulers to remove (such as the Deathlords), Behemoths and nightmare-monsters to fight, strage lands to explore, great cities to unite or destroy, ghostly societies to rule over.. pretty much anything Solars do in Creation, Abyssals can do in the Underworld (Perhaps even better, because of their powers, necromancy and backgrounds).
How about the other worlds? Malfeas, the Wyld, Autochtonia and the like? Aren't Abyssals useful there? Can't they have stories just as epic as Solars or Sidereals do?

The argument, which I agree with about 75%, is that Solars actually have a lot of stories. You can play a story about god-rulers, or a story about a band of wandering heroes, or a band of operatives trying to rally the world into an alliance, or a group dedicated to serving someone and promoting their interests, or a McGuffin search for a greater purpose, or whatever.

With Abyssals, no matter what story you're telling, the mechanics force you towards "and then you murdered the world" unless the story becomes specifically about trying to not murder the world. Abyssal god-kings murder their kingdom. Abyssal wandering heroes murder the people they're trying to protect. Abyssal McGuffin searches become about redemption. And so on.

[Doran]

Hmm perhaps a way to fix it would be to have some abyssals that have the Great curse and no resonance, but still abyssal charms? I think Jukashi over came this in Lunar quest by having the resident abyssal mainly ruling over a kingdom of ghost and doing titan science.

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Of course this way after The Dragon's Shadow sealed off the Neverborn, and changed abyssals themes to include darkness and individuality/free will as well as death.

[SKarious]

T You can play a story about god-rulers, or a story about a band of wandering heroes, or a band of operatives trying to rally the world into an alliance, or a group dedicated to serving someone and promoting their interests, or a McGuffin search for a greater purpose, or whatever.

But Abyssls can do all those things as well. Destruction is their theme, true. but don't confuse the story for the means. Siddereals achieve things by warping fate, Lunars by shapeshifting, Abyssals by destroying things.
The rulebook has examples of "tricks" for Abyssals that want to adventure without ruining Creation.
You can help Creation grow if you're clever enough or prepared to suffer for it.
And, of course, they can do pretty much whatever they want in the Underworld.
Politics in a dead kingdom can be just as tricky as the politics in the living kingdom. Same for Labyrinth-diving for mcguffins, adventuring as a band of heroes to the ghost-folk, or keeping a figure in power against the schemes of others who may have hundreds of years experience of rivalry and intrigue.

[Lord Raziere]

Skar, you don't understand.

Sure you can try those stories, but there is always that haunting mechanic called Resonance. you try playing anything than these two stories: Destroy the world or Redeem, then Resonance will step in and make the story about the former anyways. Everything you do will in some way screw things up, and even if you go into Underworld, Resonance isn't a purely physical poison.

it doesn't matter if you try to have Abyssals play those stories, it'll soon become about Destroying the World or Redeeming anyways, because Resonance is the worst mechanic ever made.

[Gensh]

No, I'd agree with SK. While the Abyssal Charmset certainly drives them in the direction of murdering everything, it doesn't explicitly limit their options. Simply use your own judgment when replacing or modifying Resonance, and there isn't much of a problem beyond the inherent blandness they've inherited from Solars. I've said it before and I'll say it again, any Solar plot can be done more interestingly with DBs.

[Kyeudo]

The problem with Abyssals is that they can't do anything unless you can do it with killing and smashing. Also, they have bosses who can do a wide variety of horrible things to them from arbitrary distances and who can't realistically be toppled. Resonance is just the icing on the cake of murder and corpses that prevents you from running away from it all.

Also, Solars are more interesting that Dragon-Blooded.

[Lord Raziere]

Pffh, Deathlords? They're easy, just start your backstory with you already having escaped from them. Its the Resonance thats the real problem. I would gladly fight against the Deathlords, they are problems you can solve, a good challenge.

and Resonance is only the problem, because it was made as the primary thing that defined the difference between Abyssals and Solars in the first place, instead of doing the Abyssal charmset properly so that they would be more different from Solars, they copy-pasted it, realized that oh **** its not a unique playstyle experience, so put on Resonance to make it seem unique when all it does is suck all possible Abyssal stories into two that I don't want to play.

thus giving Abyssals a better charmset, one that actually conveys their themes, will cause Resonance to be less harsh, which will allow more stories to open up, thus solving the problem.

and Dragon-Blooded are totally more interesting than Solars.

[Kyeudo]

Dragon-Blooded are priviliged aristocrats, handed power by merit of birth.

Solars are the common man, handed the power to change the world.

Dragon-Blooded only become interesting when they are first-generation Dragon-Blooded, Exalting in a common station. Basically, when they are being knock-off Solars.

[golentan]

Dragon-Blooded are priviliged aristocrats, handed power by merit of birth.

Solars are the common man, handed the power to change the world.

Dragon-Blooded only become interesting when they are first-generation Dragon-Blooded, Exalting in a common station. Basically, when they are being knock-off Solars.

...

Nah, Game of Thrones with Dragonblooded is also quite interesting.

[Gensh]

Dragon-Blooded are priviliged aristocrats, handed power by merit of birth.

Solars are the common man, handed the power to change the world.

Dragon-Blooded only become interesting when they are first-generation Dragon-Blooded, Exalting in a common station. Basically, when they are being knock-off Solars.

The difference between playing a Solar and playing a Lost Egg is that the former must always be on the run unless they establish their own power base, whereas the latter can interact with the already-extant society in a variety of ways - and yet is still capable of creating situations that force them to be always on the run unless they establish their own power base. More importantly, there are definitely "Dragonblooded games." Compare that a game with Solars could just as easily be "D&D, but in Creation." And regardless of whether you would enjoy it, playing a noble-born DB is hardly boring.

[Dragnar]

Pffh, Deathlords? They're easy, just start your backstory with you already having escaped from them. Its the Resonance thats the real problem. I would gladly fight against the Deathlords, they are problems you can solve, a good challenge.

Let's see... Already escaped... So, that's nice for a few days. Too bad the Deathlords can inflict horrible mindrape on you almost for free, as long as they hold your monstrance. Also they can telepathically give you orders from anywhere, which give you a boatload of resonance to disobey in every scene they bother to do so.

Fight them? How? Not only do they have scene long perfect defenses, they just regenerate if killed, no matter what. The only hope you have is to find a secret weakness that may or may not exist, and exploit it.

Now, of course, both of these things are incredibly poor writing. The first makes rebellion impossible in the first place, and the second makes them awful villains, because there's simply no way to defeat them, no matter what you do. Both should be scrapped entirely for any game involving abyssals... but they are there, in canon. So yeah, there's some major problems with that plan by the usual fluff, far past resonance.

[RPGuru1331]

Dragon-Blooded are priviliged aristocrats, handed power by merit of birth.

Solars are the common man, handed the power to change the world.

Dragon-Blooded only become interesting when they are first-generation Dragon-Blooded, Exalting in a common station. Basically, when they are being knock-off Solars.

Well, different strokes. I find outcastes incredibly boring as a rule, while the byzantine, dynastic politics of Dynasts interest me, but hey, whatevs.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I think you all are mistaking Raziere's distaste with Abyssal copy-pasted charmset with lack of acknowledgment of what other stuff people could do to have fun with them.

Let me repeat then: Abyssals have ALL their charms done wrong. They are supposed to be anti-Solars, their dark mirror. Currently they are just Solars with some make up and thats it. Let me write an example what I believe is a reverse (Medicine and War):

Medicine charm-tree of Solar makes him excellent healer. Let him miraculously diagnose patient, cure from all ills, poisons and crippling.

Medicine charm-tree of Abyssal serves to ruin lives. Let him find ways to affect the victim the most deadly way, inflict with horrible diseases, poison and cripple with but a touch.

War charm-tree of Solar makes him excellent general. Let him unbelievably lead armies, train them to nearly superhuman levels of skill and protect in battle.

War charm-tree of Abyssal make him the terror of battlefields. He knows how to ruthlessly exploit his army for greater slaughter, how to make training of his enemies work against them and how to destroy as many of them in battle as possible.



Dragnar, i believe you got it wrong. The fake invulnerability of the Deathlols make defeating them a fun story ! It's very heroic theme, to defeat "impossible" foe.

Canon ways of destroying them:
One, Deathlord thrown into Void ... ceases to exist. Everyone in the know simply know it.
Two, Deathlords super-powers aside are still ghosts. Ghosts are ingredients for Abyssals, to make soulsteel for example.
Three, unexpected Holy soul-breaker orb. Hurts.

[Lord Raziere]

Let's see... Already escaped... So, that's nice for a few days. Too bad the Deathlords can inflict horrible mindrape on you almost for free, as long as they hold your monstrance. Also they can telepathically give you orders from anywhere, which give you a boatload of resonance to disobey in every scene they bother to do so.

Fight them? How? Not only do they have scene long perfect defenses, they just regenerate if killed, no matter what. The only hope you have is to find a secret weakness that may or may not exist, and exploit it.

Now, of course, both of these things are incredibly poor writing. The first makes rebellion impossible in the first place, and the second makes them awful villains, because there's simply no way to defeat them, no matter what you do. Both should be scrapped entirely for any game involving abyssals... but they are there, in canon. So yeah, there's some major problems with that plan by the usual fluff, far past resonance.

Ok, one, it is naturally assumed that you already destroyed your monstrance unless you like, Intelligence 1 ok? Thats like step one of escaping from Death Lords.

and secret weakness? dude thats signing their death warrant before you even play a game. in stories, secret weaknesses are there to be found out, if you are fighting a Death Lord you will obviously find it and use it to kill them. invincible but with secret weakness means the ST has fun bypassing the rules altogether to make the fight memorable and fun.

and by now my distaste for the current Exalted rules are so extensive that they might as well not be valid to me. they only seem to get in the way.

@Kyeudo: hahaha, lolno.

A Solar could Exalt from a noble family in the middle of a luxurious mansion lifestyle whilst being given the best in a classical education.

A Dragon-Blooded can Exalted from the thinnest of blood in the backalleys of the most distant places in Creation.

A Solar is about competence, no matter wherever it comes from, and a Dragon-Blooded is about having the blood-wherever it comes from. whether your noble or common man matters for nothing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

@Kyeudo: hahaha, lolno.

A Solar could Exalt from a noble family in the middle of a luxurious mansion lifestyle whilst being given the best in a classical education.

A Dragon-Blooded can Exalted from the thinnest of blood in the backalleys of the most distant places in Creation.

A Solar is about competence, no matter wherever it comes from, and a Dragon-Blooded is about having the blood-wherever it comes from. whether your noble or common man matters for nothing.

Nooo, Solars are about expression of Virtue. Their charms help them reach greater heights through sheer skill (and sometimes blast things with sunlight). They exalt, however, from expressing that which is the other aspect of the Unconquered Sun. Conviction for being unwilling to fall, Valor for facing overwhelming odds, Compassion for trying to save a loved one, Temperance for... keeping your cool in stressful negotiations? Nobody exalts as a Solar by doing everyday training.

[Gensh]

Nooo, Solars are about expression of Virtue. Their charms help them reach greater heights through sheer skill (and sometimes blast things with sunlight). They exalt, however, from expressing that which is the other aspect of the Unconquered Sun. Conviction for being unwilling to fall, Valor for facing overwhelming odds, Compassion for trying to save a loved one, Temperance for... keeping your cool in stressful negotiations? Nobody exalts as a Solar by doing everyday training.

If I'm right about the particular Solar Raziere is thinking about (*winkwink*), he means that even a noble with a completely cushy lifestyle living in the absolute lap of luxury can indeed Solarize - it just probably won't be the typical physically standing up to some big bad mofo - rather he'd do so by pushing the limits of SCIENCE! or risking it all by confronting a reactionary member of the Wyld Hunt about the human collateral during a major social event. Conviction and Valor, respectively.

[RPGuru1331]

Ok, one, it is naturally assumed that you already destroyed your monstrance unless you like, Intelligence 1 ok? Thats like step one of escaping from Death Lords.

I'm one of the more permissive people I know in allowing big stuff in a backstory, and there is no way I'd let you break your monstrance in your backstory unless you're an Abyssal in a mixed game (Which I wouldn't do anyway, so it's rather a moot point). It's too juicy a plot point to allow it to be handled ahead of time.

Nobody exalts as a Solar by doing everyday training.

Unless it's everyday training on your road to destroying the God of War for some reason or other, in which case it can trigger a Dawn Exaltation same as any other extended activity provided it's sufficiently impressive. I can't see choosing to make that the event, but it's technically possible.

[Dragnar]

Ok, one, it is naturally assumed that you already destroyed your monstrance unless you like, Intelligence 1 ok? Thats like step one of escaping from Death Lords.

and secret weakness? dude thats signing their death warrant before you even play a game. in stories, secret weaknesses are there to be found out, if you are fighting a Death Lord you will obviously find it and use it to kill them. invincible but with secret weakness means the ST has fun bypassing the rules altogether to make the fight memorable and fun.

Oh, I'll admit the secret weakness is possible to find out... the trick is that, first off, it may not exist at all. And second, there is zero hint as to where to start looking. At the point where you're fighting a deathlord, you're completely ignoring canon about them and just running your own villain in their spot. (Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing. )

But for the other point: Unfortunately, the game goes to great lengths to ensure you have not destroyed your monstrance. As far as any Abyssal knows, doing so kills them, and even if they did manage to find out that's a lie (Possible, yes, but that already has narrowed down the field of potential backstories a lot.) there's still the matter of the things having hardness 40. Again, yes, it is beatable... but even for an abyssal, that takes quite a lot of combat focus.

Now, just as a disclaimer here: I've played an abyssal rebel before. I like them! I do not like just how much you have to go out of your way to ignore canon fluff to reasonably play anything but a loyalist. It's worse than the first few chapters of Infernals...

[Lord Raziere]

Nooo, Solars are about expression of Virtue. Their charms help them reach greater heights through sheer skill (and sometimes blast things with sunlight). They exalt, however, from expressing that which is the other aspect of the Unconquered Sun. Conviction for being unwilling to fall, Valor for facing overwhelming odds, Compassion for trying to save a loved one, Temperance for... keeping your cool in stressful negotiations? Nobody exalts as a Solar by doing everyday training.

Geh. people keep telling so many conflicting versions of how you Exalt as a Solar that I'm starting to get confused about that as well.

as for Temperance: you Exalt for turning down tremendous temptation. like being offered a lot of power if you just do this one thing against your beliefs, and going "no" in response. Ned Stark probably would've Exalted for Temperance sometime in the later first book of Game of Thrones.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If I'm right about the particular Solar Raziere is thinking about (*winkwink*), he means that even a noble with a completely cushy lifestyle living in the absolute lap of luxury can indeed Solarize - it just probably won't be the typical physically standing up to some big bad mofo - rather he'd do so by pushing the limits of SCIENCE! or risking it all by confronting a reactionary member of the Wyld Hunt about the human collateral during a major social event. Conviction and Valor, respectively.

Oh, yeah. I neglected to mention that. Sudden revelations of Compassion or Conviction without any real external trigger can certainly make you exalt, as can the situations you laid out.

[blazingshadow]

this probably has been asked before or maybe it's detailed in one of the books but can a lunar have a human as a spirit shape?

[Exthalion]

this probably has been asked before or maybe it's detailed in one of the books but can a lunar have a human as a spirit shape?

It is hinted in Lunars that if every human were to die that the Lunar shards could exalt animals who would gain human spirit shapes.

[blazingshadow]

It is hinted in Lunars that if every human were to die that the Lunar shards could exalt animals who would gain human spirit shapes.

but not a ranma 1/2 kind of thing where a human has a human shape

edit: something like a redhead female being the most evil kind of beast

[Doran]

What would happen to the solar and sidereal shards if humanity went extinct?

[Yuki Akuma]

It is hinted in Lunars that if every human were to die that the Lunar shards could exalt animals who would gain human spirit shapes.

Scroll of Errata says animals cannot exalt. It's very specific about it.

[Exthalion]

Scroll of Errata says animals cannot exalt. It's very specific about it.

Yes, page 53.

Can Animals Exalt?
No.

However, if an ST wants to run a game set after all humans have died and Lunars were repopulating, I don't think he/she and the players would care much. I think the general reason for that was to prevent people from playing as post animal exalts in standard games.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It is hinted in Lunars that if every human were to die that the Lunar shards could exalt animals who would gain human spirit shapes.

Hinted? It's STATED.

And as a D&D player, I always go with specific beats general.

In any case, human Lunars cannot have human spirit shapes, etc. etc.

[Exthalion]

Hinted? It's STATED.

And as a D&D player, I always go with specific beats general.

In any case, human Lunars cannot have human spirit shapes, etc. etc.

I was going from memory. It is also not stated, it is presented as a possible game style along with the Elders are all Crazy and others. Which puts it somewhere up there with Return of the Scarlet Empress in how much you are required to make use or acknowledge it.