League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[Forrestfire]

A bit off-topic, but I felt like sharing this:

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[MCerberus]

I'd like to point out that if you like giggling inside of a bush, you can't beat support Voli

[PersonMan]

To be honest, the 'support' picture should only be that if you have bad supports.

Otherwise it needs to be a no-hold barred, blood-soaked battlefield. Really, the more I think about it the more I have the opinion that the ADC's job is to farm, while the support wins the lane.

[toasty]

I would never play this lane if I were going to aim for a safe strategy. I'd play it as an all in, do-or-die lane. I normally don't aim for that, but nonetheless it can be very fun to play those lanes now and then to break the monotony of Ez/Sona vs Taric/Graves.

Fiddlesticks I'd play in a serious lane, since he works well in one; whereas GP (my other unconventional support) is less serious but still competitive. The Rengar lane is clearly a kill lane, where it doesn't matter that the "support" is getting SOME of the kills, so long as the opponent is dead and the AD carry gets to free farm. I used to play support Singed for a friend when he played Graves. Worked a charm, but that by no means says the the character is best suited to that position.

Fair enough, and I do think support as a role is highly underrated right now and I'm actually realizing, after months of sustain less valued, how awesome non-sustain supports are.

Actually, with all this FOTM double AD and Solo AD carries mid coming from Fear, Quantic, and even Curse a little, I wouldn't be surprised to see the obvious followup: Double Tank Bot lanes. BlitzStar my friends? BlitzStar.

edit: My ideal ideal Bot Lane right now would probably be Garen Darius, for the lulz. Blitz Darius seems fun too, especially against a Sona.

[Math_Mage]

Speaking of unconventional supports, my most recent experience along those lines was playing against a GP support. Which would have been fine, except this was blind pick. We were playing Vayne/Janna. As you can imagine, this did not end well for us.

[ex cathedra]

The issue with most of these unconventional supports, I think, is that most of them do the same thing as normal supports but worse. Take LeBlanc for instance. That sit-in-a-bush-and-burst-from-afar strat is just better coming from Zyra, Sona, and Lulu.

[Temotei]

Introductions out of the way, I have this to ask: Who is your favourite less-conventional support, if any?

Probably Kennen or Lee Sin. They're both hilarious.

[TechnOkami]

Can't Fiddles support to a degree?

[Tychris1]

Can't Fiddles support to a degree?

Yes, it primarily consists of "LOL, AD Carry feared for 3 seconds while crow silences your support and the AD Carry. Woops, now I'm throwing in TONS OF DAMAGE! Oh, and then there's my AD as well, I guess. He's just sitting there farming."

[NineThePuma]

Rengar's jungle is awful right now, especially that first clear, and his ganks pre-6 are lack luster at best. Putting him top as a blood thirsty zone controlling demoncatman is his best role, but by the same token, putting him Bot to do much the same thing with less farming works well.

Also, the season 3 changes actually ruined him as a jungler even more.

[PersonMan]

The issue with most of these unconventional supports, I think, is that most of them do the same thing as normal supports but worse. Take LeBlanc for instance. That sit-in-a-bush-and-burst-from-afar strat is just better coming from Zyra, Sona, and Lulu.

Eh, I also play Support Zyra and I like LB better. Laning might be similar (it isn't, in my experience, very similar, actually), but mid/late game is entirely different.

Sona and Lulu both lack the whole 'mobility is my middle name' aspect of LB which I like. I also don't play support Lulu because I keep wanting to build bruiser Lulu whenever I play her...

[Forrestfire]

To be honest, the 'support' picture should only be that if you have bad supports.

Otherwise it needs to be a no-hold barred, blood-soaked battlefield. Really, the more I think about it the more I have the opinion that the ADC's job is to farm, while the support wins the lane.

I was under the impression that the support was the adult in the picture.

Solo queue support is like herding cats, except that cats are normally smart enough to not run into a meatgrinder...

[MCerberus]

I was under the impression that the support was the adult in the picture.

Solo queue support is like herding cats, except that cats are normally smart enough to not run into a meatgrinder...

Not adorable cats mind you, cats that do nothing but hiss at each other all day and claw you constantly.

[NineThePuma]

Reminds me of a game I did on TT where I was playing Skarner and had a Shaco who AFK'd for the first 4 minutes, then blamed me every time he died. I mean, yeah, I built tanky, but Shaco built PURE GLASS CANNON AD. It was awful.

[Silverraptor]

So, got Rengar. How to build him? Help please.

[NineThePuma]

Rengar is, surprisingly enough, fairly straight forward. I like to rush a brutalizer because it helps him immensely in lane, and then start going tanky. Phage, HexDrinker, and Wriggles are all core on him in my opinion. From there, I would upgrade to Mallet and pick up a GA. This gives you fairly solid tankyness without sacrificing your damage (which is your most important thing, IMO).

From there, it's a question of what role you need to fulfill for your team, and how the enemy is playing. I've found that going for a BT at this point drastically increases your damage output (usually in place of Wriggles, TBH), and replacing Brutalizer with a LW should be done pretty much as soon as the enemy squishies have an Armor item that isn't zhonyas.

[toasty]

So, got Rengar. How to build him? Help please.

Iwilldominate from Team Dignitas has played him a lot in the Jungle: He does a Boots start into HoG, Double Dorans Blade, Aegis and GA. I'm not sure how that plays out because I haven't really paid attention to him, it seems more like a tanky-bruiser guy than an assassin though.

Top Lane Voyboy has done stuff like Triforce or BT start. You can also do something like Hexdrinker, Phage, Tank items. In general GA seems a smart item on him (for now at least). If you want to maximize your magic damage sunfire cape is good. I've seen people play him with Sorc+Haunting Guise+Sunfire (also a decent build on malphite).

The general conclusion seems to be a tanky bruiser type guy versus a straight up assassin is the way to go, but within that there is room for stuff like Triforce or Last Whisper.

[TechnOkami]

So... I haven't Fiddle'd in a while, and I think I need a refresher on him.

In mid lane, is he a champ who would want to, say, rush an hourglass and build defensive AP items and then AP as necessary? Or should he go into a straight deathcap or should he build a revolver, ect? I really have not fiddles'd in a while.

[Eldariel]

So... I haven't Fiddle'd in a while, and I think I need a refresher on him.

In mid lane, is he a champ who would want to, say, rush an hourglass and build defensive AP items and then AP as necessary? Or should he go into a straight deathcap or should he build a revolver, ect? I really have not fiddles'd in a while.

Zhonya > Abyssal with Sorcs with couple of Doran's Rings and maybe Haunting Guise; his passive MRShred makes MPen stacking particularly strong on him.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, just did it again. The game definitely hangs in battle training if the nexus is destroyed before you do all the little fetch quests it gives you.

[TechnOkami]

Zhonya > Abyssal with Sorcs with couple of Doran's Rings and maybe Haunting Guise; his passive MRShred makes MPen stacking particularly strong on him.

Alright, thanks Eld. I won't bother to ask for a how to on jungling him, since that's going to be a whole new can of worms to re-figure out once the changes go through (as well as most of the game's itemization, now that I think about it).

[Eldariel]

Alright, thanks Eld. I won't bother to ask for a how to on jungling him, since that's going to be a whole new can of worms to re-figure out once the changes go through (as well as most of the game's itemization, now that I think about it).

Well, itemization is very much the same for jungling (minus Doran's, plus Gold/10) but yeah, there are some details to it I suppose. And you can go Abyssal first and indeed, it can make sense against great many lane opponents. I personally prefer maxing Dark Wind for the pokes but of course if enemy can't interrupt Drain, feel free to profit.

[McDouggal]

Yeah, just did it again. The game definitely hangs in battle training if the nexus is destroyed before you do all the little fetch quests it gives you.

You don't have to solo Baron. I know that much...

[TechnOkami]

Well, itemization is very much the same for jungling (minus Doran's, plus Gold/10) but yeah, there are some details to it I suppose. And you can go Abyssal first and indeed, it can make sense against great many lane opponents. I personally prefer maxing Dark Wind for the pokes but of course if enemy can't interrupt Drain, feel free to profit.

It's funny, actually. Out of all his skills, whenever I play him, I end up maxing drain last. The utility of a poke and a minion slaying bouncy balloon coupled with that bloody amazing fear I find to be much better in lane. Sure you get sustain with his W, but often more than less I find myself unable to capitalize off of it enough. His Q is great to just stop jungle ganks in their path and, of course, E for easy harass and farm.

P.S.: I've never really figured out his jungle. At all.

[NotAEvilToaster]

Revolver first. The sustain with your ult, especially near creeps, is ridiculous. Then I usually go derpcap to defensive AP items. However, he's not REALLY that good mid now adays, and personally I feel he has trouble farming. Bot is so much more fun.

[ex cathedra]

incoming "aether disagrees with pretty much everyone" post, followed by actual original content! kinda.

Eh, I also play Support Zyra and I like LB better. Laning might be similar (it isn't, in my experience, very similar, actually), but mid/late game is entirely different.

Sona and Lulu both lack the whole 'mobility is my middle name' aspect of LB which I like. I also don't play support Lulu because I keep wanting to build bruiser Lulu whenever I play her...

Frankly, I don't think that mobility is very good on supports. You don't have any gold with which to take advantage of your mobility, and in most cases you shouldn't find it very difficult to keep up with your AD carry. And that's really all that you need to do.

Zyra has better damage, better CC, more utility, and a better lategame. Even if you're one of those people who take farm and kills as a support and plan on buying real items in every game, LeBlanc is suboptimal because she doesn't scale as well with gold as Zyra.

I like unconventional supports, and I've been known to play several, but it's very important that people don't trick themselves into believing that most of them are actually good. They aren't. Every champion in the game is capable of taking advantage of mistakes, and that's really all you need to win a game. At that point, it doesn't really matter if your non-traditional support is Nasus or Rammus or Mordekaiser or Cassiopeia. In my opinion, if you want to win consistently over a large amount of games you're much better off picking champions that are reliable, strong at all stages of the game, and proactive. Champions who make favorable situations (e.g. 0cs Zyra) rather than champions who take advantage of favorable situations (e.g. 0cs Rengar). When you have a trifecta of high-damage, high-range, high-utility supports like Lulu, Zyra, and Sona, it's really hard to dislodge them unless you offer something extraordinarily hard to reproduce. In most cases, that's going to be the "tons of free gold" supports, like Nunu and Taric.

Actually, with all this FOTM double AD and Solo AD carries mid coming from Fear, Quantic, and even Curse a little, I wouldn't be surprised to see the obvious followup: Double Tank Bot lanes. BlitzStar my friends? BlitzStar.

You forgot CLG.EU. Froggen's been playing mid Corki super often. Anyways, I just wanted to mention that... wat. That doesn't make any sense. Isn't the point of double AD to have a monstrously strong lategame? Why would you completely negate that by running a bottom lane with poor scaling? ADC Mid + double tank bottom is the same thing as a normal/"meta" bottom lane with a tank mid once laning breaks down. Why would a tank mid be good?

This is only moderately true. Kills ARE kills but certain comps really want the gold distributed towards heroes with the best late game. This is why ADs get gold and supports don't. ADs scale really well with gold.

So does Rengar...

Nitpick: I feel like Rengar's scaling is pretty mediocre, like that of most bruisers. Hence he and Irelia being midgame terrors but having less-than-obscene lategames. However, his base values are outrageous and so most of his gold scaling should work towards enabling you to actually use those base values. Generally, that comes in the form of defenses. It's not a huge difference, but I think it's important that we don't downplay how ludicrously ADs scale with gold by comparing them to bruisers.

Dominate is playing Rengar and Hecarim, balls-deep all-in heroes who... really don't want Gold/10 (Aegis is still OP though).

I think that Philo stone Hecarim is actually fine as long as your first completed item is Shurelya's (mad ganks, yo). Otherwise, yeah. I agree. Support-tank jungling is lame as ****.

I've occasionally considered Supporten (that is, Support Kennen), since he has good "bushcamp, harass enemy" potential and can do well with only a handful of core items.

I'm pretty sure that "bushcamp, harass enemy" isn't enough to actually make a champion good at supporting.

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

[Renegade Paladin]

You don't have to solo Baron. I know that much...

It also doesn't tell you to solo Baron.

[McDouggal]

Really? My brother wanted to learn how to play, so I helped him set up an account last week. After killing Dragon, it wanted him to go for baron.

[ChaosOS]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

You'd mostly have to redesign all CDR items for one since they're balanced around that you get one or two and call it good

Secondly, on certain characters CDR increases their damage crazy amounts, so you'd have to balance around 1 item vs. stacked item cases, and multiplicative scaling doesn't really fix that because the gains on certain characters from CDR are just so massive.

Oh and a lot of abilities are balanced around a cap of 40% CDR and probably the game engine would need a redesign if you could get past that.

[ex cathedra]

There would still be a soft-cap much in the way that Tenacity is soft-capped at around 65%, and most items would have 8%, 10%, or 12%-ish CDR. It could easily get out of hand if CDR values remained too high, and you could get like 7 sources of -15% CDR (which is like 68% CDR).