League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[sonofzeal]

I think part of the issue is that like you said, the person she's ulting and the person she's targeting aren't necessarily the same. Does your team have any members who lack the CC or damage to stop her? Well, that's probably the guy she's ulting, then, and if your ADC runs away (which is the only way they're going to live) then the rest of your team is in for a world of hurt in that teamfight.

(Also, holy god does her Devastating Blow do a silly amount of damage. I've been playing champs with significant armor and MR itemization and still taken more than 800 from it.)

EDIT: I'm also quite sure that she's less obnoxious in ranked or draft, since you can at least intentionally pick someone to punish her in lane or a comp that can handle her derping around in teamfights, but in blind pick you have much less for options.

I don't think draft actually makes a difference, because the list of people who can punish her in lane includes... uh, pretty much everybody. Not even just all bruisers though, no, pretty much everyone has tools to give her trouble. She doesn't have a single ability beyond melee range, so anyone with anything ranged at all can pretty much get free damage in on her. And she doesn't have ways back out if she uses her gapcloser to get in (and it's a pretty short gapcloser anyway). And, she's pretty much got the worst mana situation of any champion in the league - literally only one other champion has a smaller mana pool at any level, but Poppy's mana costs are universally high, so she really can't afford to be using her skills to overcome her inherent deficiencies in lane.

Her Q is a sack of bricks though, yeah. After a particularly long Dominion game I once calculated that, pre-resistances and against a high-health target, I was getting close to 2000 base damage. Late-game Poppy is an absolute beast. I mean what I said though, I seriously can't think of a champion who can't bully her in lane, or at least out-farm her substantially from relative safety. Whoever's letting Poppy get fed pretty much deserves what's going to happen to them.

[Reynard]

Garen can't punish with Poppy, because she starts with Cloth5+W against him and has 80+ armour at level 1. He will then lose any trade in which she get a Q off.

[PersonMan]

Garen can't punish with Poppy, because she starts with Cloth5+W against him and has 80+ armour at level 1. He will then lose any trade in which she get a Q off.

With a mediocre (read: mine) set of ArPen runes and with the ArPen mastery, that's down to ~60.

The problem with Poppy in this situation is that:

-Garen trades with his Q. Really, if you just run in and spin2win you're doing it wrong. Generally, Garen Qs, runs in, hits, runs out. If she uses her Q every time he uses his, she will find herself up OOM creek without a mana pot, as they say.

-Garen has better inherent sustain. He can just spam harass trades until she runs out of pots, avoid her (not a hard task against someone with ~50 less movespeed than you) for a while to regen, then attack. Or just say 'hey jungler, here's someone who is mega slow and has no wards. Gank plz'.

Garen can afford to lose trades, just because he can heal up afterwards. I myself have underestimated dat passive while playing him and been surprised by how much I heal after a fairly short time with it up. Poppy can...guzze potions. She won't have more lifesteal than Garen (without LS quints, which I don't even know of the existence of), so it's not like she beats him there, either.

If you want, we can try the lane in a 1v1, I'd be up for it. We'd have to come up with win conditions, though.

EDIT: Forgot some of the ArPen. It's a total of 19 flat and 10%. 55 Armor left, after that.

[Nadevoc]

I don't think draft actually makes a difference, because the list of people who can punish her in lane includes... uh, pretty much everybody. Not even just all bruisers though, no, pretty much everyone has tools to give her trouble.

Against a good Poppy player, this isn't true. When I went through a short Poppy phase awhile ago, I could at least go even in most lanes if not win them. E->Q is a really powerful trading tool, and W and your passive make their trade much less effective.

Really, only Teemo and folks with true damage (Olaf especially) were that big a threat.

Remember that Poppy isn't trying to win the lane. She's trying to survive through it with enough gold that she hits critical mass.

[Forrestfire]

It depresses me that nothing I want will be on sale in January

[Godskook]

(not a hard task against someone with ~50 less movespeed than you)

Unless Garen uses Q, that's not actually accurate. In your assumption that Garen's trying to heal, Poppy can free-farm, which puts her at max stacks of Paragon quite rapidly. That MS buff gives her 54.4 MS at rank 1, which outperforms boots. Sure, Garen can run away form Poppy if she starts cloth 5, but he needs Q to do it. Otherwise, she's faster than him, by a hair(4.4 MS)

Garen can afford to lose trades, just because he can heal up afterwards. I myself have underestimated dat passive while playing him and been surprised by how much I heal after a fairly short time with it up. Poppy can...guzze potions. She won't have more lifesteal than Garen (without LS quints, which I don't even know of the existence of), so it's not like she beats him there, either.

1.There are lifesteal quints.

2.You're also underestimating Poppy's passive, especially as she gets low. Sure she's guzzling potioins, but her passive makes it a lot more efficient for her to do that. Outside ignite, Garen really doesn't have a way to punch through it.

Finally, as Nadevoc said, Poppy isn't trying to 'win' the lane as much as survive it, since once she hits critical mass, she explodes people, regardless of how her laning phase went.

[ex cathedra]

Neither of them should have any relevant lifesteal whatsoever. Poppy runs HP regen, Armor, or Movespeed quints, Garen runs AD, ArPen, or Movespeed quints. Both want either a three tree mastery investment or the Defense capstone.

[Silverraptor]

Mario says I enjoy Rengar too much. I have to agree.

[NineThePuma]

Poppy is fun. Did you know, if you launch her E before leona's E dashes Leona, but after it connects, Leona will dash and then teleport back to where poppy pushed her?

[knightMARE]

Another advantage I've found recently while playing Poppy is that, due to no-one really playing her, people don't know what to do against her. This is probably due to me constantly queuing with my sub-30 friend though.

I remember seeing a list of the scariest things in LoL (pretty sure it was in one of these threads) and the top of the list was "Poppy with 6 Items"

[lord_khaine]

Anivia! Oh god, Anivia is my most played champ and I don't even own a skin for her because I consider all the current Anivia-skins to be downgrades on the default.

yeah, dam annoying there isnt anything like a regular phoenix skin for Anniva

[Eldariel]

Another advantage I've found recently while playing Poppy is that, due to no-one really playing her, people don't know what to do against her. This is probably due to me constantly queuing with my sub-30 friend though.

I remember seeing a list of the scariest things in LoL (pretty sure it was in one of these threads) and the top of the list was "Poppy with 6 Items"

Y'know, a fellow got himself to 2.2k by basically only spamming Poppy-games. It's not limited to sub-30 normals; and Poppy's passive makes her a deceptively good duelist.

[sonofzeal]

Against a good Poppy player, this isn't true. When I went through a short Poppy phase awhile ago, I could at least go even in most lanes if not win them. E->Q is a really powerful trading tool, and W and your passive make their trade much less effective.

Really, only Teemo and folks with true damage (Olaf especially) were that big a threat.

Remember that Poppy isn't trying to win the lane. She's trying to survive through it with enough gold that she hits critical mass.

Poppy certainly can survive laning, but what you're talking about isn't "winning", it's "not loosing too badly". Most champions can pull that off against soft-counters, and most champions can do so from more safety than Poppy.

That's what I meant - most champions, and especially most top laners, soft-counter Poppy. A few hard-counter her, like (imo) Teemo, Rumble, Olaf, Cho'Gath, Darius, and Warwick. Not exactly a short list. There's a few I think she can soft-counter; I've had excellent laning against most tanks in Twisted Treeline, especially Leona, and I feel reasonably confident I could do that again. But I do think most champions in the game soft-counter her in lane.

Y'know, a fellow got himself to 2.2k by basically only spamming Poppy-games. It's not limited to sub-30 normals; and Poppy's passive makes her a deceptively good duelist.

Spamhappy always comes up in these discussions. I think it's fair to say, though, that he's the best Poppy player in the world, and it's more a demonstration of just how far fanatical devotion to a single character can get you. The question is how far he might have gotten if he'd applied that same devotion to, say, Olaf or Irelia or Rumble.

But yeah, there's something to be said for total mastery of your chosen champ, especially when it's an uncommon choice that people aren't so certain how to respond to.

[ex cathedra]

Spamhappy always comes up in these discussions. I think it's fair to say, though, that he's the best Poppy player in the world, and it's more a demonstration of just how far fanatical devotion to a single character can get you. The question is how far he might have gotten if he'd applied that same devotion to, say, Olaf or Irelia or Rumble.

Zekent's alt actually got up to 2419 on Poppy, while his main surpassed 2700 during the course of S2. If anything, his devotion to Poppy cost him Elo. Between dodging games where he couldn't play Poppy, playing Poppy in sub-optimal lanes because he couldn't go top, and the stream-ghosting and counterpicking that comes with the SpamHappy account's notoriety, I'm sure that Zekent had a ton of issues. He would occasionally play Poppy on his 2700 main, so she's viable at pretty much any level of play.

[knightMARE]

I'm not familiar with this player, maybe I should look him up.
How does he generally build Poppy? I mean, AP Poppy is my go-to, but I've seen other people build her hybrid and AD, which I haven't had much experience with

[ex cathedra]

The player is Zekent, Absolute Legends (NA)'s top laner. He became well known because of SpamHappy, his alternate Poppy-only account.

His Poppy core is Triforce with situational AD and CDR items.

[Gauntlet]

I believe Spamhappy normally buuilds Poppy AD, with some GP5 into Trinity Force and Infinity Edge.

[Nadevoc]

Poppy certainly can survive laning, but what you're talking about isn't "winning", it's "not loosing too badly". Most champions can pull that off against soft-counters, and most champions can do so from more safety than Poppy.

That's what I meant - most champions, and especially most top laners, soft-counter Poppy. A few hard-counter her, like (imo) Teemo, Rumble, Olaf, Cho'Gath, Darius, and Warwick. Not exactly a short list. There's a few I think she can soft-counter; I've had excellent laning against most tanks in Twisted Treeline, especially Leona, and I feel reasonably confident I could do that again. But I do think most champions in the game soft-counter her in lane.

I... really don't see how you're saying WW counters Poppy. I'd gladly put Poppy against WW in lane. I also wouldn't mind going against Cho that much; it's not a great lane, but I wouldn't call it a hard-counter, either.

And I didn't say she won lane. In fact, I specifically said she usually doesn't. Except that, because she scales harder than any of the champs she'll be facing off against. Which means when you're Poppy, "not losing too badly" IS winning. Seriously, if Poppy came out of laning phase 0/1/0 with decent farm? She won that lane. I don't care that she didn't stomp her lane opponent. It's like how if Nasus comes out of lane with a massively farmed Q and no more than a death or two, he won lane. The fact is, what 'winning a lane' means is different for different champions. I tried to avoid this confusion last post by saying I 'went even in lane if not won them'. But the fact is, with Poppy, that's actually still winning.

She has a fair number of poor matchups, but only a few really screw her - Teemo, Olaf, Darius, and Rumble, I'd say.

[ex cathedra]

Seriously, if Poppy came out of laning phase 0/1/0 with decent farm? She won that lane. I don't care that she didn't stomp her lane opponent. It's like how if Nasus comes out of lane with a massively farmed Q and no more than a death or two, he won lane.

The difference is that one of these champions has a strong lategame and the other is a Wither machine.

[ChaosOS]

Riot put together a summary of the Preseason change!

http://competitive.na.leagueoflegend...reseason/intro

[Eldariel]

Riot put together a summary of the Preseason change!

http://competitive.na.leagueoflegend...reseason/intro

New DFG is crazy. 3k for 100 AP, 15% CDR and 15%+20% amplification damage. It seems possibly stronger than in its "OP" state.

Getting Blackfire Torch (without CDR) on other maps is certainly interesting. I think the item is gonna be a strong competitor.


New Lichbane does magic damage. Kind of a bummer, old Lichbane was really the only way for mages to itemize so they deal physical damage too against an Armor-stack team (while ADs have plenty of options to deal magic damage through autos though none of them were very good).

It also lost MR and the Move Speed bonus got gut while the cost didn't drop that much. And the damage it did dropped. Overall, seems like a nerf but with the new MPen system the Magic Damage is probably a longterm advantage so reserving judgment.

A lot more to learn. This'll be a few interesting months, especially with the new masteries (losing CDR from Defense-tree really hurts for Dominion play tho since so many bruisers rely on CDR and that was really the only easy way of getting it outside Frozen Heart and Randuin's 5%).

[Reynard]

It also lost MR and the Move Speed bonus got gut while the cost didn't drop that much. And the damage it did dropped. Overall, seems like a nerf but with the new MPen system the Magic Damage is probably a longterm advantage so reserving judgment.

Movement speed from items got heavily reduced across the board, even on tier 2 boots, it's not unique to LB. You need Alacrity-enchanted boots to break even with season 2 movespeeds with the same boots/runes.

[ex cathedra]

It also lost MR and the Move Speed bonus got gut while the cost didn't drop that much. And the damage it did dropped. Overall, seems like a nerf but with the new MPen system the Magic Damage is probably a longterm advantage so reserving judgment.

Base movespeed, the MS that gets multiplied via runes/masteries/items, was increased across the board, thus each percentage point of Movespeed bonus is worth more than it was before the change. Seeing %MS numbers tuned down is just to be expected.

[TechnOkami]

...we're all going to have to re-learn itemization o-o"

[ex cathedra]

...we're all going to have to re-learn itemization o-o"

Dunno. I like to think that most itemization is just common sense, and that once you understand why certain stats are valuable in certain combinations there's nothing more to learn. To be fair, lots of people have hang-ups like "item X is just bad" that aren't particularly well supported, but still. Stats still have roughly similar value, so if you understood why good S2 items were good you shouldn't have much trouble adjusting.

If you memorized item builds, though... you might have a problem for a couple of days until someone comes along to spoon-feed you knowledge.

[Reinboom]

Riot put together a summary of the Preseason change!

http://competitive.na.leagueoflegend...reseason/intro

And now the second big project I did is public.

This one is much more subtle though. It's not the site, it's a data service that's driving that site.

...Though, it's really only relevant if you're a bit techy.

[Lix Lorn]

And now the second big project I did is public.

This one is much more subtle though. It's not the site, it's a data service that's driving that site.

...Though, it's really only relevant if you're a bit techy.

Oh... wow, it's a lovely... service?
...
I got nothing.

[McDouggal]

Shen is so massively OP.

Also, is it just me, or does he counter Garen in lane thanks to his Q?

[sonofzeal]

I... really don't see how you're saying WW counters Poppy. I'd gladly put Poppy against WW in lane. I also wouldn't mind going against Cho that much; it's not a great lane, but I wouldn't call it a hard-counter, either.

WW's Q massively beats Poppy's in trades through the laning phase. It costs more mana, but he's got a larger mana pool and a vastly higher mana regen rate. That plus the lifesteal in his passive gives him better sustain, and hence much better lane pressure and zoning power. The last time I took Poppy laning against Warwick, I got utterly destroyed. That was a while ago, granted, and I didn't have masteries/runes worth a darn back then, but it was still one of the worst times I've ever had in lane.

[Reinboom]

Oh... wow, it's a lovely... service?
...
I got nothing.

Welllll, if you use something like Firebug (for Firefox) or use Chrome (with Chrome's developers tools)... you can go to console and do neat things like (on pages that use this service, like that preseason page):

Riot.DDragon.useModel('champion');
(Wait for champions.json to finish loading)

Riot.DDragon.useModel('champion').collect({key:'st ats.l1hp'});

You now have an ordered list of all champions sorted by their 1st level hit points.



Or you can make an htm file on your local computer (and open it in a browser) with:

<!doctype html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<script type="text/javascript">
	rg_force_manifest = 'http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/realms/s3.js';
</script>
</head>
<body style="padding-bottom:100px;">
	<div data-rg-name="champion" data-rg-id="Ahri" data-rg-aux="img=full"></div>
	<div data-rg-name="item" data-rg-id="3057" data-rg-aux="img=sprite size=tiny"></div>
	<script type="text/javascript" src="http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/dragonhead.js"></script>
</body>
</html>

And see some other fancy things.

I turned the LoL gameplay data in to a service, basically.