League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[sonofzeal]

Because I specify a means by which that expectation should be created, that does not seem to have been followed in either case.

"The appropriate response is to first create the expectation with explicit regulation, then start punishing people who fail to meet that expectation according to those regulations. It is not to create that expectation by punishing those people [first]." That's the core of my issue with this action.

I think the message has been clear that the regulations for pro players are, effectively, the same as for solo-queue. Banning from competitive play seems like a natural corollary of permabanning in general.

[Math_Mage]

I think the message has been clear that the regulations for pro players are, effectively, the same as for solo-queue. Banning from competitive play seems like a natural corollary of permabanning in general.

Not to mimic aethernox, but that's just, like, your opinion, man. After two and a half years of watching the most visible pros behave worse than the average solo queue player with little word or action from reds and very few consequences, I've found such messaging distinctly lacking. They seem to be working on that, and it's about damn time, but this definitely hasn't been one of Riot's strong points.

[Godskook]

Well, I'm glad to see they're not taking anyone by surprise. No real issues here, then.

The fact that IWD was warned(and previously punished) was part of Aether's original link, man. And it wasn't even just once.

Not to mimic aethernox, but that's just, like, your opinion, man. After two and a half years of watching the most visible pros behave worse than the average solo queue player with little word or action from reds and very few consequences, I've found such messaging distinctly lacking. They seem to be working on that, and it's about damn time, but this definitely hasn't been one of Riot's strong points.

But that's just, like, Riot's opinion too, and one that they've been far too vocal about for you to be surprised that its their opinion.

Or to put it another way: You can't prove that law doesn't exist by pointing to examples of crime. That's like saying 'dry' doesn't exist by pointing at an ocean.

[sonofzeal]

Off of the whole IWD thing....



I'd just worked out a Rumble item set I was loving when the patch hit. Defensive boots to counter lane, a quick Revolver, then Wooglet's, Abyssal, Rylai's (order depending on opponents).

Now I need to rethink things though. Can anyone recommend a good S3 item set?

[TFT]

Just uninstalled league until the end of the semester, and I probably won't be frequenting mumble anytime soon. See you guys after finals.

Saddest thing all semester.

[NineThePuma]

Ugh.

First game in the jungle post patch change.

Opted Skarner.

Completely and utterly sucked ass.

[Godskook]

I'd just worked out a Rumble item set I was loving when the patch hit. Defensive boots to counter lane, a quick Revolver, then Wooglet's, Abyssal, Rylai's (order depending on opponents).

Now I need to rethink things though. Can anyone recommend a good S3 item set?

All of that still works just fine. Consider Haunting Guise and its upgrade though, which gives a lot of punch for your purchase.

[TheShrike]

Off of the whole IWD thing....



I'd just worked out a Rumble item set I was loving when the patch hit. Defensive boots to counter lane, a quick Revolver, then Wooglet's, Abyssal, Rylai's (order depending on opponents).

Now I need to rethink things though. Can anyone recommend a good S3 item set?

I would consider Sorc boots if not in huge danger from lane, early Blackfire Torch for MPen (and percentage damage, but stacking Abyssal/Torch/Sorc MPen is REALLY REALLY GOOD) and maybe a Doran's Shield or two for survival. Revolver not needed, usually, as there is more skirmishing and mini-teamfights than SR-style laning, but Witchcap, Abyssal and Rylai's are still really good.

[Godskook]

Just uninstalled league until the end of the semester, and I probably won't be frequenting mumble anytime soon. See you guys after finals.

Saddest thing all semester.

That's like, two weeks right? Cause I don't think we can handle more than two weeks.

[Math_Mage]

The fact that IWD was warned(and previously punished) was part of Aether's original link, man. And it wasn't even just once.

Warned and punished in Tribunal, yes. It's the fact that measures were taken outside of Tribunal, from the eSports division to Dignitas, that satisfy me, and that were not previously stated.

But that's just, like, Riot's opinion too, and one that they've been far too vocal about for you to be surprised that its their opinion.

Or to put it another way: You can't prove that law doesn't exist by pointing to examples of crime. That's like saying 'dry' doesn't exist by pointing at an ocean.

Vocal about the fact that pro players face the same Tribunal and player behavior judgments that others face, yes. Vocal about the expectation that pro players will receive official professional consequences for Tribunal actions? No.

If you are aware of lots of prior instances where Riot has been vocal in that fashion, feel free to cite some examples. All I can do, logically speaking, is contrast the constant well-documented misbehavior of streaming pros with the relative lack of prior consequences. I am not expected to prove a negative; the burden of proof is all on you. So by all means, show me where Riot has consistently voiced the expectation that pros will be punished as pros for their misbehavior as solo queue players.

And if you can't--hell, even if you can--do me a favor and stop treating your opinions like foregone conclusions, and me like a moron who can't see the obvious. You are not the man arguing that 'dry' exists, or that law exists, and the smugness of those comparisons ticks me off.

[TheShrike]

So I just spectated a game because it said on my friend's list that Penguinizer was playing Nidalee, and I was curious if he was playing AD or AP. When I get in game, I see he's on Lux. "Oh well", I thought, "He must have traded with someone." Nope. No Nidalee in game at all.

[McDouggal]

Ugh.

First game in the jungle post patch change.

Opted Skarner.

Completely and utterly sucked ass.

I'm too scared to go into the jungle :(

Well, let me rephrase that-I'm scared to be a jungler. I'm looking at the jungle changes and realizing that Nunu and Fiddles are probably the best junglers I have right now. (After I spent 6300 on Lee Sin, cuz I wanted the best jungler...)

[PEACH]

Ugh.

First game in the jungle post patch change.

Opted Skarner.

Completely and utterly sucked ass.

Jungle Skarner is completely fine. In fact, the rebalanced camps even made him more cruise control-ish; with my masteries and runes you no longer need to switch AA targets on the wolf camp to get them all to die at the same time (and thus clear the fastest, if not the best on your HP), and the same goes for golems. The extra HP doesn't seem to matter too much because Skarner already clears well and it's essentially mitigated by Machete and the new masteries. Plus you get ridiculous amounts more gold and EXP than you did before, if not as much as way way back when a good double clear could get you level six. If you go wolves blue wraiths golems red wolves wraiths golems (smiting at the blue and the second wolves unless you're using a defensive page and might have a full power smite on red), you go back with level 5 or close to it and enough money for boots and a soulstone, which is nice.

Combine that with the amazing new itemization options for Skarner, mostly that I'm pretty sure a core of Wraith, Frozen Fist, and Mercs is amazing right now, since Frozen Fist or Icy Gauntlet or Moderately Cold Glove or whatever they renamed it to has amazing stats for Skarner and the slow stacks with his Q and lets him keep fast people from peeling early and Mercs, CDR, and spell vamp are never unwanted, and you get a very happy Skarner.

I'm too scared to go into the jungle :(

Well, let me rephrase that-I'm scared to be a jungler. I'm looking at the jungle changes and realizing that Nunu and Fiddles are probably the best junglers I have right now. (After I spent 6300 on Lee Sin, cuz I wanted the best jungler...)

Jungle changes really didn't affect much negatively. AoE junglers still clear well and I'm pretty certain that while it's dependant on your AoE to autoattack ratio, most junglers weren't doing enough AoE that they're actually gonna take significantly more damage; they'll spend a little longer on the camp but it's not like single target magically clears the camp instantly now. Using Skarner as an example of somebody who probably has the highest AoE damage compared to his single target damage (or close to it; Phoenix Udyr might win here), he's still clearing the small mobs at the same time as the big mob in non buff camps, which means that any jungler based on AoE will still have all their AoE damage relevant throughout any camp that isn't a buff camp.

Most junglers probably need a Machete and some potions to clear as effectively as before, but that isn't really bad because Machete builds into a lot of cool things and only minimally lowers your ability to be aggressive compared to longsword/doran's. With the general movespeed buffs and nerfs to boots speed, I would say that junglers even have better aggressive opportunities against lane because (excepting, like, boots start Lee Sin for level 2 ganks) you're going to be more mobile relative to a boots buying counterpart and the increased mobility through long jungle/gank routes helps a ton for pre-six ganks.

If you're worried about Lee Sin specifically, he's still kickass. You'll be fine. The best junglers are probably still the best, the marginal junglers are probably still marginal, and I am honestly having trouble, with the increased camp rewards and just how good Machete is, figuring out who really got hurt by this change. The 10% butcher on Machete basically counteracts all the HP buffs given to the jungle, which leaves very little room for the jungle to truly be harder.

[TheShrike]

According to Stonewall and Saintvicious, Fiddle is a bit better, Warwick is a little bit better, Hecarim/Naut/Maokai are much weaker, Amumu is fine, Lee Sin is still godmode and Olaf is wtf insanely good.

Speaking to Olaf for a moment, his clear speed did not go down at all, but his health retention went up due to having more potions. This makes him even scarier in terms of jungle fights than he was, and his ganks are strong as well. Olaf also benefits from itemization options, as he's one of those characters who doesn't need to build damage to deal damage, but if you build damage he scales well with it. To be honest though, not hugely likely any of the Machete items. I mean, they're all decent but none of them stare me in the face and say "I am awesome, grab me immediately" like they do with some junglers.

[Penguinizer]

So I just spectated a game because it said on my friend's list that Penguinizer was playing Nidalee, and I was curious if he was playing AD or AP. When I get in game, I see he's on Lux. "Oh well", I thought, "He must have traded with someone." Nope. No Nidalee in game at all.

I think that might have been since the first character I picked was Nid'. Of course since 3 other people proceeded to pick top laners after me I switched to Lux. I think that might have been what caused the issue.

Anyways, so far, my opinion of the new masteries is mainly positive. Can't really say for the new items. They all seemed rather niche or just not useful that I didn't bother with them. Being able to start flask+faerie charm+potion is nice though.

Also, on another thought, what do people think of the new UI? The new shop layout is pretty good but I think it's got too much space that could be used. Same with the score screen. I don't really like the large borders, the skill level-up button could also be made smaller in my opinion. The fact that it shows the level of the skill on the icon is nice though.

[sonofzeal]

All of that still works just fine. Consider Haunting Guise and its upgrade though, which gives a lot of punch for your purchase.

It's a good thought, but Revolver is cheaper and gives more AP, and I find I've done better since I went with it. Blackfire Torch is definitely on the list, but my priority is tankiness and AP - Wooglet's gives nice armor, Abyssal gives nice MR, Rylai's gives nice HP, and all three boost my offensive capabilities synergistically too. BFT is my top pick for the next item though. I was kind of wondering if repricings messed things up, or any of the S3 items were applicable, but otherwise I'm pretty happy with this build.

[McDouggal]

So, as a replacement for HoG's lost GP10 slot on tank Shen, I'm running Kage's pick.

Is this a good idea, or should I try to CS even harder (I seem to be doing insanely well (for me) CS-wise with Shen for whatever reason-although it might be the fact that I use my Q to farm so much)? Is there a new GP10 that I haven't heard of that would work better?

[Winthur]

According to Saintvicious, Fiddle is new OP, Warwick sucks as usual, Hecarim/Naut/Maokai are much weaker, Amumu is fine, Lee Sin is still godmode and Olaf is wtf insanely good while Mundo is even more broken, Jax and Gangplank are stronger.

Fixed.
I'm sad that they didn't actually fix WW. :C

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Even starting howl+machete? I had hoped that would work...

In other news, Shaco continues to do just fine.

[NineThePuma]

I've found that a Sightstone actually subs in okay. It doesn't build into anything, but it's actually pretty useful for warding, letting you ward both river and tribrush with 6 minutes between each back for wards, AND you can hold onto it for a long while since wards never actually stop being relevant to the game.

[toasty]

Fixed.
I'm sad that they didn't actually fix WW. :C

I love how Riot specifically used warwick as an example of "newly viable" junglers, and then SV comes around and says, "If anything, Warwick is worse now," on stream.

Riot makes "sustain" more viable, but Warwick still sucks and Mundo became better.

Also: apparently SotD on Mundo is funny. I haven't tried it myself.

[ex cathedra]

I think the message has been clear that the regulations for pro players are, effectively, the same as for solo-queue. Banning from competitive play seems like a natural corollary of permabanning in general.

He was never poorly behaved in professional settings, though. Permaban effects pros and normal players equally, was deserved. ESports ban wasn't and still isn't a properly established policy, is in all likelyhood overly harsh, and only applies to IWD.

Cracking down on the part of Riot: good move
Doing it in this manner: bad move.

[PersonMan]

Even starting howl+machete? I had hoped that would work...

Well, at my level of play Junglewick still works. Walk into lane, apply red buff. Who needs gap closers?

They also didn't ward. I want people to ward more so Oracle's isn't a waste of gold...

[Psyborg]

CLG Locodoco leaves the team, and the country. CLG.NA is having open tryouts for starting support and two registered subs. Solomid news post here.

EDIT: Also, is it just me, or does the new SotD have potentially terrifying (if highly lategame-oriented) synergy with Rengar? SotD active + Q + empowered Q + autoattack is 10.8*AD + 300 physical damage, assuming Infinity Edge + crit dmg mastery, which with the somewhat reckless but not totally impossible IE/SotD/BT/LW build adds up to somewhere in the low-to-mid four thousands range.

(Yes, I do know the bonus damage doesn't crit. Calculations: Three autoattack crits at 260%AD ea. = 7.8*AD; Q at 1*AD + 150; empowered Q at 2*AD + 150. Total 10.8*AD + 300, not counting W or E.)

[toasty]

EDIT: Also, is it just me, or does the new SotD have potentially terrifying (if highly lategame-oriented) synergy with Rengar? SotD active + Q + empowered Q + autoattack is 10.8*AD + 300 physical damage, assuming Infinity Edge + crit dmg mastery, which with the somewhat reckless but not totally impossible IE/SotD/BT/LW build adds up to somewhere in the low-to-mid four thousands range.=

No one will do this because you have to build IE/BT/LW. Why do that when you can build Spirit Visage and Frozen Mallet (Or Warmogs I guess, it doesn't seem terrible) and never die?

[NineThePuma]

Anyone who doesn't build at least SOME damage on Rengar is an idiot, IMO.

Bruta, Phage, and Hexdrinker are all decent options that provide stats Rengar enjoys without hurting his sustain.

Also, am I the only one that thinks swapping Maw from building out of a pickaxe to building out of a Vamp Scepter might redeem the item somewhat?

[Psyborg]

No one will do this because you have to build IE/BT/LW. Why do that when you can build Spirit Visage and Frozen Mallet (Or Warmogs I guess, it doesn't seem terrible) and never die?

Because having two Teemos worth of burst in half a second out of stealth is amusing?

I'm not saying it's actually good or will ever be seen competitively, but the sheer amount of damage seems an order of magnitude more absurd than the numbers we're used to seeing out of noobstomp builds on other champions.

(...)

On further calculations, it appears that the damage is broadly similar to that of a LeBlanc in the high 700s-low800s AP range, and could presumably be matched at ~650 or even less with the new DFG. So it's less ridiculous than I'd initially thought.

Also, am I the only one that thinks swapping Maw from building out of a pickaxe to building out of a Vamp Scepter might redeem the item somewhat?

That would really nice. So would making the shield scale with something- preferably %max health. So would either buffing that increased damage at low HP passive so it's noticeable, or removing it and either reducing the item's cost or increasing its flat stats, because currently only Olaf/Mundo/Tryndamere can really make much use of it and it's barely relevant even on them.

Or maybe- if changing it to the Vamp Scepter build- have its passive increase your lifesteal as your health goes down. "Your lifesteal from items is increased by 1% for every 2% missing health" would be kind of awesome; the "from items" caveat is to make it less ridiculous on Olaf and AD Sion.

Hmm. Or you could go the route of making it a Big Item (TM) and have it build out of Hexdrinker + Bilgewater Cutlass, with commensurately increased price and stats. No, you couldn't, because then you'd be trying to show passive and active cooldowns on one little tiny item icon and it wouldn't work. Maybe Hexdrinker + Vamp Scepter + Brutalizer?

Eh, the smaller tweaks are probably better.

[toasty]

Anyone who doesn't build at least SOME damage on Rengar is an idiot, IMO.

Bruta, Phage, and Hexdrinker are all decent options that provide stats Rengar enjoys without hurting his sustain.

Also, am I the only one that thinks swapping Maw from building out of a pickaxe to building out of a Vamp Scepter might redeem the item somewhat?

GG Caomei is an idiot. Guess WE is overrated.

[NineThePuma]

I don't know who that is, but I'll take the bait:

Rengar as a champion has extremely good scaling with gold offensively AND defensively. I will continue to question anyone who doesn't build at least some damage on him based not only on the fact that his scaling is so good, but on the fact that post nerf his base values aren't very good anymore and what he offers is done much better by different champions.

[toasty]

I don't know who that is

He made 50k (along with the other members of Team WE.Gigabyte, a Chinese LoL team) last weekend at IPL5. Him and Clearlove were MVP during a Set vs CLG.Eu where their rengar/cho'gath backdoor combo was... really strong.

Caomei, Darien, Stanley, and a few other players all proved that you don't need to build any damage on Rengar and still destroy people with base stats. His damage is just too good. Stanley and Caomei in particular liked to do a Spirit Visage/Warmogs build and focused on stacking Health and CDR over other stats, primarily because of how his W works.

You... you don't really need damage on Rengar.

edit: Again, I'm not talking about my own experience (though I have used their build to great success), but rather I am talking about the experience of 3 of the best players in the world, who all play League of Legends for a living. Again: Caomei in particular played Rengar like a complete boss at IPL5.