New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 3 of 16 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 453
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    In eternity.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Care to post this guide on the Min/Max Boards?
    Quote Originally Posted by GPuzzle View Post
    And I do agree that the right answer to the magic/mundane problem is to make everyone badass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If you're of a philosophical bent, the powergamer is a great example of Heidegger's modern technological man, who treats a game's mechanics as a standing reserve of undifferentiated resources that are to be used for his goals.
    My Complete Tome of Battle Maneuver/Stance/Class Overhaul

    Arseplomancy = Fanatic Tarrasque!

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    Care to post this guide on the Min/Max Boards?
    It's not my guide in the first place, but I'll do that once it gets more complete. It'd be annoying to have to update both of them simultaneously.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Someone mentioned Arcane Trickster, but that isn't the only dual-progression wizard/sneak available.

    Spellwarp Sniper has the same requirement of a 3rd level spell, but does not require mage hand, and only requires one level of rogue. The feat Insightful plus Eldritch Blast should be sufficient for Unseen Seer, although Advanced Learning probably does nothing for you. As a crazy option, Psion 3/Warlock 1 is sufficient to enter Cerebremancer.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    two things.

    First, Dragonmarks as an entry into Arcane Trickster. I know it isn't a great option, but if you are using a Cha+ race and are going heavy into saves then they can be decent. Aberrant Dragonmarks can qualify races not covered by house marks.


    Second. Petals have a lot of the goodies of a pixie but less LA and RHD.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    Someone mentioned Arcane Trickster, but that isn't the only dual-progression wizard/sneak available.

    Spellwarp Sniper has the same requirement of a 3rd level spell, but does not require mage hand, and only requires one level of rogue. The feat Insightful plus Eldritch Blast should be sufficient for Unseen Seer, although Advanced Learning probably does nothing for you. As a crazy option, Psion 3/Warlock 1 is sufficient to enter Cerebremancer.
    Okay, so I know Arcane Trickster, Spellwarp Sniper. I'll see about getting complete methods for entry added for all of the sneaky/caster PrCs.

    Whats the source for the Chiurgeon

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    two things.

    First, Dragonmarks as an entry into Arcane Trickster. I know it isn't a great option, but if you are using a Cha+ race and are going heavy into saves then they can be decent. Aberrant Dragonmarks can qualify races not covered by house marks.


    Second. Petals have a lot of the goodies of a pixie but less LA and RHD.
    Added Abberant Dragonmark to the list, same with petals. Is there a list of sources I can add to the snippet? Is there a handbook for Dragon Marks already?

    I might added Marrulurk. 2d6 SA, but has 3 Monstrous Humanoid HD. Still, will be better than rogue for a Glaive or Clawlock.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-28 at 01:44 PM.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Okay, so I know Arcane Trickster, Spellwarp Sniper. I'll see about getting complete methods for entry added for all of the sneaky/caster PrCs.

    Whats the source for the Chiurgeon
    Dragonmarked.

    Added Abberant Dragonmark to the list, same with petals. Is there a list of sources I can add to the snippet? Is there a handbook for Dragon Marks already?

    I might added Marrulurk. 2d6 SA, but has 3 Monstrous Humanoid HD. Still, will be better than rogue for a Glaive or Clawlock.
    Unfortunately, that doesn't really allow Warlocks to Qualify. From Complete Arcane, Page 71.

    Requirements for specific level of spells to be cast are not met. However, requirements for a specific spell can be, if there's an invocation which duplicates this.

    For example, requiring a spell of 3rd level... it can't do that, because it doesn't do spells. Requiring the ability to cast Darkness, however, it would qualify for with the Darkness invocation. The first is a generalization, casting a spell of 3rd level, without specifying one in particular. The second is a very specific request, the Darkness spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Dragonmarked.



    Unfortunately, that doesn't really allow Warlocks to Qualify. From Complete Arcane, Page 71.

    Requirements for specific level of spells to be cast are not met. However, requirements for a specific spell can be, if there's an invocation which duplicates this.

    For example, requiring a spell of 3rd level... it can't do that, because it doesn't do spells. Requiring the ability to cast Darkness, however, it would qualify for with the Darkness invocation. The first is a generalization, casting a spell of 3rd level, without specifying one in particular. The second is a very specific request, the Darkness spell.

    Okay. I'll work on fixing this. I'll added a more... apt version of the PrC wording to the Handbook. Then, I'll see if I can gather more PrCs for the list.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Added Abberant Dragonmark to the list, same with petals. Is there a list of sources I can add to the snippet? Is there a handbook for Dragon Marks already?
    Here you go. Dragonmarked handbook.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    Sweet, that means I won't have to write anything. Awesome. Thanks.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Theoboldi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    One thing I'd like to nitpick is that the DC of dark discorporations nauseating ability actually does scale. The DC should be either 18 plus CHA, as usual for warlock invocations or 10 plus 1/2 HD plus CON, like the description of the swarm subtype states. I'm not sure which of these measurements takes precedence with this invocation, but I still have no idea why you would think that the DC is only 12.
    Always look for white text. Always.
    That's how you do it! Have a cookie!
    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    You don't win people over by beating them with facts until they surrender; at best all you've got is a conversion under duress, and at worst you've actively made an enemy of your position.

    You don't convince by proving someone wrong. You convince by showing them a better way to be right. The difference may seem subtle or semantic, but I assure you it matters a lot.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    One thing I'd like to nitpick is that the DC of dark discorporations nauseating ability actually does scale. The DC should be either 18 plus CHA, as usual for warlock invocations or 10 plus 1/2 HD plus CON, like the description of the swarm subtype states. I'm not sure which of these measurements takes precedence with this invocation, but I still have no idea why you would think that the DC is only 12.
    Hehe, not my handbook...

    Um... yeah, I think 18+Cha sounds correct.

    Still crap, through.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-29 at 01:31 PM.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Hehe, not my handbook...

    Um... yeah, I think 18+Cha sounds correct.

    Still crap, through.
    The same base DC as any other 8th level spell. Considering a Warlock can get upwards of 36 Charisma at that level, that's a DC of 31. Respectable enough.Moreso if you take Ability Focus and several of the other means of increasing DC's. Granted, it won't match stuff like Tainted Sorcerer or Red Wizard shenanigans, but then again... nothing really does.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Unfortunately, that doesn't really allow Warlocks to Qualify. From Complete Arcane, Page 71.

    Requirements for specific level of spells to be cast are not met. However, requirements for a specific spell can be, if there's an invocation which duplicates this.

    For example, requiring a spell of 3rd level... it can't do that, because it doesn't do spells. Requiring the ability to cast Darkness, however, it would qualify for with the Darkness invocation. The first is a generalization, casting a spell of 3rd level, without specifying one in particular. The second is a very specific request, the Darkness spell.
    Actually--and this is the most commonly held form of argument that I have been able to find, and is found rather commonly--the specific wording of Arcane Trickster (regarding being able to cast at least one) makes it distinct from the wording that you are referring to (and that Complete Arcane refers to for most caster PrCs), regarding being able to cast "spells of X level", because you need the ability to cast only one (a specific requirement), as opposed to the ability to cast them (a general requirement). In other words, being able to cast a single spell of third level through any means possible qualifies you for Arcane Trickster, and since any one spell will qualify (as opposed to a general ability to cast), it is functionally a requirement for a specific spell by way of quantity.

    The most common manifestation of this argument is the argument that a Lesser Aasimar can qualify for Arcane Trickster as soon as they meet the skill and Sneak Attack requirements using the feat Spell Hand, because they gain the ability to cast mage hand via the Spell Hand feat, and the ability to cast at least one third-level spell via their Daylight racial SLA. This does not entail the ability to cast spells of X level--which they of course do not have--but it does entail the ability to cast at least one spell of X level, because that is basically what it is, per the specific spell requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    One thing I'd like to nitpick is that the DC of dark discorporations nauseating ability actually does scale. The DC should be either 18 plus CHA, as usual for warlock invocations or 10 plus 1/2 HD plus CON, like the description of the swarm subtype states. I'm not sure which of these measurements takes precedence with this invocation, but I still have no idea why you would think that the DC is only 12.
    The default rule for all the Warlock's swarm invocations (and one of the things that makes them all so awful) is that the swarm's attack only ever requires the Fort save of a default swarm--and this DC never scales. I think when I wrote up the dark invocations, I overgeneralized based on the fact that all the other DCs are of a typical swarm of their type (except for Sudden Swarm, which states that the save DC for the poison, but not the nauseated condition, scale off of Warlock level), and there is no mention (just as there is for all the others) that the swarm doesn't use the default Fort save of a bat swarm (which is the case for all the others), or give a save DC of its own, without accounting for the fact that you are the swarm. By default, this makes the DC 10 + 1/2 HD + CON modifier (the standard save DC for the Distraction ability), and makes it one of the rare abilities that has a save DC that doesn't scale off of CHA, for those Warlocks that dumped the stat.
    Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-12-29 at 05:35 PM.
    Homebrew!
    5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses

    Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLD
    Show

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Sgt. Cookie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    For a campaign I might be joining on this board, I created an invocation using Bard, that might be useful here.

    Feel free to pick holes, but as far as I am aware, it should work fine.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Bardic Invoker

    This is a build, involving the Warlock and Prestige Bard, that gives you full Bard abilities, whilst giving you the At-Will aspect of the Warlock.

    Race: Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or any other race that can access Human Paragon.

    Ability Score layout: Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Charisma: 16

    Nothing new here, it is after all, a Bard.

    Class Layout:Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Warlock 2/Human Paragon 2/Prestige Bard 15

    Specifics:
    Human Paragon: What you're here for is Adaptive Learning (Perform). This makes perform a class skill for classes, which we really rather need.

    You need to choose Perform, obviously, as well as any Knowledge skill. The other eight skills are yours for the choosing.

    Wizard: We go Wizard for a very important reason, Warlock alone cannot qualify for Prestige Bard. So, we need a Wizard dip to give us the spell casting ability to enter.

    Warlock 2: Obvious, this gives Prestige Bard the class we will advance.

    Human Paragon (Again): Honestly? You can drop this for two more levels of Warlock, I stuck them in because, personally, I find an extra Bonus Feat and a +2 to any ability score to be rather nice.

    Since picking up these last two levels of Human Paragon can also increase Warlock invocations/Eldritch Blast, the choice is yours.

    Prestige Bard: Just because Warlock doesn't qualify for Prestige Bard, that doesn't mean we can't have it advance our Warlock casting.

    Apply any and all standard Bard OP tricks as you desire.


    So there you have it, any questions?
    Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar

    Ponytar by Dirtytabs

    Quote Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
    Chaotic neutral. Might rob you blind. Might save your life. Might do both.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    For a campaign I might be joining on this board, I created an invocation using Bard, that might be useful here.

    Feel free to pick holes, but as far as I am aware, it should work fine.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Bardic Invoker

    This is a build, involving the Warlock and Prestige Bard, that gives you full Bard abilities, whilst giving you the At-Will aspect of the Warlock.

    Race: Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or any other race that can access Human Paragon.

    Ability Score layout: Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Charisma: 16

    Nothing new here, it is after all, a Bard.

    Class Layout:Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Warlock 2/Human Paragon 2/Prestige Bard 15

    Specifics:
    Human Paragon: What you're here for is Adaptive Learning (Perform). This makes perform a class skill for classes, which we really rather need.

    You need to choose Perform, obviously, as well as any Knowledge skill. The other eight skills are yours for the choosing.

    Wizard: We go Wizard for a very important reason, Warlock alone cannot qualify for Prestige Bard. So, we need a Wizard dip to give us the spell casting ability to enter.

    Warlock 2: Obvious, this gives Prestige Bard the class we will advance.

    Human Paragon (Again): Honestly? You can drop this for two more levels of Warlock, I stuck them in because, personally, I find an extra Bonus Feat and a +2 to any ability score to be rather nice.

    Since picking up these last two levels of Human Paragon can also increase Warlock invocations/Eldritch Blast, the choice is yours.

    Prestige Bard: Just because Warlock doesn't qualify for Prestige Bard, that doesn't mean we can't have it advance our Warlock casting.

    Apply any and all standard Bard OP tricks as you desire.


    So there you have it, any questions?
    Dammit, I was going to do this for a tournament I was setting up for.

    I'll add prestige Bard to the list of PrCs. Singing won't interfere with Invocations, right?

    Also, Seeker of Song 2 would do wonders if you pick up DFI.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Sgt. Cookie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    I don't think singing would interfere. Invocations only have somatic components, so as long as your hands are free, I don't see why it would.
    Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar

    Ponytar by Dirtytabs

    Quote Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
    Chaotic neutral. Might rob you blind. Might save your life. Might do both.

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    I don't think singing would interfere. Invocations only have somatic components, so as long as your hands are free, I don't see why it would.
    Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Actually--and this is the most commonly held form of argument that I have been able to find, and is found rather commonly--the specific wording of Arcane Trickster (regarding being able to cast at least one) makes it distinct from the wording that you are referring to (and that Complete Arcane refers to for most caster PrCs), regarding being able to cast "spells of X level", because you need the ability to cast only one (a specific requirement), as opposed to the ability to cast them (a general requirement). In other words, being able to cast a single spell of third level through any means possible qualifies you for Arcane Trickster, and since any one spell will qualify (as opposed to a general ability to cast), it is functionally a requirement for a specific spell by way of quantity.
    Oh, we're sorry, but that's incorrect. But don't worry, we have a lovely consolation price waiting for you in the back.

    You can meet qualifications for "Needing to cast X spell", for example "Needs to be able to cast Darkness" or "Needs to be able to cast Charm Person". That's it. You can't qualify for 'cast a spell of X level' because you DO NOT CAST SPELLS, much less spells of a specific level.

    'Cast a spell of 3rd level or higher' is NOT a specific spell, therefore you cannot meet its qualifications with an invocation.

    The feat Spell Hand does meet the qualifications for being able to cast Mage Hand, because that is a specific spell requirement. However, the clause 'must be able to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher' is NOT met by invocations.

    The most common manifestation of this argument is the argument that a Lesser Aasimar can qualify for Arcane Trickster as soon as they meet the skill and Sneak Attack requirements using the feat Spell Hand, because they gain the ability to cast mage hand via the Spell Hand feat, and the ability to cast at least one third-level spell via their Daylight racial SLA. This does not entail the ability to cast spells of X level--which they of course do not have--but it does entail the ability to cast at least one spell of X level, because that is basically what it is, per the specific spell requirements.
    And that's incorrect as well.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2012-12-30 at 12:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Oh, we're sorry, but that's incorrect. But don't worry, we have a lovely consolation price waiting for you in the back.

    You can meet qualifications for "Needing to cast X spell", for example "Needs to be able to cast Darkness" or "Needs to be able to cast Charm Person". That's it. You can't qualify for 'cast a spell of X level' because you DO NOT CAST SPELLS, much less spells of a specific level.

    'Cast a spell of 3rd level or higher' is NOT a specific spell, therefore you cannot meet its qualifications with an invocation.

    The feat Spell Hand does meet the qualifications for being able to cast Mage Hand, because that is a specific spell requirement. However, the clause 'must be able to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher' is NOT met by invocations.

    And that's incorrect as well.
    It is absolutely not incorrect. This is the exact same foundation that The Wish (one half of The Wish and The Word) is built off of, with the following note explicitly written into the build itself:

    (To get into IoSV, you need five Abjurations, with one at 4th level. Combined with the Warlock Invocations that are Abjuations effects like Devour Magic. Voracious Dispelling, and Entropic Warding and spell gained from (which count as spells for meeting PrC requirements per the Complete Arcane pg 70) and spells from Magical Training off the Wizard list for more abjurations, while Precocious Apprentice provides the needed ability to cast 2nd level spells.)
    Specific does NOT mean named. The Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil requires you be, and this is verbatim from Complete Arcane, "able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher."

    Now, let's look at the invocation Voracious Dispelling, also from Complete Arcane:

    Voracious Dispelling
    Lesser; 4th
    You can use dispel magic as the spell. Yada yada, not-OCR text.
    Emphasis mine. Note that the invocation has a spell level, and that level is 4. It is not 3, but it does pass through 3 to get to 4, subverting every Monty Python joke ever to be made on this subject.

    Note that it uses dispel magic as the spell. That means we have to look closely at dispel magic, so if you will indulge me...

    Dispel Magic
    Abjuration
    Spell text, mostly technical hooplah.
    Emphasis mine. What we have here, now, as defined by the above parameters, is a fourth-level abjuration. No, it is not a spell, but it allows us to fulfill a singular, specific spell requirement, which "abjuration spell of 4th level or higher" totally is.

    Because Warlock invocations have both spell levels (listed in the invocation) and schools (listed in the spell they imitate, for all spells that are cast "as the spell"), they can be used to fulfill spell requirements for singular spells (which basically means "any spell they are imitating for which they fulfill the requirements, any time that a quantifiable number of spells is called for", on a one-to-one basis). In the case of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Loremaster, and very few other PrCs, there are two requirements needing to be filled--a spell level and a school--and the invocation fulfills both. You don't even need to wade into the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" argument, because it merely asks that you imitate a quantifiable number of spells--and, with enough invocations, you fulfill that as well.

    With all this in mind, Arcane Trickster is actually even easier to qualify for than this, because it only has one requirement--a spell level--that only one spell needs to fulfill. And every lesser, greater, and dark invocation fulfills that requirement, by having a spell level of 3rd or higher. No, it is not imitating a specific spell identically, as Charm does for Mindbender, but it is fulfilling the requirements of a single spell necessary to enter the PrC--the requirements just don't name an exact spell by name. Warlock will never let you cast "spells of X level"--because this does refer to the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" distinction--but it will let you cast "one spell of X level"--because Warlock invocations do, in fact, have spell levels, and invocations and other SLAs are allowed to act as equivalent spells where specific requirements are concerned (and the listed quantity does make it a specific requirement).

    The only way that a Warlock could qualify for Initiative of the Sevenfold Veil (as per The Wish) and not for Arcane Trickster is if fulfilling two out of two specific prerequisites for IotSV's spells (spell level and school) is specific enough, but fulfilling one out of one specific requirements for AT's (spell level) is somehow too general--even though one of the prerequisites is the same.

    Otherwise, either The Wish is an invalid build, and all understandings of optimization that led up to and followed from it invalid, and the collective minds that brought you the Warlock Information Compilation are all unilaterally wrong on this matter, or maybe, just maybe, you need to drop the condescension and discuss this on even terms.
    Homebrew!
    5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses

    Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLD
    Show

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Sgt. Cookie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    @Snowbluff: In your Prestige Bard entry, you list Sorcerer as a potential dip. I used Wizard because a Sorcerer only gets two first level spells at level 1. Wizard 1 is much more optimal, because it means you loose less Warlock caster levels.
    Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar

    Ponytar by Dirtytabs

    Quote Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
    Chaotic neutral. Might rob you blind. Might save your life. Might do both.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    @Snowbluff: In your Prestige Bard entry, you list Sorcerer as a potential dip. I used Wizard because a Sorcerer only gets two first level spells at level 1. Wizard 1 is much more optimal, because it means you loose less Warlock caster levels.
    Bleck. W/e. Someone will figure it out. I am thinking in a 2 level dips. It is not because I am a computer. I did a lot of fighter and then ToB earlier in my career.

    Added the Epic Feat section.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2013-01-03 at 05:10 PM.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Morcleon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Floating in the void

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Ah, epic stuff.

    Dark Transient also gives greater plane shift, but it's still not enough to bump it up to blue.

    Morpheme Savant should be blue for social focused warlocks, if only for the +(Cha x 2) to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.

    Souleater Incarnate goes up to low black if used in a heavily incarnum focused game. Still meh.

    You forgot Epic Extra Invocation. Goes from red to [color=Blue]blue[/color,] depending on which invocation you take with it. Useful for meeting prereqs for other epic feats, though.
    Avatar of Furude Setsuna, by Telasi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mephit View Post
    Don't worry, I like my characters the way I like my coffee: Strong, but with no cheese in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akagi
    Don't hesitate to tell the people you care about the feelings you have for them, because they may not be there tomorrow.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Theoboldi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    On the epic feats, I think you should note that despite it being really good, Shadowmaster requires some of the most useless invocations you can possibly take.
    It is still very much worth it, but it's better when you already start in epic, since before that point you'll have wasted 4 of your invocations on really subpar choices. Not enough to bump it down to blue, but it should be noted.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2013-01-04 at 01:41 PM.
    Always look for white text. Always.
    That's how you do it! Have a cookie!
    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    You don't win people over by beating them with facts until they surrender; at best all you've got is a conversion under duress, and at worst you've actively made an enemy of your position.

    You don't convince by proving someone wrong. You convince by showing them a better way to be right. The difference may seem subtle or semantic, but I assure you it matters a lot.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    It is absolutely not incorrect. This is the exact same foundation that The Wish (one half of The Wish and The Word) is built off of, with the following note explicitly written into the build itself:



    Specific does NOT mean named. The Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil requires you be, and this is verbatim from Complete Arcane, "able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher."
    Mmmm... nope, not seeing it. I've never recognized the legitimacy of that particular version of the Wish and the Word for this very reason. I didn't agree back then, I still don't.

    Now, let's look at the invocation Voracious Dispelling, also from Complete Arcane:



    Emphasis mine. Note that the invocation has a spell level, and that level is 4. It is not 3, but it does pass through 3 to get to 4, subverting every Monty Python joke ever to be made on this subject.

    Note that it uses dispel magic as the spell. That means we have to look closely at dispel magic, so if you will indulge me...



    Emphasis mine. What we have here, now, as defined by the above parameters, is a fourth-level abjuration. No, it is not a spell, but it allows us to fulfill a singular, specific spell requirement, which "abjuration spell of 4th level or higher" totally is.
    Again, wrong. It is effectively a 4th level effect for purposes where the spell level of an effect interacts with other effects, for example how it interacts with the Globe of Invulnerability line.

    Now, it would be great if a PrC required you to be able to cast the spell Dispel Magic, but not a 4th level Abjuration spell, because IT IS NOT A SPELL, much less an Aburation spell, it merely duplicates the effects.

    Because Warlock invocations have both spell levels (listed in the invocation) and schools (listed in the spell they imitate, for all spells that are cast "as the spell"), they can be used to fulfill spell requirements for singular spells (which basically means "any spell they are imitating for which they fulfill the requirements, any time that a quantifiable number of spells is called for", on a one-to-one basis). In the case of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Loremaster, and very few other PrCs, there are two requirements needing to be filled--a spell level and a school--and the invocation fulfills both. You don't even need to wade into the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" argument, because it merely asks that you imitate a quantifiable number of spells--and, with enough invocations, you fulfill that as well.
    Spells which the Warlock DOES NOT CAST. You can replicate casting a specific spell by being able to use an SLA which duplicates it. This doesn't mean you are casting a spell, and cannot qualify for prerequisites which call for such.

    With all this in mind, Arcane Trickster is actually even easier to qualify for than this, because it only has one requirement--a spell level--that only one spell needs to fulfill. And every lesser, greater, and dark invocation fulfills that requirement, by having a spell level of 3rd or higher. No, it is not imitating a specific spell identically, as Charm does for Mindbender, but it is fulfilling the requirements of a single spell necessary to enter the PrC--the requirements just don't name an exact spell by name. Warlock will never let you cast "spells of X level"--because this does refer to the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" distinction--but it will let you cast "one spell of X level"--because Warlock invocations do, in fact, have spell levels, and invocations and other SLAs are allowed to act as equivalent spells where specific requirements are concerned (and the listed quantity does make it a specific requirement).

    The only way that a Warlock could qualify for Initiative of the Sevenfold Veil (as per The Wish) and not for Arcane Trickster is if fulfilling two out of two specific prerequisites for IotSV's spells (spell level and school) is specific enough, but fulfilling one out of one specific requirements for AT's (spell level) is somehow too general--even though one of the prerequisites is the same.
    And again, none of this is correct.

    Otherwise, either The Wish is an invalid build, and all understandings of optimization that led up to and followed from it invalid, and the collective minds that brought you the Warlock Information Compilation are all unilaterally wrong on this matter, or maybe, just maybe, you need to drop the condescension and discuss this on even terms.
    You are correct, it is an invalid build, at least that particular version. There's a reason I walked away from that particular discussion back when it was first being done. I didn't agree with it back then, I still don't.

    You are employing circular logic. "If we assume that we can employ it in this fashion, then obviously we can, and therefore my argument is correct" when, in fact, the entire supposition is faulty to begin with.

    Wishing it worked that way for the purposes of CharOp does not make it so.

    Granted, it wouldn't be a bad house rule to employ, but it would be just that... a house rule.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcleon View Post
    Ah, epic stuff.

    Dark Transient also gives greater plane shift, but it's still not enough to bump it up to blue.

    Morpheme Savant should be blue for social focused warlocks, if only for the +(Cha x 2) to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.

    Souleater Incarnate goes up to low black if used in a heavily incarnum focused game. Still meh.

    You forgot Epic Extra Invocation. Goes from red to [color=Blue]blue[/color,] depending on which invocation you take with it. Useful for meeting prereqs for other epic feats, though.
    Blech blech blech. Add this to my list of things, and repost it, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    On the epic feats, I think you should note that despite it being really good, Shadowmaster requires some of the most useless invocations you can possibly take.
    It is still very much worth it, but it's better when you already start in epic, since before that point you'll have wasted 4 of your invocations on really subpar choices. Not enough to bump it down to blue, but it should be noted.
    They are not horrible feats... Beshadowed and Darkness have their uses, but having to take Dark Discorporation isn't a problem. I'll note prerequisites in the epic sections.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Theoboldi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    They are not horrible feats... Beshadowed and Darkness have their uses, but having to take Dark Discorporation isn't a problem. I'll note prerequisites in the epic sections.
    Says the one who put all of them down as red.

    Yes I know you didn't rate them.
    Always look for white text. Always.
    That's how you do it! Have a cookie!
    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    You don't win people over by beating them with facts until they surrender; at best all you've got is a conversion under duress, and at worst you've actively made an enemy of your position.

    You don't convince by proving someone wrong. You convince by showing them a better way to be right. The difference may seem subtle or semantic, but I assure you it matters a lot.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    Says the one who put all of them down as red.

    Yes I know you didn't rate them.
    Just a heads up, I meant invocations. I did rate the epic feats.

    Added feats from DotU.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    I am assuming that homebrew is allowed? If it is, I shall hunt up an older WotC board thread dedicated to adding things to the Warlock. Not everything it has is the best, but it really ups the ability of a blastlock, and adds fun feats and items to the mix.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    I am assuming that homebrew is allowed? If it is, I shall hunt up an older WotC board thread dedicated to adding things to the Warlock. Not everything it has is the best, but it really ups the ability of a blastlock, and adds fun feats and items to the mix.
    It's not. I firmly belief that the only advice a handbook can reasonably give is RAW from official material.

    I might add a homebrew section later, but I see little point if there is already a handbook or thread already dedicated to it.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Fair enough. The Warlock Circle II stopped updating in.... I believe 2007 or 2008, I'd have to check. That said, I should find the link again for posterity. When all is said and done, I do love the idea of providing a guide for the warlock. It's one of my favourite arcane classes.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •