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2012-12-28, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Care to post this guide on the Min/Max Boards?
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2012-12-28, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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2012-12-28, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Someone mentioned Arcane Trickster, but that isn't the only dual-progression wizard/sneak available.
Spellwarp Sniper has the same requirement of a 3rd level spell, but does not require mage hand, and only requires one level of rogue. The feat Insightful plus Eldritch Blast should be sufficient for Unseen Seer, although Advanced Learning probably does nothing for you. As a crazy option, Psion 3/Warlock 1 is sufficient to enter Cerebremancer.
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2012-12-28, 05:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
two things.
First, Dragonmarks as an entry into Arcane Trickster. I know it isn't a great option, but if you are using a Cha+ race and are going heavy into saves then they can be decent. Aberrant Dragonmarks can qualify races not covered by house marks.
Second. Petals have a lot of the goodies of a pixie but less LA and RHD.
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2012-12-28, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Okay, so I know Arcane Trickster, Spellwarp Sniper. I'll see about getting complete methods for entry added for all of the sneaky/caster PrCs.
Whats the source for the Chiurgeon
Added Abberant Dragonmark to the list, same with petals. Is there a list of sources I can add to the snippet? Is there a handbook for Dragon Marks already?
I might added Marrulurk. 2d6 SA, but has 3 Monstrous Humanoid HD. Still, will be better than rogue for a Glaive or Clawlock.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-28 at 01:44 PM.
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2012-12-28, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Dragonmarked.
Added Abberant Dragonmark to the list, same with petals. Is there a list of sources I can add to the snippet? Is there a handbook for Dragon Marks already?
I might added Marrulurk. 2d6 SA, but has 3 Monstrous Humanoid HD. Still, will be better than rogue for a Glaive or Clawlock.
Requirements for specific level of spells to be cast are not met. However, requirements for a specific spell can be, if there's an invocation which duplicates this.
For example, requiring a spell of 3rd level... it can't do that, because it doesn't do spells. Requiring the ability to cast Darkness, however, it would qualify for with the Darkness invocation. The first is a generalization, casting a spell of 3rd level, without specifying one in particular. The second is a very specific request, the Darkness spell.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2012-12-28, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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2012-12-28, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Here you go. Dragonmarked handbook.
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2012-12-28, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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2012-12-29, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
One thing I'd like to nitpick is that the DC of dark discorporations nauseating ability actually does scale. The DC should be either 18 plus CHA, as usual for warlock invocations or 10 plus 1/2 HD plus CON, like the description of the swarm subtype states. I'm not sure which of these measurements takes precedence with this invocation, but I still have no idea why you would think that the DC is only 12.
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2012-12-29, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-29 at 01:31 PM.
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2012-12-29, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
The same base DC as any other 8th level spell. Considering a Warlock can get upwards of 36 Charisma at that level, that's a DC of 31. Respectable enough.Moreso if you take Ability Focus and several of the other means of increasing DC's. Granted, it won't match stuff like Tainted Sorcerer or Red Wizard shenanigans, but then again... nothing really does.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2012-12-29, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Actually--and this is the most commonly held form of argument that I have been able to find, and is found rather commonly--the specific wording of Arcane Trickster (regarding being able to cast at least one) makes it distinct from the wording that you are referring to (and that Complete Arcane refers to for most caster PrCs), regarding being able to cast "spells of X level", because you need the ability to cast only one (a specific requirement), as opposed to the ability to cast them (a general requirement). In other words, being able to cast a single spell of third level through any means possible qualifies you for Arcane Trickster, and since any one spell will qualify (as opposed to a general ability to cast), it is functionally a requirement for a specific spell by way of quantity.
The most common manifestation of this argument is the argument that a Lesser Aasimar can qualify for Arcane Trickster as soon as they meet the skill and Sneak Attack requirements using the feat Spell Hand, because they gain the ability to cast mage hand via the Spell Hand feat, and the ability to cast at least one third-level spell via their Daylight racial SLA. This does not entail the ability to cast spells of X level--which they of course do not have--but it does entail the ability to cast at least one spell of X level, because that is basically what it is, per the specific spell requirements.
The default rule for all the Warlock's swarm invocations (and one of the things that makes them all so awful) is that the swarm's attack only ever requires the Fort save of a default swarm--and this DC never scales. I think when I wrote up the dark invocations, I overgeneralized based on the fact that all the other DCs are of a typical swarm of their type (except for Sudden Swarm, which states that the save DC for the poison, but not the nauseated condition, scale off of Warlock level), and there is no mention (just as there is for all the others) that the swarm doesn't use the default Fort save of a bat swarm (which is the case for all the others), or give a save DC of its own, without accounting for the fact that you are the swarm. By default, this makes the DC 10 + 1/2 HD + CON modifier (the standard save DC for the Distraction ability), and makes it one of the rare abilities that has a save DC that doesn't scale off of CHA, for those Warlocks that dumped the stat.Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-12-29 at 05:35 PM.
Homebrew!
5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses
Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLDBase Classes: Blood Mage
Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
Miscellany: Permanency Support
Resources:
Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List
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2012-12-30, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
For a campaign I might be joining on this board, I created an invocation using Bard, that might be useful here.
Feel free to pick holes, but as far as I am aware, it should work fine.
SpoilerBardic Invoker
This is a build, involving the Warlock and Prestige Bard, that gives you full Bard abilities, whilst giving you the At-Will aspect of the Warlock.
Race: Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or any other race that can access Human Paragon.
Ability Score layout: Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Charisma: 16
Nothing new here, it is after all, a Bard.
Class Layout:Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Warlock 2/Human Paragon 2/Prestige Bard 15
Specifics:
Human Paragon: What you're here for is Adaptive Learning (Perform). This makes perform a class skill for classes, which we really rather need.
You need to choose Perform, obviously, as well as any Knowledge skill. The other eight skills are yours for the choosing.
Wizard: We go Wizard for a very important reason, Warlock alone cannot qualify for Prestige Bard. So, we need a Wizard dip to give us the spell casting ability to enter.
Warlock 2: Obvious, this gives Prestige Bard the class we will advance.
Human Paragon (Again): Honestly? You can drop this for two more levels of Warlock, I stuck them in because, personally, I find an extra Bonus Feat and a +2 to any ability score to be rather nice.
Since picking up these last two levels of Human Paragon can also increase Warlock invocations/Eldritch Blast, the choice is yours.
Prestige Bard: Just because Warlock doesn't qualify for Prestige Bard, that doesn't mean we can't have it advance our Warlock casting.
Apply any and all standard Bard OP tricks as you desire.
So there you have it, any questions?Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-12-30, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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2012-12-30, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
I don't think singing would interfere. Invocations only have somatic components, so as long as your hands are free, I don't see why it would.
Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-12-30, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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2012-12-30, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Oh, we're sorry, but that's incorrect. But don't worry, we have a lovely consolation price waiting for you in the back.
You can meet qualifications for "Needing to cast X spell", for example "Needs to be able to cast Darkness" or "Needs to be able to cast Charm Person". That's it. You can't qualify for 'cast a spell of X level' because you DO NOT CAST SPELLS, much less spells of a specific level.
'Cast a spell of 3rd level or higher' is NOT a specific spell, therefore you cannot meet its qualifications with an invocation.
The feat Spell Hand does meet the qualifications for being able to cast Mage Hand, because that is a specific spell requirement. However, the clause 'must be able to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher' is NOT met by invocations.
The most common manifestation of this argument is the argument that a Lesser Aasimar can qualify for Arcane Trickster as soon as they meet the skill and Sneak Attack requirements using the feat Spell Hand, because they gain the ability to cast mage hand via the Spell Hand feat, and the ability to cast at least one third-level spell via their Daylight racial SLA. This does not entail the ability to cast spells of X level--which they of course do not have--but it does entail the ability to cast at least one spell of X level, because that is basically what it is, per the specific spell requirements.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2012-12-30 at 12:57 PM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2012-12-30, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
It is absolutely not incorrect. This is the exact same foundation that The Wish (one half of The Wish and The Word) is built off of, with the following note explicitly written into the build itself:
(To get into IoSV, you need five Abjurations, with one at 4th level. Combined with the Warlock Invocations that are Abjuations effects like Devour Magic. Voracious Dispelling, and Entropic Warding and spell gained from (which count as spells for meeting PrC requirements per the Complete Arcane pg 70) and spells from Magical Training off the Wizard list for more abjurations, while Precocious Apprentice provides the needed ability to cast 2nd level spells.)
Now, let's look at the invocation Voracious Dispelling, also from Complete Arcane:
Voracious Dispelling
Lesser; 4th
You can use dispel magic as the spell. Yada yada, not-OCR text.
Note that it uses dispel magic as the spell. That means we have to look closely at dispel magic, so if you will indulge me...
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Spell text, mostly technical hooplah.
Because Warlock invocations have both spell levels (listed in the invocation) and schools (listed in the spell they imitate, for all spells that are cast "as the spell"), they can be used to fulfill spell requirements for singular spells (which basically means "any spell they are imitating for which they fulfill the requirements, any time that a quantifiable number of spells is called for", on a one-to-one basis). In the case of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Loremaster, and very few other PrCs, there are two requirements needing to be filled--a spell level and a school--and the invocation fulfills both. You don't even need to wade into the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" argument, because it merely asks that you imitate a quantifiable number of spells--and, with enough invocations, you fulfill that as well.
With all this in mind, Arcane Trickster is actually even easier to qualify for than this, because it only has one requirement--a spell level--that only one spell needs to fulfill. And every lesser, greater, and dark invocation fulfills that requirement, by having a spell level of 3rd or higher. No, it is not imitating a specific spell identically, as Charm does for Mindbender, but it is fulfilling the requirements of a single spell necessary to enter the PrC--the requirements just don't name an exact spell by name. Warlock will never let you cast "spells of X level"--because this does refer to the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" distinction--but it will let you cast "one spell of X level"--because Warlock invocations do, in fact, have spell levels, and invocations and other SLAs are allowed to act as equivalent spells where specific requirements are concerned (and the listed quantity does make it a specific requirement).
The only way that a Warlock could qualify for Initiative of the Sevenfold Veil (as per The Wish) and not for Arcane Trickster is if fulfilling two out of two specific prerequisites for IotSV's spells (spell level and school) is specific enough, but fulfilling one out of one specific requirements for AT's (spell level) is somehow too general--even though one of the prerequisites is the same.
Otherwise, either The Wish is an invalid build, and all understandings of optimization that led up to and followed from it invalid, and the collective minds that brought you the Warlock Information Compilation are all unilaterally wrong on this matter, or maybe, just maybe, you need to drop the condescension and discuss this on even terms.Homebrew!
5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses
Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLDBase Classes: Blood Mage
Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
Miscellany: Permanency Support
Resources:
Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List
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2012-12-30, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
@Snowbluff: In your Prestige Bard entry, you list Sorcerer as a potential dip. I used Wizard because a Sorcerer only gets two first level spells at level 1. Wizard 1 is much more optimal, because it means you loose less Warlock caster levels.
Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-12-30, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Last edited by Snowbluff; 2013-01-03 at 05:10 PM.
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2013-01-04, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Ah, epic stuff.
Dark Transient also gives greater plane shift, but it's still not enough to bump it up to blue.
Morpheme Savant should be blue for social focused warlocks, if only for the +(Cha x 2) to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Souleater Incarnate goes up to low black if used in a heavily incarnum focused game. Still meh.
You forgot Epic Extra Invocation. Goes from red to [color=Blue]blue[/color,] depending on which invocation you take with it. Useful for meeting prereqs for other epic feats, though.Avatar of Furude Setsuna, by Telasi.Originally Posted by Akagi
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2013-01-04, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
On the epic feats, I think you should note that despite it being really good, Shadowmaster requires some of the most useless invocations you can possibly take.
It is still very much worth it, but it's better when you already start in epic, since before that point you'll have wasted 4 of your invocations on really subpar choices. Not enough to bump it down to blue, but it should be noted.
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2013-01-04, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Mmmm... nope, not seeing it. I've never recognized the legitimacy of that particular version of the Wish and the Word for this very reason. I didn't agree back then, I still don't.
Now, let's look at the invocation Voracious Dispelling, also from Complete Arcane:
Emphasis mine. Note that the invocation has a spell level, and that level is 4. It is not 3, but it does pass through 3 to get to 4, subverting every Monty Python joke ever to be made on this subject.
Note that it uses dispel magic as the spell. That means we have to look closely at dispel magic, so if you will indulge me...
Emphasis mine. What we have here, now, as defined by the above parameters, is a fourth-level abjuration. No, it is not a spell, but it allows us to fulfill a singular, specific spell requirement, which "abjuration spell of 4th level or higher" totally is.
Now, it would be great if a PrC required you to be able to cast the spell Dispel Magic, but not a 4th level Abjuration spell, because IT IS NOT A SPELL, much less an Aburation spell, it merely duplicates the effects.
Because Warlock invocations have both spell levels (listed in the invocation) and schools (listed in the spell they imitate, for all spells that are cast "as the spell"), they can be used to fulfill spell requirements for singular spells (which basically means "any spell they are imitating for which they fulfill the requirements, any time that a quantifiable number of spells is called for", on a one-to-one basis). In the case of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Loremaster, and very few other PrCs, there are two requirements needing to be filled--a spell level and a school--and the invocation fulfills both. You don't even need to wade into the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" argument, because it merely asks that you imitate a quantifiable number of spells--and, with enough invocations, you fulfill that as well.
With all this in mind, Arcane Trickster is actually even easier to qualify for than this, because it only has one requirement--a spell level--that only one spell needs to fulfill. And every lesser, greater, and dark invocation fulfills that requirement, by having a spell level of 3rd or higher. No, it is not imitating a specific spell identically, as Charm does for Mindbender, but it is fulfilling the requirements of a single spell necessary to enter the PrC--the requirements just don't name an exact spell by name. Warlock will never let you cast "spells of X level"--because this does refer to the binary "can cast spells/cannot cast spells" distinction--but it will let you cast "one spell of X level"--because Warlock invocations do, in fact, have spell levels, and invocations and other SLAs are allowed to act as equivalent spells where specific requirements are concerned (and the listed quantity does make it a specific requirement).
The only way that a Warlock could qualify for Initiative of the Sevenfold Veil (as per The Wish) and not for Arcane Trickster is if fulfilling two out of two specific prerequisites for IotSV's spells (spell level and school) is specific enough, but fulfilling one out of one specific requirements for AT's (spell level) is somehow too general--even though one of the prerequisites is the same.
Otherwise, either The Wish is an invalid build, and all understandings of optimization that led up to and followed from it invalid, and the collective minds that brought you the Warlock Information Compilation are all unilaterally wrong on this matter, or maybe, just maybe, you need to drop the condescension and discuss this on even terms.
You are employing circular logic. "If we assume that we can employ it in this fashion, then obviously we can, and therefore my argument is correct" when, in fact, the entire supposition is faulty to begin with.
Wishing it worked that way for the purposes of CharOp does not make it so.
Granted, it wouldn't be a bad house rule to employ, but it would be just that... a house rule.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2013-01-04, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Blech blech blech. Add this to my list of things, and repost it, please.
They are not horrible feats... Beshadowed and Darkness have their uses, but having to take Dark Discorporation isn't a problem. I'll note prerequisites in the epic sections.Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2013-01-04, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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2013-01-04, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
I am assuming that homebrew is allowed? If it is, I shall hunt up an older WotC board thread dedicated to adding things to the Warlock. Not everything it has is the best, but it really ups the ability of a blastlock, and adds fun feats and items to the mix.
My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.
Generation 9
The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.
Complete Homebrew:
Soulless Template
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2013-01-04, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
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Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]
Fair enough. The Warlock Circle II stopped updating in.... I believe 2007 or 2008, I'd have to check. That said, I should find the link again for posterity. When all is said and done, I do love the idea of providing a guide for the warlock. It's one of my favourite arcane classes.
My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.
Generation 9
The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.
Complete Homebrew:
Soulless Template