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2013-01-21, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-21, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Clearly he's gonna need a song too.
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-22, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Hi
Im making a planar druid thinking druid5/planar shepard 10, my goal is not to break the game with planar bubble but the prc fits the campain like a glove!
We have an upcomming abyssal invasion and pelor has already sent in one of his agents to help out. (A cleric) and im thinking that either pelor decides to help out more or some other deity joins the fight to restore the balance.
My problem is that im a novice when it comes to the planes, im thinking this guy needs to be neutral good, and needs to be attuned to a plane like that. But wich planes is good and where do I find info, on what beasts/outsiders/elementals is tied to this plane?
I have tried 3.5 planar handbook and the planar shepard handbook gives some suggestions to the planes, but its not sufficiant for me to get it...and i cant find the scources to his info, so i can learn more on my own.
Yes it would be cool to be able to turn into an angel, with the syrania plane, but so far I can only find 3 types, what els can I turn into if i use this plane, because im pretty sure a Solar will be unavaliable for me since we wont go into epic levels, so is there better planes for me with good lower level creatures?
Please help!Last edited by Ketiara; 2013-01-22 at 04:51 AM.
Spoiler: Arcivus Luscient
HP: 204/204
AC: 22
Stats: 25, 10, 18, 10, 12, 20
Passive Perception: 11
Saving Throws: Str 8 (13), Dex 1 (6), Con 11 (16), Wis 8 (13), Cha 11 (17)
Aura of Protection +5 to all Saves for everyone within 30ft
Aura of Courage/Devotion immunity to Frighten/Charm for everyone within 30ft
Always under effect of Protection to Evil and Good
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2013-01-22, 05:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
(I must be spending too much time on Simple RAW question; the impulse to number my questions in bold is overwhelming.)
Not that I'm going to use this answer in my campaigns, but I'm still curious about the official version: canonically, what are the goals, methods and motivations of the Eladrins specifically, and where do they overlap with or diverge from the wishes of Celestials in general? Since I'd assume ambushing and murdering Archons is normally frowned on, how do Eladrins tend to deal with conflicts of interest where their wishes differ from those of other involved Good entities (including the other three exemplar races, as well as lesser hosts such as Asuras and Couatl)?
Okay, Demons vs. Devils. The official story is that the Abyss has numbers on its side, and Baator uses more sophisticated tactics and (relative) cooperation among its various forces to routinely "300" the Abyssal horde. But from my admittedly limited understanding of the game's mechanics, I see no evidence that this should happen. There are more varieties of demons than devils, the Abyss is "more infinite" than the Nine Hells (at least 666 infinite layers vs. 9 infinite layers; this might just mean the demons have further to 'walk, but it also seems to suggest they should be more numerous in general, and thus also should give rise to more spellcasters with appropriate magic to transport vast armies), and in most cases when I try to compare any Devil with its corresponding Demon, the latter seems to be nastier (the obvious examples being CR 1 Lemure vs. CR 2 Dretch and CR 16 Pit Fiend vs. CR 18 Balor). So am I missing something huge here (detailed population demographics, information on common diabolic battle tactics, ways in which the demons self-sabotage and lose battles where they had overwhelming advantages out the gate, etc etc), or is it plainly impossible to simulate the informed paradigm of the Blood War using the game's available mechanics?
Why do the Yugoloths seem to have most of the fixation on plague out of the various fiends? Three of the five or six Altraloths I could find on Wikipedia are named after diseases (Anthraxus, Bubonix and something with a C). It may just be me, but pestilence seems like it ought to qualify as more chaotic; I would expect it to be a huge theme of Demons rather than their neutral counterparts.
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2013-01-22, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
@ Ketiara:
You might want to start a new thread for your question. I think this thread is more about fluff than crunch.
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2013-01-22, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
I would say that it's probably because there are more high-level Devils than Pit Fiends. Each alignment gets its fair share of petitioners sent to the plane, so the Devils have a higher quantity of high-level soldiers and more efficient ways to use them. As we know from game mechanics, one high-level monster can easily take on a number of lower-level monsters with little issue. Devils also build more machines of war and fortifications than do the Tanar-ri, so held ground usually stays with the Devils.
Then again, I'm not afroakuma, so take this with a grain of salt. He probably has a page in a 2nd edition sourcebook that I've never heard of bookmarked with an explanation for why the Devils haven't lost yet.
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2013-01-22, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Actually, mathematically, the two are equally infinite; multiplying infinity by 9 or 666 just results in (the same sort of) infinity. If you're interested in why this is the case, I suggest you look up why whole numbers (0, 1, 2, 3...) are equally-infinite with integers (..., -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...). Intuitively you would think that there are twice as many integers, but the reality is that when dealing with the infinite, there are always more.
To be "more infinite" you'd need to have infinitely more elements. For instance, the real numbers (i.e. a continuous number line) is "more infinite" than the integers, because there are infinitely many real numbers between any two integers. If you're interested in this, look up cardinal numbers.Last edited by Answerer; 2013-01-22 at 08:52 AM.
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2013-01-22, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Technically, it's not been confirmed that the Abyss has 666 layers, as most of the explorers who travel there die horribly...
white text is the bestest you might want to look for it
DeviantART
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2013-01-22, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Well it has a layer that's called the 666th (or at least the 663rd or so). We don't know whether every layer is filled in; even if they once were, some may have been collapsed somehow. And of course I wouldn't put it past the Demons to number the places randomly for treacherous purposes....
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2013-01-22, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Manual of the Planes.
Yes it would be cool to be able to turn into an angel, with the syrania plane, but so far I can only find 3 types
Eladrins are generally motivated by the desire to inspire something; they don't shape, direct or command, they just stir in a bit of potential. To this end, they walk, disguised, on the Prime, providing aid to mortals and playing the role of muse. Eladrins are also the most passionate of Good's warriors and send far more champions rushing headlong into the Lower Planes than any of the other celestial races.
Since I'd assume ambushing and murdering Archons is normally frowned on, how do Eladrins tend to deal with conflicts of interest where their wishes differ from those of other involved Good entities (including the other three exemplar races, as well as lesser hosts such as Asuras and Couatl)?
Okay, Demons vs. Devils. The official story is that the Abyss has numbers on its side, and Baator uses more sophisticated tactics and (relative) cooperation among its various forces to routinely "300" the Abyssal horde. But from my admittedly limited understanding of the game's mechanics, I see no evidence that this should happen. There are more varieties of demons than devils, the Abyss is "more infinite" than the Nine Hells (at least 666 infinite layers vs. 9 infinite layers; this might just mean the demons have further to 'walk, but it also seems to suggest they should be more numerous in general, and thus also should give rise to more spellcasters with appropriate magic to transport vast armies), and in most cases when I try to compare any Devil with its corresponding Demon, the latter seems to be nastier (the obvious examples being CR 1 Lemure vs. CR 2 Dretch and CR 16 Pit Fiend vs. CR 18 Balor). So am I missing something huge here (detailed population demographics, information on common diabolic battle tactics, ways in which the demons self-sabotage and lose battles where they had overwhelming advantages out the gate, etc etc), or is it plainly impossible to simulate the informed paradigm of the Blood War using the game's available mechanics?
Do you see where I'm going with this yet? In the Abyss, the more powerful the demon, the more likely it is that that demon wants nothing to do with the Blood War. They send minions and underlings, and only jump into a skirmish when they want to let off steam and a raid into another layer just won't cut it. The main lines of the Abyss aren't dretches either; they're manes, who are just as lowly as lemures. Manes and lemures can't actually injure one another except on a critical hit (I'd let this one slide) without magical support, but lemures have more HP.
Next lines are nupperibos vs. dretches. Nupperibos are slower to act and have no DR, but they deal enough damage to chop through a dretch's DR 80% of the time, they have fast healing, and they have more hit points. They also have an aura of fear that scatters the dretches and makes them less effective.
Third line: merregons vs. rutterkins. Now, a rutterkin is a much more durable infantry troop than its predecessors, and outperforms the merregon on HP (by quite a margin) and damage, though it's tied in attack and worse in AC. This, however, is where Hell turns everything around.
You see, merregons are known as "legion devils" for a reason: they're horrifically effective in numbers. Merregons are difficult to destroy with AoE attacks, can coordinate their attacks to hit things that should be way out of their weight range, and live or die as a group, not as individuals. Battalions of merregons are the essence of the baatezu's numerical hold; supported by bloodbag imps (and yes, support is another factor), a battalion can keep fighting long after 90% of its members should have died.
The organization of the baatezu is indeed relevant, as is the chaos of the tanar'ri, because the baatezu commit strong troops in numbers to the Blood War, while the tanar'ri require enforcers to squeeze temporary participation out of most types. Were it not for the war breeds of the tanar'ri (bar-lgura and bulezau, chiefly), the Blood War might very well swing in the baatezu's favor.
Why do the Yugoloths seem to have most of the fixation on plague out of the various fiends? Three of the five or six Altraloths I could find on Wikipedia are named after diseases (Anthraxus, Bubonix and something with a C). It may just be me, but pestilence seems like it ought to qualify as more chaotic; I would expect it to be a huge theme of Demons rather than their neutral counterparts.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-22, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
@ Altraloths: Neat! I'll definitely play that up in my game; being powerful as a punishment is hilariously appropriate for an NE faction
@ Blood war: So basically, the Demons would totally win except they're not actually interested in trying. Fittingly Chaotic, I suppose. Idle speculation...if the Queen of Chaos or her consort came back, you think that would change matters at all?
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2013-01-22, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Oh that happens constantly. Yagnoloths are given authority above their own capabilities specifically so that they will risk engendering hate by letting the power go to their heads. A yagnoloth who can't stop taking advantage of his station will be killed by underlings and replaced.
@ Blood war: So basically, the Demons would totally win except they're not actually interested in trying. Fittingly Chaotic, I suppose.
Idle speculation...if the Queen of Chaos or her consort came back, you think that would change matters at all?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-22, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
What can you tell us about the Queen of Chaos, Miska, and the Wind Dukes of Aaqa?
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2013-01-22, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
What, exactly is Asmodeus's plan? What does he want to accomplish with his reserves, the misdirection and rumors, and his endless scheming? Is he like Tzeentch of Warhammer 40k, who schemes simply for the sake of scheming?
Also, you said nupperibo were the original Baatorians. Why are they fighting for the Baatzu in the blood war, then? Why keep them in a position where a nupperibo could get experience and grow into another form of ancient Baatorian?
Also, what would you speculate would happen if a Baatorian around the power and intelligence of Asmodeus were to emerge from the 9 Hells? Particularly if he had an army he could use to not be killed on the spot by the Baatzu?
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2013-01-22, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
How does a native of the ethereal plane know if a being on the material plane is a native or not?
I thought when you were in the ethereal plan, it all looks the same, ghost like ect.Path of the Nefarious: A Way of the Wicked Journal.
Please take a look at the adventures of my group going through Fire Mountain Games's Way of the Wicked, An evil based Pathfinder Compatible adventure path.
http://d20evil.blogspot.com/
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2013-01-22, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
The Queen of Chaos is one of the obyriths, the ancient demon race of the Abyss. Not as old as some such as Dagon, Dwiergus and Pale Night, she is nonetheless among the greatest and most influential of this insane group.
In the Age Before Ages, there was a powerful race known as the vaati, or Wind Dukes. Lords of Law, they conquered the four Elemental Planes and expanded their empire across the Prime Material Plane. As they encroached on more and more territory, entities of Chaos grew aware of them, and determined to destroy these bringers of order. The obyriths brought chaos to the Inner Planes, the heart of the vaati empires, and the vaati reached out to the beings of Law across the Outer Planes in response.
The Queen of Chaos arose as a leader of the war against the vaati in this time. While beings such as the eladrins and slaad had joined the struggle for their own reasons, the great obyrith lords were unmoved and preferred to remain in the Abyss. The Queen of Chaos rallied them to her cause by staging a daring and impudent surprise attack against the mightiest obyrith, Obox-ob, the Prince of Demons.
With Obox-ob reduced to a crawling shadow and the title of Prince of Demons in her clutches, the Queen persuaded most of the recalcitrant lords to join the war, save those she herself personally feared. Over the long eons of battle, the obyriths had discovered that they could create and conscript new forces using the mortal souls that entered the Abyss. The first of these was made by the Queen of Chaos herself, and he was Demogorgon, cast away as a misshapen error. Others of this race, the tanar'ri, would form in fashions similarly chaotic and untempered, including Juiblex, the Faceless Lord. The Queen called upon the sibriex to shape the tanar'ri to forms suitable for war, and thus the infinite permutations of the tanar'ri existence were reduced to the more manageable number of forms we know today.
The Queen's great tanar'ri champion was Miska the Wolf-Spider, a powerful being who had been shaped personally by the Queen of Chaos to spawn races of spyder-fiends and embody a power nearly as great as that of the obyriths themselves. She bestowed upon Miska the title Prince of Demons and sent him forth to the wars on the Material Plane against the Wind Dukes, for the forces involved had come to understand that that battlefield would be crucial to ultimate victory.
It was on the Material Plane that an artifact was brought forth against Miska, whose power overwhelmed the Wind Dukes: the Rod of Seven Parts, designed solely to destroy the champion of chaos. It failed in its task, tainted by Miska's chaotic energies, but the wound it struck caused a rift which banished Miska to a planar prison, and the Rod itself scattered to prevent its being used as a key to release him.
The destruction of her general hit hard, and the Queen's forces, already disjointed with the addition of the tanar'ri and the alienation of the eladrins, began to splinter. The Queen of Chaos retreated to her layer of the Abyss and abandoned the war, leaving a power vacuum and offering the tanar'ri an opportunity to betray and overthrow the remaining obyriths. With evil turning against evil, the eladrins struck into the Abyss against both forces, doing permanent damage to the obyrith forces and reducing their numbers to a mere shadow of what they had once been.
The Wind Dukes lost most of their numbers in that final battle, and their power left the Inner Planes; now, the survivors are few there, and not many more reside in the Outer Planes. Instead, the remaining community bases itself in a small valley on Oerth; after millennia, it has yet to recover even a fraction of the size of the once-great empire of the vaati.
The tanar'ri, of course, did not stop hating Law just because they turned on their onetime masters. The Blood War has proceeded on the Lower Planes ever since, with a cordial if distant peace on the Upper Planes holding steady.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-22, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Did the Heavens fight on opposite sides of that conflict? You mention the Eladrin specifically as being on the Chaotic side, and you mention the vaati calling to the Outer Planes of Law for help, but did Eladrin ever fight Archon?
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2013-01-22, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
How feasible is it to search for new Spheres via Spelljammer? Are there thought to be many worth finding and, if so, why not simply scry-and-port?
Avatar by the incomparable araveugnitsuga!
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2013-01-22, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Above my pay grade is what it is.
What does he want to accomplish with his reserves, the misdirection and rumors, and his endless scheming?
Also, you said nupperibo were the original Baatorians. Why are they fighting for the Baatzu in the blood war, then?
Why keep them in a position where a nupperibo could get experience and grow into another form of ancient Baatorian?
Finally, the baatezu have a notion of how long they've got, really. They can trade nupperibos to the yugoloths (who consume them) or throw them into the war, and as long as their numbers don't hit a certain level there's no worry that a nupperibo will survive past the point that any baatezu need worry. When the numbers get unmanageable, there's a mass meltdown, and then things get back to normal. It's a fine balancing act, but it's one that Hell is willing to play.
Also, what would you speculate would happen if a Baatorian around the power and intelligence of Asmodeus were to emerge from the 9 Hells? Particularly if he had an army he could use to not be killed on the spot by the Baatzu?
To put it mildly, the Outer Planes are not ready for that kind of sudden resurgence of an ancient race.
I'm going to assume you mean an inhabitant, not a native (the Ethereal Plane doesn't have many natives).
Entities on the Material Plane look gray and ghostly to Ethereal travelers; however, that which is also on the Ethereal Plane looks normal enough.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-22, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
Hmmm. I think I've got an adventure idea...
What if, say, some Yugoloth thought that the Baatezu were getting just a bit too secure in their fortresses. Assume then, that 'loth started buying Nupperibo, not to consume them, but to store them somewhere safe and let them grow, to be released back into Baator later...Resident Vancian Apologist
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2013-01-22, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
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2013-01-22, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
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2013-01-22, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
I have an idea for homebrew tangentially related to this thread. I also think you would be the best person to make it. It's too big for over there, but I don't think I can make it myself, so should I post it in here or P.M. you?
Last edited by enderlord99; 2013-01-22 at 09:27 PM.
I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.
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2013-01-22, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
I have not been able to find a reference to it, but I wouldn't be surprised if on some very small scale, it happened. In the main, though, I think the celestials fought on different battlefields. The elementals, now, they fought each other.
There could conceivably be a great many worth finding; however, neither scry nor 'port tend to slip through the crystal spheres well, let alone the Flow, and specialized spells that do work on the Flow aren't much better than know direction. In general, seeking out unknown spheres that are off the known Flow rivers is a very daring and hazardous prospect; the possibilities of what lies beyond the known are quite tantalizing, however.
Turns out they did that one already. It's a component of the boxed set Hellbound: The Blood War.
I've had a long day.
Also, do new Obyrinths form out of the Abyss, or did the plane evolve and start creating only new Tanar'ri?
Per the answer to Eldan above: very very very yes.
PM it, please.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-22, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
What did the Queen of Chaos/Miska/the Wind Dukes look like? What powers did they have?
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2013-01-22, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
So the Grell are mentioned as coming from an alternate world through the plane of Shadow. Is this alternate world just another planet (which means that the Plane of Shadow is a way to feasibly travel through space safely), or is it an alternate Material Plane altogether?
If the former, ignore the questions below.
If the latter, does this alternate Material Plane have an alternate cosmology of it's own, or is it only attached to the Plane of Shadow? Also, what makes the Plane of Shadow so special in terms of its ability to touch these alternate Material Planes?Extended Homebrew Signature
Let's Read the Monster Manual II!
Dwarf Cleric avatar by azuyomi244. Thanks!
Saurial Soulknife avatar by Serpentine. Thanks!
Warforged Fighter Avatar by C-Lam. Thanks!
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2013-01-22, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
The Shadow Plane can connect to alternate Material Planes with entirely separate cosmologies. It's ability to do this probably has something to do with its nature of semireality.
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2013-01-22, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
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2013-01-23, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)
The Queen of Chaos has a corpulent, blue-skinned female humanoid upper body; below her waist are ten gigantic mauve tentacles concealing a razor-sharp parrot's beak. She had, uh, standard high-level demony powers.
Miska the Wolf-Spider was sort of like a gigantic human drider-man, with two bestial wolf-heads emerging from his shoulders and multiple arms. Ditto on his powers.
Vaati are tall, muscular and ebon-skinned, with glowing white eyes and short hair. They have mastery over the air.
We don't know what the cosmology of the grell world was like; as an alternate Material Plane, though, it likely had a different cosmology.
The Plane of Shadow was born of the mix of Positive and Negative Energy Planes; it's uniquely positioned as the border of life and death, and thus echoed everywhere such a border exists (read: everywhere). In any cosmology in which there is both creation and destruction, in any cosmology in which there is shadow, there will be an analogue of the Plane of Shadow. You could probably even walk to 4E from there.
They would not. There would be no point.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2013-01-23, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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