afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[afroakuma]

So I've been looking at Lichfiend (Libris Mortis) and I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend what would make undeath seem like a good idea to any fiend, let alone a spellcasting one. What would tempt a denizen of the Lower Planes to trade in their immorality for a much crappier version of immortality?

Depends which fiend, and what they like to do. Yes, for fiends that spend a good deal of time on the Material Plane, outsider immortality is the way to go. However, on their home plane, outsiders are much more vulnerable. A phylactery offers additional insurance above and beyond that which an outsider forms with. Note that the lichfiend rules are... really really really awful, to say the least, and don't specify a type change or the application of a template. All it says is that the lichfiend "gains all the abilities of a lich," which does not include its type (though it may include abilities and immunities arising from its type) or its hit die.

Basically, the lazily-written book didn't think it through at all, which means as written it looks like a pretty good deal for +0 CR.

[Deadline]

Is Tharizdun (or however it's spelled) the Prisoner of Elysium? Come to think of it, is Tharizdun even part of 3.5?

Tharizdun is strongly hinted at being the prisoner that is held by the Demiplane of Imprisonment (Dragon #353 article on demiplanes). (I believe the author of that part of the article as much as said it).

[Xefas]

Man, the Outer Planes have a lot of prisons. What about schools? I know we've got Sigil Prep, at least. IIRC, there's a law/political-science school in Baator named Grenpoli. Are there any others specifically spelled out anywhere?

[Coidzor]

I think this the last followup on that prime material plane line of questioning, but in the Planescape setting at least are there multiple worlds within the prime material plane then? If so, how are they set up, some semblance of our real-world understanding of space and planets? More like layers of the Prime Material Plane the same way the Outer Planes have layers?

Some combination of the two where there's partial layering in some cases where it's the "same place but different" so to speak or a bizarro-world version of a world occupying semi-overlapping metaspace?

Or have I just accidentally absorbed a bit too much fanon from others when I was learning about planescape and never quite separated them properly? I'd swear I've heard of primes that weren't all from the same world before...

Also, I apologize if you're already answered this one, but what's your take on the metaphysical implications of making a sapient undead that's at least theoretically the same person as the corpse from a corpse of a person who is also currently alive in a different body? Just doesn't work? Similar to trying to bring back someone who isn't willing?

Is there any level of personal power that a mortal can acquire without ascending to godhood/just outright becoming an archfiend or planar equivalent that would make a mortal more valuable to a planar, in this case let's take a fiend, as a servant of some sort rather than a soul in a gem or a bog-standard fiend? Is it more a matter of philosophical purity above pragmatism or just that in order to have someone be useful rather than a mind-wiped petitioner, piece of currency, or larval fiend that's not going to retain any of the originating soul's power over that of, say, an ant if ants have souls, it requires that enough power be capable of being invested/worth the effort to make someone into a unique Arch-Outsider of whatever stripe?

[afroakuma]

What is the Exact amount of planes in the Current Universe?
(And What be their names?)
(Perhaps Demiplanes as well, Only those noted though)

I'm not up to mounting a count of demiplanes, so here are the rest:

Inner Planes
• Elemental Plane of Air
• Elemental Plane of Earth
• Elemental Plane of Fire
• Elemental Plane of Water

• Para-Elemental Plane of Ice
• Para-Elemental Plane of Magma
• Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze
• Para-Elemental Plane of Smoke

• Positive Energy Plane
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Minerals
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Steam

• Negative Energy Plane
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Ash
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Dust
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Salt
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum

Material Plane

Outer Planes
• The Abyss
• Acheron
• Arborea
• Arcadia
• Baator
• The Beastlands
• Bytopia
• Carceri
• Celestia
• Elysium
• Gehenna
• Hades
• Limbo
• Mechanus
• The Outlands
• Pandemonium
• Ysgard

Transitive Planes
• Astral Plane
• Ethereal Plane
• Plane of Shadow

Unique Planes (sometimes not counted)
• Plane of Faerie
• Plane of Mirrors
• Region of Dreams
• Spirit World
• Temporal Energy Plane

Xenoreality (not part of this or any multiverse)
• Far Realm

Speculative Planes (also not counted)

Spoiler

Show

Planes of Cordance
• Avalon
• Discordia
• K'un Lun
• Nether
• Pangea
• Perdition
• Purgatory
• Sheol

Ordial Plane

Semi-Elemental Planes
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Clay
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Crystals
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Frost
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Fumes
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Obsidian
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Pumice
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Silt
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Sparks

[afroakuma]

Is it possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane? If so, what kind of plane would it be? How would one (or more) go about doing that?

How can I word this...

It is possible for a demiplane to expand into a true plane. It is not possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane.

[Lord_Gareth]

How can I word this...

It is possible for a demiplane to expand into a true plane. It is not possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane.

Meaning it cannot be done deliberately, but it sometimes happens because of natural, supernatural, or accidental causes?

[afroakuma]

Why is it that the corpses of gods seem to end up, inevitably, on the Astral Plane?

The Astral Plane is the conduit of thought and belief. A part of every power has always been there in some fashion; that which remains is collected there and guarded by Anubis.

[Coidzor]

How can I word this...

It is possible for a demiplane to expand into a true plane. It is not possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane.

So the demiplane can expand to the point where it becomes part of an existing true plane (presumably the material plane?) but it cannot expand to the point where it ceases to be a demiplane and becomes a true plane in its own right? Did I get that right?

[Yora]

I think it's a fancy way of saying that it can happen, but you can not force it?

[Coidzor]

I think it's a fancy way of saying that it can happen, but you can not force it?

I think it could be scanned either way, really. But I'm not 100% on top of my game today.

[afroakuma]

Man, the Outer Planes have a lot of prisons. What about schools? I know we've got Sigil Prep, at least. IIRC, there's a law/political-science school in Baator named Grenpoli. Are there any others specifically spelled out anywhere?

There's a small school in the Clerks' Ward known as the Scriptorium, dedicated to language. Educational facilities linked to the Musée Arcane in Sigil also provide tutelage. The great universities of Mechanus sprawl across many cogs, while the celestials have the Towers of Persuasion, where champions of redemption and virtue are brought to learn how to argue morality. Acheron has massive boot camps for armies, Arcadia has many lyceae, Limbo has of course the famous kitten electric mammogram baroque Hollandaise buttress indigo ramp gardener, and most factions run institutes of their own philosophy across the planes.

[afroakuma]

I think this the last followup on that prime material plane line of questioning, but in the Planescape setting at least are there multiple worlds within the prime material plane then? If so, how are they set up, some semblance of our real-world understanding of space and planets? More like layers of the Prime Material Plane the same way the Outer Planes have layers?

Planescape and Spelljammer were alternate ways of bridging the other settings of 2E, but they were also capable of coexisting (and did, in some novels!) The Prime Material Plane of Spelljammer (crystal spheres, phlogiston, all that good stuff) is the Prime Material Plane of Planescape, featuring multiple worlds (Krynn, Oerth and Toril being the big three).

So, you can have Primes from Krynn and Primes from Oerth and Primes from Toril and Primes from the Rock of Bral, etc. etc.

Also, I apologize if you're already answered this one, but what's your take on the metaphysical implications of making a sapient undead that's at least theoretically the same person as the corpse from a corpse of a person who is also currently alive in a different body? Just doesn't work? Similar to trying to bring back someone who isn't willing?

There's only one soul; you can fill a corpse with a different soul, but if the soul is walking around over there in a new body, you can't also have it over here. Mind you, you might be able to convince the new soul that it is the old one... and there may also be ways to force the soul out of the living body and into the corpse, if you're really so inclined.

Is there any level of personal power that a mortal can acquire without ascending to godhood/just outright becoming an archfiend or planar equivalent that would make a mortal more valuable to a planar, in this case let's take a fiend, as a servant of some sort rather than a soul in a gem or a bog-standard fiend?

Well, the difficulty there is that powerful souls escalate in value, so... it would be a very fine balancing act.

Is it more a matter of philosophical purity above pragmatism or just that in order to have someone be useful rather than a mind-wiped petitioner, piece of currency, or larval fiend that's not going to retain any of the originating soul's power over that of, say, an ant if ants have souls, it requires that enough power be capable of being invested/worth the effort to make someone into a unique Arch-Outsider of whatever stripe?

Fiends don't make archfiends. They don't like creating competition. Your best bet if you're looking to be a powerful servant of a fiend is to stay on the Prime. Being in a place where that fiend cannot or should not go, and executing duties there, is the best way to keep value in your current state.

[afroakuma]

Meaning it cannot be done deliberately, but it sometimes happens because of natural, supernatural, or accidental causes?

Well, "natural" for planar mechanics, yes.

[Deadline]

Given that I don't have and haven't read the newer fiendish codex series, could you give a solid outline of what the Pact Primevil is, and what it governs?

[AuraTwilight]

Planes of Cordance
• Avalon
• Discordia
• K'un Lun
• Nether
• Pangea
• Perdition
• Purgatory
• Sheol

Where can one read more about these?

[afroakuma]

Given that I don't have and haven't read the newer fiendish codex series, could you give a solid outline of what the Pact Primevil is, and what it governs?

The Pact Primeval was a powerful document signed by Asmodeus and the gods of law to basically assign Asmodeus the position of cosmic jail warden. The gods were tired of having to deal with wicked souls personally, so Asmodeus (a former angel who, with his minions were designed to defeat the primordial chaos of the universe---read: demons---and in the course of fighting with them, began to take on their evil characteristics) volunteered to be the one to deal with evil souls.

This deal involved Asmodeus being given domain over the Nine Hells, since the gods didn't want him splattering the blood of wicked souls all over their polished marble floors in the Heavens. Asmodeus moved in, and began his duties, but the gods realized that he was not only actively corrupting and entrapping souls to ensure their damnation, but was siphoning power off the souls of the wicked mortals he was capturing.

The gods were aghast, but apparently, they didn't read the fine print. (Source: Fiendish Codex 2)

The Pact itself is written on three copies, if I'm not mistaken; one in the Heavens, one in Mechanus, and one in the Nine Hells. Each copy is an artifact of overwhelming good, overwhelming law and overwhelming evil.

Pretty much what I would have said, right there.

Where can one read more about these?

Why, one can do that right here!

In brief, the Planes of Cordance are very obscure Outer Planes that occupy the spaces between the Outlands and the eight planes of pure alignment. As Bytopia is the midpoint between lawful good and neutral good, these planes are the midpoint between pure neutrality and pure alignment.

[Xervous]

How many documented entities have exhibited power comparable to/greater than the deities beyond the following?
Various elder evils (the ones capable of killing gods)
Queen of Pain

-

[afroakuma]

How many documented entities have exhibited power comparable to/greater than the deities beyond the following?
Various elder evils (the ones capable of killing gods)
Queen of Pain

-

Apart from Pandorym and the Lady of Pain, it's pretty much just gods that have that level of power. I wouldn't put it past some of the planar rulers to be capable of dealing serious injury or death to a deity, but the nature of gods is such that the only recorded entities to have power that they consider threatening are inscrutable mysteries of uncertain origin.

There are, of course, creatures such as abominations that possess immense power from their divine origins, but most of these couldn't seriously worry a god.

The only other entities that gods might fear are far from "documented," for they arise from the time before the current existence of the multiverse. The most known of these are the draedens, beings of an older order who despise contact with the current reality and have entered a deep slumber to await the end of the multiverse.

[Answerer]

Pandorym? Who's he/she/it?

[afroakuma]

Pandorym? Who's he/she/it?

Pandorym is an entity found in Elder Evils; a vast, destructive impetus from outside the multiverse, it was called into this reality by an ancient cabal of wizards who split its mind and body into two separate prisons, hoping to use its existence to threaten the gods.

[Xervous]

Generally, how does an angel fall?
What varying degrees of "fall" are there and what happens by those degrees?

[Larkas]

Where, exactly, is the prison for the Dragon from Dark Sun?

[afroakuma]

Where, exactly, is the prison for the Dragon from Dark Sun?

Prison for the Dragon? Last I checked he was quite free and being wildly unpleasant as is his normal wont.

[Larkas]

Prison for the Dragon? Last I checked he was quite free and being wildly unpleasant as is his normal wont.

Wait, wasn't he imprisoned in the Black below the Gray... Or something? Or am I misremembering which character is who?

[Lord_Gareth]

Generally, how does an angel fall?
What varying degrees of "fall" are there and what happens by those degrees?

Angels 'fall' by becoming non-good. There are various ways this happens, but for the most part all of them are exceedingly rare; like a modron turning chaotic (happened in canon), a slaadi becoming lawful (canon) or a fiend becoming good (canon) the very act is SO antithetical to their natures that ANY case of it is by definition an exceptional case.

With that in mind, the most "common" (if such a term can be applied here) cause is corruption by evil. They become like the thing they hate (Asmodeus), abandon their principles in favor of expedience (soldiers) or are infected by hubris, dark magic, or both (Merikel). Every now and then - and this is so rare that you can probably see the rise and fall of entire player races between it happening - an angel just...goes bad. Something happens to them, like the death of a loved one or a loss in battle, and they just snap like elastic bands and go insane.

As far as 'degrees' of falling, most angels that 'fall' land in the area of N, often becoming private citizens and congregating in the direction of Sigil. Depending on their alignment, they may instead choose to pursue a mission (Lawful), swear allegiance to another power (any) or seek shelter on the Material (any, but usually Chaotic). Angels managing to fall all the way to Evil are much rarer, and either manage to carve themselves a niche as unique Outsiders of the appropriate alignment (Asmodeus, Merikel) or else eventually mutate into an appropriate fiendish race due to exposure to the background energies of their new home.

[afroakuma]

Wait, wasn't he imprisoned in the Dark below the Gray... Or something?

Oh. Rajaat. Rajaat is imprisoned in an unusual sort of demiplane called The Hollow, which exists under The Black, a form of Shadow Plane for the world of Athas.

[Larkas]

Oh. Rajaat. Rajaat is imprisoned in an unusual sort of demiplane called The Hollow, which exists under The Black, a form of Shadow Plane for the world of Athas.

Aaaah, Rajaat, that's his name. Got it! What about the Gray? Is it the Ethereal or something?

[afroakuma]

Aaaah, Rajaat, that's his name. Got it! What about the Gray? Is it the Ethereal or something?

The Gray is a sort of buffer zone separating Athas from its Border Ethereal and connections to the Astral Plane. One can't get to and from the Planes without penetrating the Gray; however, this is all but impossible to do from the Astral side (making it very difficult to access the Outer Planes) and still fairly tricky from the Ethereal side. Further, the Gray is a "net" of sorts for dead souls, trapping them inside as they leave the Material Plane and gradually wearing them into oblivion.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, planar-race Druids. Are they a thing? What role do they play in their societies?