Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5]

[nedz]

Just waiting for Mattie_p and pages 29-32 and after folding the whole lot into the folder we're done — for the time being at least.

I'm not sure what to do about the PF stuff, this is a 3.5 thread really ?

[nedz]

Most Dysfunctional things found so far

Classes: Monk

Template: Necropolitan

Skills: Knowledge

Feat: Crafting

Combat: Surprise, though Mounted Combat is in hot pursuit

Monster: Pixie



Ironically the Dysfunctional thing reported most often was Spot, glad to see everyone here has sharp eyes — especially for the moon.

[Zetapup]

I would have caught this in the edit.



OK - I'll take pages 1-2 of thread 2 then, page 3 is still hot.

Any idea on this one ?



Post the find into this thread.

Im away from book, but I'm pretty sure flicker is something you cast once, then you have a teleport you can dog each round for a lesser cost. It is this lesser cost ability you can use in response to attacks

I checked my copy of ToM, and Mystify is correct.

[nedz]

I checked my copy of ToM, and Mystify is correct.

So it's a spell !
Excellent, I'll update the index shortly.
I didn't doubt Mystify at all, I just wasn't sure which heading to put it under.

[TuggyNE]

I would have caught this in the edit.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted....

Anyway, that was a lot less painful than I thought.

[nedz]

Anyway, that was a lot less painful than I thought.

Yes, trawling through the thread was fun. More fun than the editing really.

[ddude987]

I have to disagree with the ride-by-attack not working. There is proof in the phb that both mount and rider are considered charging.

When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance pg. 157

So this is saying that you are charging and are on horseback therefore both you and the mount are considered charging.

[The Viscount]

Excellent work on cataloging all these dysfunctions. Truly a herculean effort. Minor quibble on the chart: Clerics is written as "Slerics" and Reaping Mauler's entry should be under Prestige Classes.

[nedz]

Claiming 29-32.

Any progress ?

I have to disagree with the ride-by-attack not working. There is proof in the phb that both mount and rider are considered charging.
So this is saying that you are charging and are on horseback therefore both you and the mount are considered charging.

Please take this up in this thread.

Excellent work on cataloging all these dysfunctions. Truly a herculean effort. Minor quibble on the chart: Clerics is written as "Slerics" and Reaping Mauler's entry should be under Prestige Classes.

Thanks — I'll be updating them shortly.

[TuggyNE]

I think I'll catalog 3-6 in the new thread.

[Leon]

So a collected list of things that pedantic people cant get their heads around to think sensibly about. There is some pretty silly stuff listed.

But for example
Monk: No proficiency with unarmed strikes.

Why does it need to list a Specific Proficiency when by the Rules as Written (something the thread should be happy with as its taking whats written to the Nth degree in most cases) show that anyone can make a Unarmed Attack with some difficulty except for the Monk who has Improved Unarmed Strike (There is your proficiency ~ under another name)

[noparlpf]

So a collected list of things that pedantic people cant get their heads around to think sensibly about. There is some pretty silly stuff listed.

But for example
Monk: No proficiency with unarmed strikes.

Why does it need to list a Specific Proficiency when by the Rules as Written (something the thread should be happy with as its taking whats written to the Nth degree in most cases) show that anyone can make a Unarmed Attack with some difficulty except for the Monk who has Improved Unarmed Strike (There is your proficiency ~ under another name)

1. This is a compendium, the discussion goes in the other thread. See the original post.

2. Holy [expletive] [expletive] we have been up and down this thing and beaten it to death by now. See other thread for ridiculously lengthy argument.

[TuggyNE]

By the way, Nedz, I'd appreciate it if my hard work cataloging the difference between 3.x-general, 3.5-only, and PF-only was preserved.

Prestige Class|Thief-Acrobat|Uncanny dodge, but only while climbing or balancing*|3|3.5
Prestige Class|Order of the Bow Initiate|Pre-req feat that's useless with main feature, class feature that's inferior to one granted at same level by usual entry base class|3|3.5***
Prestige Class|Order of the Bow Initiate|Terrible skills, but usual entry and customary use requires lots of skills|3|3.5
Spell|Invoke Magic|Doesn't actually say it can be cast in dead/anti-magic*|3|3.5
Feat|Mercurial Strike (DrMag 310)|Triggers when you get an unarmed AoO, but you can't make AoOs while unarmed|3|3.5
Misc|Multiclassing|You can pick up a first level of Wizard at an earlier age if you take a less-skilled class first|3|3.x
Item|Spell component pouch|Contains (by strict interpretation of "no listed price" rule) multiple artifacts (including those larger than the pouch's owner), a piece of every god in existence, a tuning fork for every plane, and so on|4|3.x
Skill|Forgery, Decipher Script|Illiterate Barbarian can make checks with no penalty (Forgery isn't trained-only, and Decipher Script needs no literacy)|4|3.5
Skill|Use Magic Device|Illiterate Barbarian can make checks to active scrolls with no penalty|4|3.x
Misc|Positive Energy Plane|Natives are unable to breathe in the airlessness of the plane|5|3.5
Monster|Marut|Designed for hunting liches and other death-cheaters, but liches are largely immune to the signature fists of thunder and lightning and their DR is effective against non-magic slams|5|3.x
Monster|Demons|Often have darkness SLA, but racial darkvision is ineffective in it, so babau etc can't sneak attack|6|3.5


*** I don't recall whether this is a result of the 3.5 update or was like that already in 3.0 or what.

Off-topic on IUS:

Spoiler

Show

But for example
Monk: No proficiency with unarmed strikes.

Why does it need to list a Specific Proficiency when by the Rules as Written (something the thread should be happy with as its taking whats written to the Nth degree in most cases) show that anyone can make a Unarmed Attack with some difficulty except for the Monk who has Improved Unarmed Strike (There is your proficiency ~ under another name)

Yeah... logically, of course, the Monk should be proficient. However, IUS doesn't call itself proficiency, canceling the penalty for doing lethal damage with a usually non-lethal weapon (or vice versa) is not proficiency, the text in a non-primary source does not take precedence over the table in a primary source, and so on.

Basically, the rules are written poorly enough that there's a plausible argument to be made they don't actually work right. That's good enough for a Type I dysfunction (i.e., requires a bit of common sense to fix a clear error in literal rules).

[Leon]

1. This is a compendium, the discussion goes in the other thread. See the original post.

2. Holy [expletive] [expletive] we have been up and down this thing and beaten it to death by now. See other thread for ridiculously lengthy argument.

Pedantic list is a pedantic list no matter what you call it.
I'm not interested in a lengthy thread or discussion.
It was a choice out of many many other silly things listed on the list. There is reading the rules and then there is reading the rules and throwing commonsense out the window when understanding what the ink on the page means.

(i.e., requires a bit of common sense to fix a clear error in literal rules)

Commonsense is a frequently lacking ability when it comes to gamers of all stripes.

[mattie_p]

Any progress ?

I should have them posted by Friday. I've been out of town for a while with job interviews, which are all wrapped up now. So I'll have some time again.

[TuggyNE]

Commonsense is a frequently lacking ability when it comes to gamers of all stripes.

I am well aware; I've worked on a number of projects on these boards to either compensate or correct for the lack of general common sense. In point of fact, this is one of them: collecting a list of "you need at least a bit of common sense to deal with these" problems is helpful in driving home that they need fixing, and perhaps help teach people what is meant by common sense in the first place. If anything, the fact that all these problems require some common sense to identify is a good argument for collecting them instead of leaving them to the dubious mercies of individual DMs or groups.

[nedz]

By the way, Nedz, I'd appreciate it if my hard work cataloging the difference between 3.x-general, 3.5-only, and PF-only was preserved.

That's a fair point, but we don't have that information for all of the sievings:
So it's a lot of hard work either way. I will look at doing something with this.

So a collected list of things that pedantic people cant get their heads around to think sensibly about. There is some pretty silly stuff listed.

You can view this list as compulsory house rules.

[TuggyNE]

That's a fair point, but we don't have that information for all of the sievings:
So it's a lot of hard work either way. I will look at doing something with this.

Hmm, fair enough. Hate to have to run back through them, but that might be the best....

You can view this list as compulsory house rules.

Or, at any rate, a list of houserules that need to be compiled. (RACSD is more "prefab houserules with proofreading" than this is.)

[nedz]

Hmm, fair enough. Hate to have to run back through them, but that might be the best....

I'll try and include what we have next time I update the index. This will probably be over the weekend.

[Sith_Happens]

Personally, I'd suggest changing the thread title to [3.5] Complete Dysfunction: A Player's Guide to Stuff that Doesn't Work Right. Just because.

[nedz]

Pages 3-6 now catalogued.

Version column added and populated where known.

[The Viscount]

Mattie p seems busy, so I'll do 29-32. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.

Base Class|Truenamer(ToM)|Truenaming DCs too difficult to reasonably make without optimization|1|30|3.5

Feat|Psicrystal Affinity(XPH)|No way to recover destroyed psicrystal without retrain/DCFS|1|30|3.5

Feat|Focused Lexicon(ToM)|Increases DCs for utterances by 1, not save DCs|1|32|3.5

Miscellaneous|Sleeping|No penalty for not sleeping for non-casters|1|30|

Miscellaneous|Dragonscale Husk ACF|Does not stack with any "feat, racial trait, or special ability" so does not stack with natural armor; does not list bonus type|1|31|3.5

Skills|Size Penalties and Bonuses|Apply to Hide, but not Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, etc*|1|30|3.5

Monsters|Elder Brain|Can disguise self well enough to fool others*|1|30|3.5

Monsters|Phasm|When advanced in HD, size changes from Medium to Huge|1|31|3.5

Combat|Prone|Prevents one from casting spells that require a ranged attack|1|31|

Combat|Fatigue and exhaustion|Fatigued characters cannot run or charge, but exhausted characters can|1|31|



That's all of them. Feel free to not include any that don't seem dysfunctional enough. One or two dysfunctions were cleared up by errata, so I did not reproduce them here. Is the procedure on dysfunction cleared by errata to ignore?

[TuggyNE]

One or two dysfunctions were cleared up by errata, so I did not reproduce them here. Is the procedure on dysfunction cleared by errata to ignore?

Yeah, if errata fixed it, there's no need to call attention to the previous brokenness (except to note that errata are a thing). Give 'em credit for the occasional fixes they did actually manage.

[Deepbluediver]

I love homebrewing stuff to fix problems with the game, so this is a fantastic resource. Thanks everyone!

[mattie_p]

Mattie p seems busy, so I'll do 29-32. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.

Is the procedure on dysfunction cleared by errata to ignore?

Nope, glad you did it, I feel bad about dropping the ball, but I've been traveling for the past month, things are finally settling down.

Yeah, if errata closes the dysfunction, feel free to ignore.

[nedz]

Thanks, I was about to step into this breach but no need now.

I'll update the indecies presently.

It might be worth including things which have been cleared up — just so that we have a reference index to the debate ? Well, maybe ?

[TuggyNE]

It might be worth including things which have been cleared up — just so that we have a reference index to the debate ? Well, maybe ?

You could if you want. I don't think there are too many of those, though.

Incidentally, we've gotten pretty far behind in the new thread; I think I'll grab 7-10.

[nedz]

We have haven't we.
I'll take 11-14 then.

Monk proficiency with unarmed weapons |2|11-14
Combat|Disarm|Disarming a Zombie improves it's damage per attack|2|11|3.PF
Feats|Blazing Berserker and Frozen Berserker|Gains fire and cold subtypes|2|11|3.PF
Templates|Half X/Y or Half Y/X|Do you apply Half X to Y or Half Y to X ?|2|12|3.5
PrC|Death Master|Trouble with Incorporeal minions|2|12|3.5
Equip|Ranged Weapons|Gargantuan Longbow and a Diminutive Longbow have the same range|2|12|3.5
Combat|Sneak Attack|Melee can get sneak damage at more than 30'|2|12|3.5
Monster|Devils|Chain devils are immune to cold.Ice devils aren't|2|13|3.5
Base|Knight|Knight's Shield Block ability doesn't require use of a shield|2|13|3.5
Base|Drow ACFs|Don't require you to be a Drow|2|13|3.5
Equip|Exotic Shields|Don't require a seperate Proficiency|2|13|3.5
PrC|Shade Hunter|Requires FE(shades), shades do not exist|2|13|3.5
Spell|Gate|Cannot call outsiders from their own lane|2|14|3.5
Spell|Dismissal/Banishment|Dismissal is lower level than Banishment but can be more powerful|2|14|3.5

[TuggyNE]

7-10, a bit belatedly, but that's how it goes.

Combat|Grapple|Can't start multiple grapple attempts unless BAB +6 or better, even if hasted or flurrying|2|7|3.5
Combat|Grapple|Not allowed to use Su abilities in grapple (among other possible problems)|2|7|3.PF
Skill|Craft|1/3 price for raw materials may not cover cost of materials|2|7|3.PF
Movement|Falling|Falling off a cliff, stalling in flight, and jumping down all have different speeds and do not reference each other|2|7|3.5
Movement|Falling|Dropping prone in your square immediately lands you on the ground with no damage taken no matter how far|2|7|3.PF
Equipment|Sai|-4 to disarm checks from light weapon cancels out +4 to disarm checks for being designed to disarm|2|7|3.5
Spell|Revive Undead|Target is "destroyed undead", but requires "intact body"|2|8|3.5
Spell|Inflict/Cure X Wounds|Doesn't mention needing a touch attack to deal damage*|2|8|3.5
PrC|Elocater|Immune to falling damage?|2|8|3.PF
PrC|Elocater|Slows native fly speeds to 10'/round|2|8|3.5
Spell|Revive Undead|Can't revive incorporeal undead (nothing to touch?)|2|9|3.5
Equipment|Spyglass|Makes objects appear a mere 40' closer|2|9|3.PF
Misc|Starvation/Thirst|Can't starve to death, and can't die of thirst in Core either, or if you're not in a desert-ish environment|2|10|3.5
PrC|Eldritch Disciple|Makes healing ranged touch attacks, but no obvious provision to auto-accept those|2|10|3.5

Also, taking 15-20 in a bit.

[ShurikVch]

Spell|Revive Undead|Target is "destroyed undead", but requires "intact body"|2|8|3.5

Fixed with the spell Total Repair.

Spell|Revive Undead|Can't revive incorporeal undead (nothing to touch?)|2|9|3.5

Spell Forced Manifestation can help...