Vampirism good for Belkar's soul?

[The Pilgrim]

Being more inteligent, wiser and charismatic, Belkar will finally be able to efficiently fake character development. And without the impediment of suffering real character development like it was happening to him.

So, basically, Belkar's transformation into a functional Chaotic Evil character will be complete.

[Tragak]

Ehm, if what started to happen in the last panel of the last comic ends sucessfuly, then we are no longer talking about Belkar. It's Vampire Spawn Belkar now, and as such he is a mind slave of Malak. It's not a mind control spell, it's not Dominate Person. It's just that he is Malak's bitch now. He doesn't gets the chance of a saving throw to resist commands, neither gets bonus if forced to do anything against his nature.

Ah, but that's if Malack chooses to control Belkar like that, but since he not only seems to strenuously object to using undead as mindless slaves but was also talking about having "children" again, not just a minion, I think he's going to keep Belkar "awake" so to speak.

[KillianHawkeye]

Since the vampire template requires the creature in question to be Evil, and Belkar already is that, I expect it to make somewhere between none and bupkiss difference in this regard...

It doesn't require them to be evil, it MAKES them evil if they weren't already.

[Themrys]

Ah, but that's if Malack chooses to control Belkar like that, but since he not only seems to strenuously object to using undead as mindless slaves but was also talking about having "children" again, not just a minion, I think he's going to keep Belkar "awake" so to speak.

I think he will treat Belkar like a child - keep him "awake" but still control him to some extent. Having a parent could have a good influence on Belkar if we assume that his psychopathic behaviour is the result of a very unhappy childhood.

Of course, Malack is somewhat evil, but we don't know how evil he acts when he's not with Tarquin. After all, the OotS is not evil and still tolerates Belkar as a group member.

[The Pilgrim]

Actually, according to the official D&D rules, always evil alignments don't actually mean 'always.'

Still, there is a difference between the oficial D&D rules stating that "always X alignment" doesn't means "always", and the D&D rules stating that the conversion to vampirism transforms a person's alignment to Evil.

[ZerglingOne]

I think Rich knows exactly what he's doing giving Belkar the Vampire template.

While all vampires are evil due to the undead change, that does not mean their alignments are rigid once they are turned. Many plots involve vampires that struggle with the thirst and their desire to reintegrate with society. You see this in stories like Blade and Twilight...as abominable as Twilight vampirism is.

Even as a one-off joke, a +4 wisdom flipped belkar's alignment 4 stages, so it's not unlikely for a +2 to shift it 2 stages one way or the other.

One thing is for sure, he can't -really- get more evil, so there's only up to go. I think having recently growing attached to a living thing is going to give him new respect for life. But I could be wrong, and this could also just send Belkar off the deep-end of badassery.

[Zost]

Let's not forget (although I'm probably stating the obvious) that the Oracle declared that Belkar would "draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year." Vampires are undead, so don't breath.

[WarGiver]

One thing that most situations involving Vampires I have seen in fiction (Including most D&D conversions I have seen) is that if the Vampire converting the living does it intentionally the converted does act somewhat like a child, at least they are impressionable from their "parrent" most works I have seen usually use the words Sire and Childe, because of this. As such since our Vampire in this case seems lawful we might just see Belker turn Lawful, although it will take time and exposure to Malack... I fear what would happen if Nale somehow becomes the one to influnce Belkar... given Malack's past in regards to Nale and his children... well...

[WindStruck]

Well I don't think you'd lose much of who you were when you turn a vampire, so it's likely Belkar still really hates nale... and considering he flat-out whoops Nale's ass if it weren't for suggestion, charm, and other mind-affecting spells, and now that Belkar is a vampire and immune to those, I think Nale's chances are slim to none...

just about the only good thing going for Nale in this regard is that Malack wants to kill Nale himself.

[Bomaz]

Interesting sidenote, here is belkar when he gets +4 wisdom:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

Here is the vampire template:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

It gives +2 wisdom, int and +4 cha, so there may very well be some changes to his personality

[The Giant]

Merged two threads on the same exact topic.

[TheYell]

Well what happened in the Owl's Wisdom strip?

Belkar got the additional Wisdom to heal others effectively.
He enjoyed this new ability so much that he renounced his former attraction to rage and pain.
But then the wizard took away this insight.
Because V's superior Intelligence decreed that the bottom of a monster-filled dungeon was not the place to renounce violence.


Where are they now?

[Kish]

Well what happened in the Owl's Wisdom strip?

Belkar got the additional Wisdom to heal others effectively.
He enjoyed this new ability so much that he renounced his former attraction to rage and pain.
But then the wizard took away this insight.
Because V's superior Intelligence decreed that the bottom of a monster-filled dungeon was not the place to renounce violence.

That last line is a huge assumption. How would Vaarsuvius even have known what Belkar was thinking?

[KillianHawkeye]

That last line is a huge assumption. How would Vaarsuvius even have known what Belkar was thinking?

I agree. More likely that V simply thought there was no further use in continuing the spell once the reason it was cast was resolved. Also, because it helped the punchline.

[TheYell]

Oh right, thought balloon v speech balloon.

[Tragak]

Plus the spell was on a time limit anyway.

[Caex]

Well what happened in the Owl's Wisdom strip?

Belkar got the additional Wisdom to heal others effectively.
He enjoyed this new ability so much that he renounced his former attraction to rage and pain.
But then the wizard took away this insight.
Because V's superior Intelligence decreed that the bottom of a monster-filled dungeon was not the place to renounce violence.


Where are they now?

The bottom of a monster filled dungeon with a vengeful Linear Guild breathing down their necks, at that. My, how times change.

[SowZ]

Still, there is a difference between the oficial D&D rules stating that "always X alignment" doesn't means "always", and the D&D rules stating that the conversion to vampirism transforms a person's alignment to Evil.

That has no effect on Belkar, though, since his alignment was evil to begin with. There are examples of Good Vampires in D&D.

[TheYell]

Given any free will I think Belkar will be experimenting with his fighting ability as a vampire, rather than, say, learning how to be an effective enforcer of a tyrant, or studying the way of Nergal.

[Bulldog Psion]

I doubt that Belkar as vampire is going to be anything else than what he already is -- a murderous though amusing creep.

[St Fan]

I doubt that Belkar as vampire is going to be anything else than what he already is -- a murderous though amusing creep.

I would agree with that -- Belkar had already little consideration for the lives of other, the change to vampirism won't change him in this regard.

It is interesting, in fact, that, although undeath itself certainly won't be a total zero-sum and still bring some novelties, it is minor compared to the one important fact, that Belkar would now be subversient to Malack.

Story-wise, Belkar's allegiance is more important than the power increase he will go through. Now it can go several ways -- either joining fully the Linear Guild, or acting as the mole within the Order of the Stick.

The latter has probably the most potential. It would be funny to see how long it would take for Roy and co. to realize the halfling is now a bloodthirsty undead. My guess: a long while, considering how oblivious they can be. (See: Nale-as-Elan arc.)

[The_Tentacle]

A lot of you guys seem to be saying that he will become vampire spawn. I could be wrong, but I think he's high enough level to become a full vampire regardless. Whether this will actually put him under Malack's control is beyond me.

Also, this entire thing here is pointing towards Belkar becoming a vampire lord. I don't know all of the prerequisites, but I can see the killing his master part coming up.

Last, the main point of Belkar is that he's drastically different from the rest of the party. That defines his entire part of the team (he is the foil). I don't think that the giant will change all of that just because the template says he should.

[Winter]

It would be funny to see how long it would take for Roy and co. to realize the halfling is now a bloodthirsty undead. My guess: a long while, considering how oblivious they can be. (See: Nale-as-Elan arc.)

How is learning "Belkar is a bloodthirsty undead" any different from their current knowledge he already is a bloodthirsty monster?

[Kish]

"Bloodthirsty" being literal rather than figurative.

[Bulldog Psion]

The latter has probably the most potential. It would be funny to see how long it would take for Roy and co. to realize the halfling is now a bloodthirsty undead. My guess: a long while, considering how oblivious they can be. (See: Nale-as-Elan arc.)

The red eyes and black speech balloon are going to be a bit of a giveaway. But then again, the OotS does have a collective "situational awareness" rating of zero.

[Winter]

"Bloodthirsty" being literal rather than figurative.

"Literal and figurative" instead of "just figuartive".

[ReaderAt2046]

The red eyes and black speech balloon are going to be a bit of a giveaway. But then again, the OotS does have a collective "situational awareness" rating of zero.

And Belkar can turn those off, just like Malak.

[JackRackham]

I expect him to be bound to Malack's will (though he may still grumble if asked to do something he normally wouldn't, he'll do it). If and when Malack dies, assuming Belkar survives, I expect he'll be harder to control - in much the same way Xykon was - as the ability-score boosts will make it tougher to manipulate him. I doubt the Wisdom boost will push him toward Neutral. Take Redcloak, for example. Sure, he's evil for a cause. But he's still Evil.

At the same time, I think Vampirism is qualitatively different than other types of undead. I don't think it's AS inhuman, or alien, as a Lich. I don't think it switches off the very possibility of empathy the way Lichdom seems to (I hope) and I don't think it's as unthinking as some of the others - even the free-willed varieties.

[Winter]

And Belkar can turn those off, just like Malak.

What are the chances a dim-witted fool as Belkar manages to control himself with his speech at all times? It's either "zero" or "close to zero".

[Reathin]

Point 1: Belkar starts out at the deep end of the alignment pool. He was an unrepentant serial killer who only began changing his behavior in respect to society out of pure survival instinct and the influence of a kooky guy with a cat. There was no where for him to go but up.

Not really. Belkar is crazy evil, absolutely, but he could certainly be more psychotic. The fact that he works with the Order at all rather than, say, slitting their throats at night and taking their stuff for one thing. He likes violence and bloodshed, but he could definitely get worse.

Point 2: While Malack might be an undead abomination, he's just about the most reasonable one you could find, and he seems to have had at least some attachment to his prior offspring. Belkar may have had nice parents before, he may not, but I'm willing to bet that Malack will get across to the undead god of war that he does on some level care about him. And honestly, one cat aside, who else has shown that sort of feeling to Belkar in comic, at all?

Keep in mind that Malack is converting Belkar after seeing him for the second time (and only speaking to him the first). He knows basically nothing about him and is only changing him because he wants to have a family again (of a sort) and Tarquin's got him in that line of thought. He seems to care more about his own need to have a "child" than Belkar's opinion on the matter. How much could he care, really, given that he was just about ready to kill him casually?

Point 3: Template stat boosts to intelligence and wisdom. Given Belkar's high level, it's almost a given that he will receive the full vampire template, and not simply become a vampire spawn, and if if Rich goes by the SRD, he will gain at least a minor increase to his intelligence and wisdom, to say nothing of the massive charisma boost he's going to get to being a sexy shoeless god of war.
If nothing else it will cancel out his wisdom penalty, and give him the possibility of a new perspective.

Stats do not affect alignment (the one time when he got a Wisdom boost and became good was a gag, nothing more). Redcloak has a Wisdom of at least 19 (likely much more, given Level 17 resources) and he's actively pursuing a plan that could very well unmake the souls of everyone in the world if it goes wrong, which he acknowledges as acceptable in SoD. If Belkar gets a new perspective, it will still be filtered through the lense of his psychotic blood lust, quite likely made worse by his literal need for the blood of others. A good or neutral vampire can exist, but how likely is it that Belkar will suddenly restrain himself when he's already got the impulse control of 8-Bit Theater's Black Mage?

All of these add up to Belkar having a very good chance to empathize on some level with another sentient being. (Yes, yes, Mr. Scruffy is a genius and future master of the planet, but Belkar doesn't know that.)

Sure redemption isn't for everyone, but I think in a way it's kind of nice that Belkar gets an opportunity to realize just what he missed out on, right before he finally faces the consequences for his life.

Edited for errors.

I don't think it's terribly likely that he'll particularly like a guy who just about killed him and then converted him into a slave on a whim (even full vampires are under the control of their creators). Oh, and he shoved Mr. Scruffy out of the way with a stick. Malack's doomed if Belkar has any say whatsoever.

I seriously doubt Belkar's going to consider changing his ways or even acknowledge he has to. He KNOWS what he's doing is wrong, he simply doesn't care.