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Thread: So, Malack...
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2013-02-25, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
How about, instead, he proposed it in a way that Malack would swallow it? Something like: "No single empire can last very long here, and every time someone tries, all it does is get thousands slaughtered, just to barely make it a year before starting over. How about we create three empires instead, controlled by us, that pretend to fight each other while in fact slowly taking over and establishing the rule of Law? I get to rule, Malack gets peace and quiet, [list other carrots for the rest of the party here]. Doesn't that sound like a better deal than what they have right now?"
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2013-02-25, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
You're really trying to sell me that Malack has adventured with Tarquin for 35 years, then they started that "Let's build a system of empires that we topple once in a while", also switched groups once in a while and still worked for the same goal, lives in one of the most possible "through and through evil empires imaginable" and that he did not notice how evil Tarquin is?
I want to add another question: Are you really serious about this?
Of course, the people who cling the most tightly to their delusions are evil beings in-comic. So it may be that part of being evil is the willful decision not to see the truth about themselves, their actions, or about others.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2013-02-25, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Nah, I really doubt Malack is clueless about Tarquin's true nature and how he rule the Empire. But friendship is not a matter of alignment in my opinion. Most people focus on the "Good" vs "Evil" of the alignment system of D&D, but don't forget the "Law" vs "Chaos" part. In Planescape setting, you can see good and evil people joining forces to fight the forces of law or chaos.
Malack being Lawful Neutral, if he is, wouldn't be an issue toward his friendship and association with Tarquin as they seem to mostly work on the Lawful aspect of things with their empire.
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2013-02-25, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
A more moral society would also have the downside of wanting at least one of his friend's heads on a platter, and his for... existing.
Also, this is the person that failed to realise Elan was ludicrously not-Nale like until after the fact. I'm not so certain about what he can pick up on.
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2013-02-25, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
So maybe instead of a 2-dimensonal alignment axis we need a 3d-axis: Lawful/chaotic, Good/evil, Stupid/not stupid.
That would even make a certain amount of sense. Creatures below INT 3 can't have alignment at all, can they?
So the lower the intelligence scale, the more it mitigates their other choices and pushes them towards neutral. That may be why we as a group are willing to forgive Thog for things we find inexcusable in Tarquin.
Of course, if Malack is intelligent enough to do spell research than he should theoretically be intelligent enough to understand the difference between good and evil.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2013-02-25, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Well, Nale is well-known for being the scheming type and Malack didn't know that Tarquin had two sons. So when a guy who look exactly like Nale is brought by bounty hunters, he had no reason to doubt him being Nale and every reason to suspect he was trying to play dumb and pretending to be his long lost twin brother who's name was in reverse.
When Tarquin confirmed that it was Elan and not Nale, Malack accepted it as the truth.
I'll agree that he can be clueless at time, the fact that he didn't realize that Durkon knew Elan and the rest of the order goes that way, but I think he's not that clueless. After all, he had the feeling that they all knew each other. I think he mostly looks clueless when confronted with Tarquin's genre savyness.
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2013-02-25, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Blue Ghost, Lawful Good generalist wizard, at your service.
Love wins. S'agapo.
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2013-02-25, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
High-Wisdom characters tend to be disturbingly bad at common sense. Or maybe it's that they've got a more rarefied common sense that is unfortunately at odds with more useful genre savviness. Or maybe it's just good perception but no bonuses to interpreting what they spot.
That he didn't put 2 and 2 together with Haley, Elan, and then everyone going off together... I'm not so certain he'd spot these things.
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2013-02-25, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Well, Tarquin is certainly able to keep his nature low key if needed - how else do you think his wife remained with him, persumably for a few years?
Now, back when they were just adventuring party I doubt they were anything more than your standard dungeon crawling variety. They apparently split up for some reason, but unlike the Scribblers, there was no bad blood.
Then they have their scheme running for about 20 years. They are toppling their kingdoms once in one or two years. Assuming their rotate all possible pairings, Malack was working with Tarquin on about three kingdoms. Which is suddenly not that much.
I guess Malack knows or suspects that Tarquin is a bastard. But he might very well willingly ignore it because from his perspective, making LE empires out of NE/CE environment is an acceptable goal so one might rise above working with unsavory types.There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2013-02-25, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
We also know that Tarquin was working as a high priest when Tarquin unsuccessfully tried to conquer the Western Continent and invited him to be a warlord rather than have no place to go, which was when he came up with the plan.
I'm not sure if this has any moral significance, but it seems kind of relevant to any conversation on their pasts.
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2013-02-25, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
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2013-02-25, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Do you mean "Malack was working..."? Even if so, I'm not so sure we could count on that Tarquin's exposition. After all, we know that Malack didn't "find" him, but it was vice versa.
Last edited by Mike Havran; 2013-02-25 at 02:14 PM.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2013-02-25, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Yes, I did mean Malack.
Originally Posted by Tarquin
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2013-02-25, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Huh.
Looks like the topic got back on track without me. Very well, I retract what I said earlier.
Please excuse my unduly strident behavior earlier, it's just in reaction to the tendency I see for people to use any excuse to either minimize or maximize some aspect of a character unduly, as evidenced by the aforementioned precedents of Belkar and Miko.
So to me, the tone from a rather vocal majority all seems like "Until I see Malack literally chowing down on live, crying Care Bears, I will deem him neutral," which I think is a bit silly.
That's not to say that some of you haven't put forth some reasonable sounding arguments, or at least ones that are polite and civil compared to the discourse earlier on, after which the Giant himself intervened.
And for my part, it's not like I'm saying "Malack poked a puppy, therefore he's a Complete Monster," honestly I'm leaning towards 'evil' instead of 'Evil.'Last edited by Paseo H; 2013-02-25 at 05:22 PM.
I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish
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2013-02-25, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
It comes down to: we lack evidence. Malack is too passive, and hasn't been on-screen enough, for us to judge his Good/Evil moral position. Yes, he has helped build Tarquin's plan, but we do not know how many times he has toned down (or up) the laws Tarquin intended to pass to make the place more to his liking. Nor if he has ever tried to talk Tarquin towards greater benevolence.
What little we have seen is that of a guy who is reasonable, friendly and quite moral regarding the creation of undead (no unthinking undead, accept parental responsibility for created vampires, form deep emotional attachment to them). All else being equal, a vampire can do much worse than feed off the condemned, and lets be honest: a vampire isn't likely to be allowed that in a Good city, so what recourse has he got, even if he isn't evil himself, but to clench his fangs and put up with an Evil empire if it is the one place where he and his children don't get attacked on sight (Nale notwithstanding).
Now, much of the above is circular reasoning: I start from the assumption that Malack is LN, and see if he fits. (I believe he does). The exact same exercise can be done starting from LE. I am not trying to argue that Malack must be LN, only that he needn't be LE.
Yours,
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2013-02-25, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Allow me to put forth some context.
The only way we would all agree that Malak is Evil is if he did something that makes him a Complete Monster. Tarquin, for example, setting slaves on fire for his son's birthday present. Xykon forcing people to fight each other in his gladiator games and laughing when hobgoblins die or are tortured for his amusement.
The problem is, both in fiction and the real world, most people aren't at the extremes of good and evil. In fact, the better the fiction the more nuanced both heroes and villains are, because it's more true to life.
Which means that a well-written character should have subtleties, complexities, and not be easily pinned down to a specific alignment. Haley, for example is "chaotic good-ish". Miko started as lawful good but I suspect fell to True Neutral.
Which means that the alignment of any character in this strip is up for debate unless the Giant deliberately sets out to make the character a caricature, a walking, talking billboard a la Pilgrim's Progress, where the characters are literally named after their characteristic (Faith, Hope, Giant Despair, By-Ends) and go no deeper than a two-dimensional portrait.
Malack has not yet had a complete monster moment.
In a way, it would be easy if there was no such alignment as "neutral". If we looked at things only from the prospect of Good or Evil, Malack would unquestionably fall on the Evil end of the street. But since there is neutrality, it introduces an element of ambiguity into all these questions.
And the less extreme a character is, the more ambiguous their alignment. Remember the graph we discussed earlier and Winter helpfully drew up. When you get down close to the 2 value on any axis, the distinctions between the alignments blur. The difference between a lawful good of (2.1, 2.1) and a lawful neutral character of (1.9, 1.9) is fine. Likewise for lawful evil. Or true neutral. Or any other alignment.
Unless the character is an extreme, the character's alignment is debatable.
Most extremes are poor writing. The Giant is NOT a poor author.
And so I am reserving final judgement about Malak's alignment, because the giant is not done revealing information about him. We now know two facts about him as of 871 we did not know in 870 -- he still considers Durkon a friend, and he feeds on convicted criminals sentenced to death. When he says " a great deal of it goes to waste", I suspect this means that he does not drain his target to death, but only takes what he needs to survive.
Up until 870, we didn't even know he was a vampire. Now, as of 871, we know a little more about him.
Given these things, I think I will wait until the giant's done revealing information about him before I make a final decision about his alignment. It's not like waiting a few strips until we have more information is going to cost me anything.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2013-02-25, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
To me, that kinda sounds like you're saying "nobody can truly be proven evil unless they've crossed the Moral Event Horizon" (i.e. the "complete monster moment.")
Which, for all intents and purposes, may as well be "nobody is truly evil unless they've crossed the Moral Event Horizon."
I have to disagree with that. There are degrees of evil, and surely a person can remain within the redeemable degrees and thus be a merely 'evil' villain, without having a moment of essentially being pure evil and thus nearly impossible to come back from being a terrible person.
Think of it this way: some people are further along the road paved to Ba'ator, but some distances are easier to come back from than others.Last edited by Paseo H; 2013-02-25 at 06:05 PM.
I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish
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2013-02-25, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Brian,
As you probably know, I agree with you pretty much all the way through, so this is just a note: I think you are misreading that phrase. I take it to mean that far more people are executed in the Empire of BLood than Malack could possibly drink - thus much of that blood of the guilty is wasted (i.e. sent down the drain, undrank)
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2013-02-25, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-02-25, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
I have to disagree with that. There are degrees of evil, and surely a person can remain within the redeemable degrees and thus be a merely 'evil' villain, without having a moment of essentially being pure evil and thus nearly impossible to come back from being a terrible person.
The background I am from warns against hastily judging people as good/evil/whatever when the question is in any way ambiguous.
As a rule, we humans do not have the ability to look into a person's mind and heart, to view their actions in full context, and from that certainly determine their alignment.
Typically, we can judge fictional characters with more accuracy, because fictional characters are not humans. Depending on the type of fiction, we can have complete access to all their thoughts, their ideas, their history. If you've read Start of Darkness, for example, you know everything about Xykon that Rich Burlew wants us to know about his motivation and background -- we have all the significant information. So we CAN judge Xykon.
Malack is a more subtle character and is nowhere nearly as obviously evil.
He MAY be as evil as Xykon. But I cannot CONCLUDE that based on the information I have. My ethical outlook teaches me that I can't expect to be judged more mercifully than I judge others. So I am willing to extend Malak some benefit of the doubt until the Giant's done revealing information about him. I concede that Lawful Evil is at this point his most probable alignment, but there are enough other factors (won't drink the blood of the innocent, is friends with mortals, helps Durkon) that I cannot at this time believe this is true beyond a reasonable doubt.
As you probably know, I agree with you pretty much all the way through, so this is just a note: I think you are misreading that phrase. I take it to mean that far more people are executed in the Empire of BLood than Malack could possibly drink - thus much of that blood of the guilty is wasted (i.e. sent down the drain, undrank)
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2013-02-25, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
I feel the fact that he bothers to feed the way he does implies that he's evil, not Evil. Saying "oh, they would have been killed anyway" is an obviously insufficient justification, especially given that he helps run the empire. Still, that he brings it up at all suggests that he feels the need to salve his conscience, and consequently has got a conscience to salve.
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2013-02-25, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.
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2013-02-25, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
I don't particular care about what the rules say about alignment. I've personally always seen it as:
Good: A character who puts the needs and well-being of others above their own.
Neutral: A character who puts their own needs and well-being (and possibly those of their close friends and loved ones) first without regards to those of others.
Evil: A character whose needs and well-being come at the expense of those of others.
By my definition Malack has not done anything that proves him to be of evil alignment rather than neutral. Yes he's been shown to not particularly care about the fate of others not close to him, but he's not been shown to actively (callously) cause harm to others in the furthering of his own goals either (I don't accept Malack fighting the OotS as actively causing harm because imo the widespread acceptance of violence and battle to the death as a proper means of conflict resolution among both good and evil persons is simply one of the idiosyncrasies that come with game settings).
Though I'll be honest, mostly I'd just find it really boring if Malack was yet another lawful evil character. Having a lawful neutral character hanging with an evil adventuring party (Tarquin's) would be an interesting mirror to the more common of having a neutral character hanging with a good party.Last edited by NFB42; 2013-02-25 at 08:27 PM.
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2013-02-25, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-02-25, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
No, it's really not. That's his excuse to keep the Good Guys from outright smashing him to pieces. He showed his true colors during his fight with Elan. He put his "master plan" into action because he wants to rule the Western Kingdoms, and this was the most savvy way to go about it. He's doing it because he wants to be the Evil Overlord (Note the Capital "Evil" there) - The type of Evil Overlord who not only gets overthrown by a dashing hero in an awesome story, but also gets to Live as a GOD all the years up to that point. He revels in his Evil.
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2013-02-25, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-02-25, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Just a guess, but: commit any of the above crimes while being too infirm or weak to make a good gladiatorial spectacle, and you might find yourself on that particular Death Row.
Die.
Seriously. There may be a way to be a good vampire - but not for long.
Yeah - nah. A good vampire makes as much sense as a vegetarian piranha or a pacifist terrorist. Good requires 'respect for the dignity of sentient beings': you don't express that by drinking their blood, even if they have been condemned by your only-figuratively-bloodthirsty totalitarian BFF.
Consider Sabine. She appears to be freewilled, yesno? And yet she's a literal embodiment of chaos and evil. Which implies that if she was somehow converted to LG, she would literally cease to exist. Right then and there, she'd vanish like a puff of antimatter.
Basically, as soon as you admit magic into your universe, just about all the logic we know needs - rethinking. Including the idea of free will (assuming you believe such a thing exists in any world, but let's not get into that now). To say that Malack can 'exercise free will' to be not-evil is like saying that I can "exercise free will" to be 9' tall. It's not "will" that's preventing me from being that: it's physiology. Ditto Malack and evil. Doesn't matter what he wants to be, he's stuck with it."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2013-02-25, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Y'know, some people in our very own real world voluntarily donate their blood to help people. (I've got the needle scars to prove it!) Is it so impossible that people in a fantasy world might donate blood to support a good vampire?
What about a vampire who dumpster-dives outside the Red Cross, feeding on blood that's past its "use by" date? Or one who "cleans up" battlefields...with a little snack now and then?
The concept of a vampire engaged in a moral struggle with its nature is...not new.Last edited by jere7my; 2013-02-25 at 11:51 PM.
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2013-02-25, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Ahem.
WRONG!
Not only is a succubus going good possible in D&D, there's actually a canonical example of a succubus paladin.
And-is it really evil to desire to not die a horrible death?
If you say it is, well then I guess that everything should detect as evil, as all life will destroy all other life to not starve.
EDIT: And if you hit me with that old "a truly altruistic person would die"-yeah yeah. Pull the other one.
See how a man's true morality is, give him power, don't deprive him of it and force him into a bad situation. Soldiers, for example, are some of the greatest people in the world, but on the battlefield? Literally one of the first rules is to refer to your enemies as subhuman to avoid the guilt of killing them as long as possible.Last edited by Leliel; 2013-02-25 at 11:59 PM.
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2013-02-26, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, Malack...
Pendell, Grey_wolf, I see the point you want to make why Malack could be neutral and understand it, but I simply do not share it's a realistic interpretation.
I might be wrong, as I am wrong in disagreeing with Rich that Enor and Ganji are still in the neutral territory, but the empire is simply too evil and Malack is simply too involved in the entire scheme to, for me, still being considered neutral.
You are either part of that scheme and are friends with the people who are "behind it" (Malack might not be "behind it" just like Tarquin, we do not know) or you are not. With things this thoroughly evil you're not sitting there year after years and watch it (and take part of it) if you don't agree.
No matter what lies Tarquin told him, the Empire of Blood is too obvious in what it does for those who are in it.
I consider Malack to be evil and I consider it that much that not even a Word from Rich in regards how he sees Malack would shake me in that interpretation (based on his relationship with Tarquin who's not hiding at all who and what he is once he's out of the public view).Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!