OOTS #873 - The Discussion Thread

[Shale]

My real curiosity is whether or not Durkon targeted Malack with the Mass Death Ward or not.

Presumably not, since Malack was in frame when the spell took effect and didn't have the aura around him. It would have been a good idea, though!

[Canisius]

I really had assumed Durkon was a lower level than Malack. This comic didn't really resolve that question, I think (I have only passing experience with D&D), but Durkon had arranged his spells strategically so even if Malack is a few levels ahead, the vampire Lizard wound up with a fight on his hands. Handy that the spells Durkon had prepared for Xykon wound up helping him in a battle with a Cleric of Death who happened to be a vampire.

Just reminds me of the RPGs and card games I've played. Sheer power can often be undone by a strategically-minded player. Actually, this works in Monopoly, too. "HERE IS MY BIG GUN!!" - "HERE IS MY WARD AGAINST THE STUFF YOUR BIG GUN DOES!! BECAUSE I EXPECTED IT!!".

And there are so many possibilities out there: the arrival of V, the arrival of Xykon, the OOTS, the return of Girard or any number of random characters. What a great story!

Dang I love this comic.

[Bundin]

Squeep! My two favourite characters metaphysically slugging it out! That's both a Squee and an Eep! moment there, I don't want either of them to lose, but they can't both win :| I guess I'll just root for the cat then.

[Snails]

Thanks for pointing that out, Gnoman. I had not read the vampire rules carefully in a while.

Malack could very easily be killed here.

By my reading of the vampire fast healing rules, if reduced to 0 or fewer hit points Malack would be forced in gaseous form and stuck in gaseous form until he reaches his coffin. He only has 2 hours to accomplish that.

When vampires are playing defense against meddlesome heroes, the distance to the coffin is not an issue. Here it is.

In fact, being a vampire away from home has real disadvantages at higher level play. A normal character can go down to -9 hit points and be brought quickly back into fighting condition. Heck, a normal character can be killed and brought back to fight later that day. For a vampire there is less flexibility here.

I am not suggesting that Malack is definitely going to lose. But having been hit by this Heal, not casting Word of Recall is a high risk choice. Surely he could Harm himself, but he is getting thin on offensive spells, too. Durkon is likely to outlast him.

[Prowl]

I was very pleasantly surprised to see that for the first time in years, I actually missed a strip. Yay for hand healing and better update schedule!

[Trixie]

I really had assumed Durkon was a lower level than Malack. This comic didn't really resolve that question, I think (I have only passing experience with D&D), but Durkon had arranged his spells strategically so even if Malack is a few levels ahead, the vampire Lizard wound up with a fight on his hands. Handy that the spells Durkon had prepared for Xykon wound up helping him in a battle with a Cleric of Death who happened to be a vampire.

He is lower level. Problem is, Malack's "adjustment" of at least 8 levels means even at level 20, his 'Cleric' side is only at best 12 levels, less than Durkon's ~14. Vampire abilities kind of don't make up for it.

Also, nothing so far Durkon used would be even remotely useful against Xykon, maybe against Redcloak, but Reddy can actually use 9th level spells, beating Durkon by default.

[Needle]

So cool to be having the strips coming this fast <3 And a nice opening on the battle scene

[SinsI]

If Belkar lives through it, Durkon might need to take some lessons from V - so many Explosive Runes to cast!

[Bernemer]

tbh, while I enjoy roleplaying-fantasy stories, I don't care too much about the rules...

Therefore, my personal pet theory (okay: more like "my desperate hope" - I play rather simple-minded, but good-natured dwarves as most of my roleplaying chars, and can't stand vampiric/undead/lizardfolk types...) for the next panel is one where Malack is down to +1 HP, does another bit of high-strung monologue about how he and Durkon are "totally not different at all, seriously, may my deity strike me dead should I ever lie" etc. - and then gets, for the moment, finished off by Mr. Scruffy, with the feline equivalent of a "sneak attack, bitch!"-move.

Another more philosophical thought: wouldn't sun lotion remove the protection from the sun for an undead, since it adds sun protection for the living? In that case, I sure hope a certain ranger always has some with him... as that would potentially add some hilarity and even more insult to (terminally lethal) injury.

[EclipseDarkSun]

Is it possible that V's epic magic spell killed living relatives of Malack, effectively framing Nale by accident? Just occurred to me, though the timelines probably don't mesh well. Or that if V wanders in, he might conflate the two situations? Just a stray thought..

[Vectner]

Damn, maybe Durkon can do it all his-self

[TRH]

Is it possible that V's epic magic spell killed living relatives of Malack, effectively framing Nale by accident? Just occurred to me, though the timelines probably don't mesh well. Or that if V wanders in, he might conflate the two situations? Just a stray thought..

Highly doubtful, since I'm pretty sure the rebellion where Nale fought Tarquin happened before the Linear Guild went to the Dungeon of Dorukan. Note that in the relevant flashback Nale's in his chain mail outfit, so it at least predated his schemes in Cliffport, which in turn predate the Familicide.

[Shale]

Is it possible that V's epic magic spell killed living relatives of Malack, effectively framing Nale by accident? Just occurred to me, though the timelines probably don't mesh well. Or that if V wanders in, he might conflate the two situations? Just a stray thought..

Nope, wouldn't work. Nale killed Malack's "children" in his rebellion against the Empress, which happened before he left the Western Continent and met the Order.

[EclipseDarkSun]

Highly doubtful, since I'm pretty sure the rebellion where Nale fought Tarquin happened before the Linear Guild went to the Dungeon of Dorukan. Note that in the relevant flashback Nale's in his chain mail outfit, so it at least predated his schemes in Cliffport, which in turn predate the Familicide.

Well the rebellion sure. Not sure about their more recent interactions or perceived interactions. He's been accused by Tarquin of killing his ninth? wife, whom we now know was killed by the epic spell (dragon tattoo on cheek). (unless I'm mixing up wives)

[Haleth]

Is it possible that V's epic magic spell killed living relatives of Malack, effectively framing Nale by accident? Just occurred to me, though the timelines probably don't mesh well. Or that if V wanders in, he might conflate the two situations? Just a stray thought..

Er, I don't think so. Tarquin mentions that Malack's children "have been dead for years" (can't remember the strip number—it's the one where Tarquin, Malack, and Kilkil join the Linear Guild) and V's Familicide spell was cast pretty recently.

[EclipseDarkSun]

Er, I don't think so. Tarquin mentions that Malack's children "have been dead for years" (can't remember the strip number—it's the one where Tarquin, Malack, and Kilkil join the Linear Guild) and V's Familicide spell was cast pretty recently.

Good point.. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

[Millygoat]

Hrmm....hard to tell with the framing of the last panel, but aside from the scratches he got from the early thorbolt, doesn't look like he's much more injured from the Heal. Most likely the damage just hasn't shown up yet, but it is possible that Malak has taken precautions against his positive energy vulnerability, such as life ward or the like. Then again, we didn't get a little fizzle like the inflict did against Durkon, so maybe not. Still, I hope our favorite Albino lizardpire has something up his sleeve, grown oddly attached to him.

[EmperorSarda]

Is it possible that V's epic magic spell killed living relatives of Malack, effectively framing Nale by accident? Just occurred to me, though the timelines probably don't mesh well. Or that if V wanders in, he might conflate the two situations? Just a stray thought..

Given that Malack's "children" are undead vampires/vampire spawns that he made, they would not be affected by the spell. 1. Cause they are not blood relatives. 2. They're undead. Familicide only affects living creatures.

[EclipseDarkSun]

Hrmm....hard to tell with the framing of the last panel, but aside from the scratches he got from the early thorbolt, doesn't look like he's much more injured from the Heal. Most likely the damage just hasn't shown up yet, but it is possible that Malak has taken precautions against his positive energy vulnerability, such as life ward or the like. Then again, we didn't get a little fizzle like the inflict did against Durkon, so maybe not. Still, I hope our favorite Albino lizardpire has something up his sleeve, grown oddly attached to him.

Maybe he can just Harm himself.. assuming he's got that spell level..

[Haleth]

Hrmm....hard to tell with the framing of the last panel, but aside from the scratches he got from the early thorbolt, doesn't look like he's much more injured from the Heal. Most likely the damage just hasn't shown up yet, but it is possible that Malak has taken precautions against his positive energy vulnerability, such as life ward or the like. Then again, we didn't get a little fizzle like the inflict did against Durkon, so maybe not. Still, I hope our favorite Albino lizardpire has something up his sleeve, grown oddly attached to him.

Remember in the strip when Malack used Harm against Nale, the effects were only shown in the next panel. Heal probably hasn't taken full effect yet.

[EclipseDarkSun]

Given that Malack's "children" are undead vampires/vampire spawns that he made, they would not be affected by the spell. 1. Cause they are not blood relatives. 2. They're undead. Familicide only affects living creatures.

That was implied, not guaranteed. Otherwise, fair enough. Is the Familicide spell in the books or just constructed uniquely according to the rules by Rich?

[Haleth]

That was implied, not guaranteed. Otherwise, fair enough. Is the Familicide spell in the books or just constructed uniquely according to the rules by Rich?

Malack's children are vampire spawn. Otherwise he wouldn't have commented that he "should make more children" when he bit Belkar.

[EmperorSarda]

That was implied, not guaranteed. Otherwise, fair enough. Is the Familicide spell in the books or just constructed uniquely according to the rules by Rich?

It is a spell made up by The Giant. And he uses the words "still living ancestors" in describing how the spell works. Which means undead relatives are not affected.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Maybe he can just Harm himself.. assuming he's got that spell level..

Yeah. He does.

[JackRackham]

May I take the time to remind people that Heal is exactly as dangerous as Harm and that Clerics get a good Will save (as well as high Wisdom), so it's a bit early to be declaring anybody dead?

Well, unless Malack has 23HD or got really lucky rolling those d12s, it is probably save or be destroyed (at least for now), as it does 150 damage from a level 15 or higher cleric. Even a save would only halve the damage. Specifically, if Malack is has 17-18 HD, average hp would be 117-123 hp. No matter what, this spell should put him in the "HOLY ****!" zone.

[St Fan]

As I wouldn't be able to sleep unless I saw this rule myself (a bit of OCPD ), I went and found it - in the official 3.5e FAQ found here (the top link), the Harm wording is (around page 83):

Granted, this wording is in a question (whether Harm damage causes instant death from massive damage), but the answer specifically states:

Which means that someone with 50 or less hitpoints wouldn't take the full 50 points of damage (i.e. only 49 points of damage at 50 hit points). They also offer a house rule that you can't die from massive damage from Harm, which according to them better suits the intention of the spell (i.e. unable to kill people).

That would indeed suit the original flavor of the Harm spell, and also make it quite usuful if you wanted to make sure to capture even powerful enemies alive, but don't mind weakening them a lot.

As a side note: honestly, WHO ever used the massive damage rule? I never cared for it in 2nd edition where it was an optional rule, I'd probably ignore it completely in 3.5 too.

[Da'Shain]

He is lower level. Problem is, Malack's "adjustment" of at least 8 levels means even at level 20, his 'Cleric' side is only at best 12 levels, less than Durkon's ~14. Vampire abilities kind of don't make up for it.

Also, nothing so far Durkon used would be even remotely useful against Xykon, maybe against Redcloak, but Reddy can actually use 9th level spells, beating Durkon by default.

Malak's adjustment is even worse than that, remember -- he's got +8 LA from vampire, but he's also got 2 racial hit dice and a +1 LA from being a Lizardfolk, so even before his cleric levels he's already ECL 11. Based on his use of Harm, he has to be at least an 11th level cleric -- putting him at ECL 22. At that point, it'll be nearly impossible for him to find a suitable challenge, as he states in this comic -- especially one that, possessing only 13 real HD and 11th level cleric casting, he won't get immediately killed by. The likelihood of him being any higher is extremely remote if he follows the normal XP rules (as he implies he does); pretty much the only reasonable way he could be is if he got turned into a vampire when he was already a higher level Cleric and thus bypassed the need to gain XP for those vampire "levels".

Also, why wouldn't the spells he's so far used be useful against Xykon? Thor's Lightning admittedly won't, but Mass Death Ward will be insanely helpful against Xykon's Energy Drain/Finger of Death shenanigans, and Heal is always useful if popped against an Undead. They'll be less useful against Redcloak, true, but higher level casters don't necessarily always win.

As a side note, Implosion might or might not be countered by Death Ward -- it doesn't have the [Death] descriptor, but it is a magical effect that allows a Fort save and slays instantly, which is all that is required to be a death attack that is blocked by Death Ward, so many DMs would rule that Mass Death Ward is in fact also very useful against Redcloak's new swagger.

[Spuddles]

Or the rules of Casting Defensively. I guess The Giant didn't feel the need to explain every little rule minutiae.

At there level, they probably can't even fail on a natural 1. The DCs are quite low. 15+spell level. You get level +3+con mod (cha for undead).

Well, if Malak didn't make is saving throw, he's almost certainly been dropped to 1 hp (Average hp for even a 20th level vampire (All vampires have d12 hit dice, but no con bonus) is 130. Durkon's heal does 150 damage to undead since we know he can cast 8th level spells and is thus at least 18th level, but Heal cant put undead below 1 hp). Pity durkon didn't have a quickened CLW prepared, or he'd have dropped Malak this turn.

Well, pity for Durkon, anyway. I, on the other hand, am eagerly awaiting Malak's rebuttal

He may have been created in a desecrated area, potentially with a shrine. That could give him 20-40 more HP.

He is lower level. Problem is, Malack's "adjustment" of at least 8 levels means even at level 20, his 'Cleric' side is only at best 12 levels, less than Durkon's ~14. Vampire abilities kind of don't make up for it.

Also, nothing so far Durkon used would be even remotely useful against Xykon, maybe against Redcloak, but Reddy can actually use 9th level spells, beating Durkon by default.

Ah, but when he joins Team Antagonist, does he use a vampires level adjustment, or challenge rating

[gorocz]

Malack's children are vampire spawn. Otherwise he wouldn't have commented that he "should make more children" when he bit Belkar.

It could be theoretically possible that he had living children once before he was a Vampire and now, when he is unable to procreate biologically, he came to a realization that the only children he could make "continute heritage" is by creating another Vampire. But yes, it seems obvious by backtracking all the previously mentioned hints that it was vampires created by thim. We don't know whether they were Vampire spawns or Vampires either (Vampire spawn is created by Energy drain, Blood drain creates full Vampires for targets with HD>4). We don't know anything about Malack's "children" so we can't tell which he created. It could be even possible that he once had real biological children and then turned them into Vampires!

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

Speaking as someone who ended up playing a character for exactly one round due to sucking on a Harm spell ... damn.

Amazing fight, particularly due to the emotions behind it. It's wonderful storytelling that Malack manages to be worthy of respect, competent, admirable in many ways, yet still dangerous and fundamentally evil. And Durkon manages to be closed-minded, cruel, blindly judgemental, yet still basically correct in his actions.

To the Giant: Your battle scenes are fantastic. Characters should act according to what they feel is best at the time, not what's "objectively optimal".

To the poster who mentioned the leanan sidhe: I love you.