OOTS #873 - The Discussion Thread

[baerdith]

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

But the thing is, MOST PCs are played like that. The only "optimized" characters I have seen are on geekboards. Even if a PC starts as a minmax, the story will enevitably lead to changes.

How many of you have played D&D "perfectly"?
ost people WILL be idots in a battle. What's that quote "The best plan in the world doesn't survive the first attack"


I also want to say to Rich, its YOUR world, we are just grateful to be allowed to visit.

Keep up the GREAT work!

[rgrekejin]

It would be pleasingly symmetric if Malack healed himself with a Harm spell.

Heh. Yup, Malack is one quick bit of self-Harm away from being right back in this fight.

...sorry, I couldn't resist.

But, at least if he's casting it on himself, he's not casting it on Durkon?

[iyaerP]

Yep. Sounds about right.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!?!

I am very much entertained. This update was awesome.

[Haluesen]

Wow, just wow. This is all absolutely crazy. XD Can't wait to see how this goes, I hope we have quite a bit more fight to see. This is excellent. I say wonderful work Giant, a bow before your greatness. And also thank you for the frequent updating here in a time of much excitement. As just one fan of the so so many here, I'm sure you get that a lot but still, thanks for this story.

[Themrys]

The word you're looking for is "vitalist".

Durkon is so stubborn that I'm sure he is capable of internalized vitalism.

[Sir_Leorik]

Regarding rules and strategies, what makes Rich so great as a story teller is that the characters are CHARACTERS and not PLAYERS. Players can spend hours a day, every day, plotting strategies to "win" in a game. Then when it comes to the game, a single round of combat - six seconds - can stretch out into an hour as players say "hang on a second, let me double check this rule" and "wait, let me do the math here before I tell you my action."

In my experience when I was DMing 3.5 players with that level of tactical superiority, that six second round rarely lasted more than ten minutes. Sometimes they could finish off a single enemy in the surprise round. 3.5 had balance issues. Not so much in the core mechanics, but in the parts that could be cobbled together, like something stitched together in Grubwiggler's lab and set loose on an unsuspecting DM. On the other hand, 4E can be very punishing to a new player who doesn't realize he's not playing 3.5, and distributes his ability scores evenly. Ouch. Remeber kids: Always make sure you have at least a 16 in your attack stat before adding your racial ability bonus!

[Barsoom]

I recently discovered the Bad Wbcomics Wiki which has quite a few reviews of various comics; some of which I read, some of which I've merely heard of, and plenty that I didn't know anything about.

Now, there are plenty of comics I've tried and didn't like, but I never hated any of them enough to go and write up a complete review outlining each and every little mistake or error the author made.

That actually requires a very specific and rarely-encountered combination of love and hate, built on an unstable basis of a demented personality. And all this construction must hold up for long enough to actually type up those comments. Very rare.

[Wrecan]

While it would be hilarious if Durkon had thought to also include *Malack* in the Mass Death Ward (and thus render self-"Harm" ineffective), we saw the spell visibly target Belkar, but not Malack.

Also, Malack would get a Will save he'd probably pass. Though I agree that would be hilarious!

[Deepbluediver]

Hey, I resent that! I happen to like Malack quite a bit. He is a complex and multifaceted character with interesting motivations. I also fully believe that he is a Lawful Evil abomination against life itself, a bloodsucking creature of the night who deserves to be tracked down to his lair and have a stake driven through his heart. The two are not mutually exclusive!

Nor or they mutually inclusive. You can like a villian as a character just fine without going total fanboy on us. I'm a big fan of Tarquin, despite all the hate he gets for his Batman-ish qualities. But I don't assume that simply because I like him that means he's either good or invincible. I simply said SOME people adopt this attitude.

Chip on the shouler much?

[Nymrod]

Hey everyone

I just logged in to ask, why do people find it so notable that someone, anyone, hates the undead? I find it perfectly natural and I wonder why Durkon gets criticized about it.

Also I think it would in my opinion be perfect dramatically if Durkon does take an AoO against Malack casting a Harm next round. He starts casting and gets whacked with the hammer. It still means nothing since killing a vampire is just not as simple as winning a fight.

[pendell]

I am sorry to hear that the feedback the Giant gets from these forums dampens his enthusiasm for writing battle scenes. Because he writes good ones. Entertaining ones. The one I'm thinking of right now was the battle with the huge pit fiend back on the islands.


I enjoy this comic. If I discuss tactics, it is to improve my understanding of the game with other D&D players who are also reading these threads NOT criticize the author's grasp of tactics.

I see these conversations as sort of like armchair combatants refighting the battle of Waterloo hundreds of years after it was actually fought.

It's easy to criticize decisions when we're all sitting at our computers and we aren't, say, being charged by a 6' tall vampire with glowing red eyes. We have hours of time to leisurely consider the best possible action. Durkon had six seconds.

That's the difference between an armchair strategist and a combat veteran. Anyone can find the right answer six hours after the fact. A combat veteran is someone who can make a "good enough" decision in microseconds. It may not be the optimal decision. Heck, in hindsight it may have been a terrible one. But the fact is, he's alive and standing here, and his instincts kept him alive. That means it was good enough.

So, I , personally, would find it less realistic and entertaining if the characters did make the optimal decision all the time. Because combat is not chess. The more they make decisions rapidly and by instinct, the more it feels like a real fight and not ... not a bunch of college kids sitting at a table over beer and pretzels. Real combat is fought by trained instinct, not with complex spreadsheets.

So I think it is a hallmark of good writing if our characters make split-second decisions in the heat of the moment. And it is precisely because the characters are written well that their decisions are suboptimal and deserving of criticism by tactical experts.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tanonev]

I would imagine that Malack, having suddenly and accidentally come out to a friend, and having said friend utterly reject him as a "monster" that needs to be stopped, might be juuuust a bit less than rational in this fight

[Sir_Leorik]

Well, yes. But I would chalk that up to good writing on the Giant's part.

His audience is not just D&D gamers.

A savvy player would never have Malack cast a negative energy spell on Durkon. A savvy player would never have Durkon attempt to turn. A savvy player would never cast Poison on a Dwarf Cleric. A savvy player would find using Heal in this manner very obvious.

But the larger audience cannot be counted on knowing these things. The Giant is demonstrating tactics that could be critically important in a fight with Xykon. He is carefully setting expectations on how the epic showdown could potentially play out.

Snails, I agree with you! Yesterday I thought that it was a foregone conclusion that Durkon was toast. Now I have hope that he might have a fighting chance because I've finally seen the way Malack's tactics are being portrayed. I think that Malack might have grown complacent with Tarquin calling the shots for their party. And Durkon has never been a slouch in the fighting department. I think that the fight is more even than I assumed it would be yesterday. I think that the conflict might take several strips as Durkon and Malack each try to gain the upper hand in this battle.

[Tomada]

I am now going to rant:



Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

I always feel you have things right Giant. And it is not to be expected from then to be mixmaxed.

For one, they were not expecting a 1v1 fight. Specially not a 1v1 fight against one another. And even then they don't know enough about each other to make the best tactical decisions.

From a meta viewpoint there will always be better ways to fight. But the characters have limited knowledge about the rules, the available options, the enemies and everything. They will never have optimal preparation.

And one thing is certain. Durkon was preparing to fight a Cleric AND a Undead(Redcloak and Xykon), so he has a great deal of advantage there too.

[Tomada]

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

A round has passed. Vampires have fast healing.

[Deepbluediver]

Hey everyone

I just logged in to ask, why do people find it so notable that someone, anyone, hates the undead? I find it perfectly natural and I wonder why Durkon gets criticized about it.

Also I think it would in my opinion be perfect dramatically if Durkon does take an AoO against Malack casting a Harm next round. He starts casting and gets whacked with the hammer. It still means nothing since killing a vampire is just not as simple as winning a fight.

Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people have the same attitude as Tsukiko: all undead are Edward (of Twilight infamy, and ignoring that he was an exception even in that universe). Or at the very least they think Undead are like the X-men, deadly and dangerous through no fault of their own, and persecuted for things beyond their control.

They seem to forget that 99% of undead are mindless, merciless husks, composed of rotting flesh and the remains of people you probably knew, who would like nothing more than to snack on your tender, tender frontal lobe.


Edit: I'm gonna channel Cracked.com here for a minute: it's kind of like how we always see the underdog win in the movies, so that's what we expect to happen in real life, despite not being true the majority of the time (that's why they are the underdog to start with).

When you have a movie or a book or comic or anything where the tender, thoughtful, humans-are-our-friends "monster" gets the most screetime, it's easy to forget that the other 20 members of his family are the complete opposite.

[DemonicAngel]

Just came around to say that with all the excitement of everything happening, and the fast pacing of the comics, I'm squeezing with glee each time i see a new comic is up.

Thank you, Rich, for brightening my somewhat hard days!

[weeping eagle]

$10 on KRAKAKOOOOOOOOM within 3 strips at 500:1 odds.

[Nymrod]

Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people have the same attitude as Tsukiko: all undead are Edward (of Twilight infamy, and ignoring that he was an exception even in that univers). Or at the very least thinking Undead are like the X-men, deadly and dangerous through no fault of their own, and persecuted for things beyond their control.

They seem to forget that 99% of undead are mindless, merciless husks, composed of rotting flesh and human remains, who would like nothing more than to snack on your tender, tender frontal lobe.

The thing is on a D&D campaign world, an adventurer chooses to be undead. If a vampire is unwillingly afflicted, he just has to get his friends to kill and raise him; same for any other intelligent undead. Being undead come with particular cravings of a clearly selfish morality; you choose to energy drain and blood drain people when you insist on being a vampire when you don't have to be.

[Gnoman]

That actually requires a very specific and rarely-encountered combination of love and hate, built on an unstable basis of a demented personality. And all this construction must hold up for long enough to actually type up those comments. Very rare.

I also feel compelled that several of the "bad" comics on that list are popular anchors of the webcomic community, and they feature on the list as much for the reviewer not liking that style of comic (Real Life, for example, is heavily panned for being a slice-of-life comic with serviceable art, which is exactly what people want and expect from it.) or deliberately inserting their own message into it and then complaining that it portrays that message badly.

[Raineh Daze]

Hating mindless undead on principle makes perfect sense.

When you start to deal with those that retain all their mental faculties? Then there's a bit of an issue. Doesn't one setting have good-aligned elf liches, of all things?

The thing is on a D&D campaign world, an adventurer chooses to be undead. If a vampire is unwillingly afflicted, he just has to get his friends to kill and raise him; same for any other intelligent undead. Being undead come with particular cravings of a clearly selfish morality; you choose to energy drain and blood drain people when you insist on being a vampire when you don't have to be.

Resurrect, not Raise Dead. Harder to get at, more expensive.

[ThePhantasm]

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

For what its worth, I've yet to see a battle scene that I haven't enjoyed in OOTS... I enjoy the "special effects" of each battle. The V / Xykon fight and the Roy / Thog arena fight are definitely highlights.

I wouldn't let it hurt your enthusiasm too much. Its the internet, there will always be people who love something and people who don't love it. You can't please everyone, no matter how hard you try.

[Sir_Leorik]

And one thing is certain. Durkon was preparing to fight a Cleric AND a Undead(Redcloak and Xykon), so he has a great deal of advantage there too.

Roy and Durkon have been discussing strategies and tactics to use against Xykon and Redcloak since they set sail for the Western Continent. It makes sense that Durkon would be getting ready for a challenge like this. (Though I doubt their plans called for splitting the party! )

My guess is that Malack is either rustier than Tarquin is or he became reliant on Tarquin's guidance in combat.

[Brom]

*snip*

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, I agree with all of this; by and large, tactical soundness of a character is most plausibly (in my mind) determined by their Int, Wis, overall experience, and the situation. A lot of the 'unsound,' decisions (even ones that are outright called out on as being unsound) actually make a whole lot of sense.

My confusion in this specific instance had a lot to do with two Clerics (same class) who had spent a lot of time around one another talking about their adventuring days (knew one another's capabilities) in a fight they had both seen coming for between the past 20 seconds to two minutes (so the chance to be somewhat collected, especially with their Wisdom/Will Saves) and Malak's own intellect (he at least SEEMS very well versed between his magical library and how quickly he sorted out the limits of Nale's escape, although at Malak's level you could very well have an Intelligence PENALTY and still seem savvy if you put enough ranks in a skill; D&D is funny like that) that Malak could have made some very sound decisions pretty believably, or at least showcased some caution in knowing which decisions would make him die screaming.

Stuff like how Tsukiko tried to teleport out of grapple (even though the room was warded) or how Vaarsuvius used Dimensional Anchor on Xykon (arrogant enough to think s/he'd win) or how Vaarsuvius tried to just banish the Pit Fiend (s/he likes to be prepared and likes easy one spell solutions as a wizard) before just cutting into it with evocations (evocation is V's specialty) made sense, even if none of these things WORKED OUT; the Wis/Int of the characters, overall experience, and circumstances all made these things feel believable, whereas Malak's own decisions seem somewhat less so to me (M is a cleric, high Int/Wis, longtime adventurer, etc).

Mostly (owning up to my own fanboyism?), I was bothered because Malak dying in a one sided fight seems to be a lesser send off than I think a character like that deserves; although maybe undercutting the appearance of competence that Tarquin's group has is Giant's goal? Malak dying ignobly and brutally to Durkon would certainly do that. I try not to ask, 'What does the author want me to think,' directly when reading something XD

An epic fight, regardless of the intelligence displayed, is always awesome to see drawn, so it makes me a tad pensive to see a character I'm attached to seemingly beaten back so one-sidedly. (I still WANT to see him beaten one way or another, he's not a protagonist)

[Dwy]

Could this be one of the kickstarter-encores we're seeing right now?

It'd make a lot of sense from a marketing perspective too, to run constantly for the first while after recovery (recovery to being able to draw, that is, more than that I don't know), so that we, the readers go back to our old "time to check giantitp.com"-habits.

[Doran]

It's not over yet...

[Skull the Troll]

In regards to the Giants' rant: Bravo Giant, not only are all of these people working against the interests of the story, they are exactly the sort of pain in the %$^ I hate playing D&D with. We have a standing rule at our table, "The DM may change any rule that is brought up at the table." If your elf ranger is immune to the sleep effect, you may not be, or the sleep effect may become an acid effect, who knows? these people kinda take over the forums here too. Go back and look at any comic update post. pages 1-2 are grats and wows, somewhere around page three people starting bring up rules points and by page 6-8 its practically a flame war. Some where after that someone posts the link to your statements about the rules are your fuzzy little plaything and you can alter them whenever you darn well please. Thread dies off shortly thereafter.

Thanks for all the rapid updates. I absolutely love seeing that little one box on my RSS feed!

[Rogar Demonblud]

The only thing about this turn of events that upsets me is that it seriously cuts down on the probability of Belkar going vampire, which is about the only way I can see for him to get the WIS boost needed to cast 1st level spells.

Mainly because that's a vital prereq for something I've wanted to see ever since he threw an angry housecat at Tsukiko's face.

See if you can finish the progression.

1) Mr. Scruffy
2) Magic Fang
3) __________!

[zimmerwald1915]

1) Mr. Scruffy
2) Magic Fang
3) __________!

3) Mehrwert?

[ThePhantasm]

Could this be one of the kickstarter-encores we're seeing right now?

Check the Kickstarter thread for Rich's answer to this question.