OOTS #873 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

Not only this, Xykon was smart enough to think of getting anti-positive energy ring, so why a cleric wouldn't think of the same? It should be obvious and priority #1 for Malack, especially if he only ever wanted to heal his allies...

Malack's "aargh" seems to indicate that he felt pain at having heal cast upon him, though he does not seem to be sporting any new wounds. I guess the jury's still out on whether he actually took damage or not.

[Adeptus]

Oh man, 75-150 damage to a character with no con modifier. Barring Gaseous Form, Malack is in some serious trouble here.

d12 hit die though... but between that and the lightning he has to be really hurting now.

[Deepbluediver]

Not only this, Xykon was smart enough to think of getting anti-positive energy ring, so why a cleric wouldn't think of the same? It should be obvious and priority #1 for Malack, especially if he only ever wanted to heal his allies...

Sensing switch in first frame of next comic :<

I dunno, that "ARRRRGHHGH!" seems pretty definitive.


Edit: Swordsaged AGAIN! Dammit! Must. Learn. To Type. Faster.

[gorocz]

Actually the way I read it is that if one saves for half damage, Harm cannot reduce you below 1 hit point.

Otherwise, (if you fail the save) it looks like Harm is totally capable of killing someone.

I read the srd on Harm twice today. First time having it seen used in the comics (it's always nice to refresh yourself on the rules) and then after seeing your post. After the first time, I thought it's to 1hp even when not saved (and I'm guessing others did too, possibly because it used to take all but 1d4 hp if you didn't save before 3.5e). Only after reading your post, I realised that the senteces are split and the one with the 1hp rule is the one where target saves.

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And not a single save was thrown that day!

Well, Durkon saved against the Poison spell... Even with his racial resistance bonus, there was a decent chance he wouldn't make it (DC about 19? fort. save 9+2+1?). (In hindsight, I'm not sure if that wasn't meant as a joke, I presumed you meant that nobody saved against anything and after looking up all these numbers I don't feel like deleting them... )

[Raineh Daze]

Remaining a vampire, I can understand as an objection. Not seeking out your immediate destruction? Um, unless there's a 13th level cleric and 5,000GP of diamonds on hand, you're probably better off not turning into a pile of ash so immediately.

Just because there's an afterlife, doesn't mean that you should be so eager to get to it if there's anything important to focus on.

[Essex]

Failed monster knowledge check. I mean it appears pretty clear that there aren't a TON of dwarves living in the overland. It's quite possible that Malak has not had a ton of contact with them.

It's interesting to see characters mess up something that a player never would because you can't help but metagame even if you try to avoid it.

Well, from an in game perspective, knowing things about Dwarves is Knowledge (Local) while knowing things about Undead is Knowledge (Religion). Clerics normally have the second as a class skill, but not the first. Since Knowledge skills are also Intelligence based, and Intelligence isn't a priority for Clerics, it is entirely understandable that Malak doesn't know offhand that Durkon has a bonus to his saves versus poison.

Regarding the course of the fight, I'm legitimately worried about a last minute turn-around. Remember the Oracle's prediction that Durkon would return home "posthumously." I'd always feared that this meant Xykon would kill him and bring him back as a zombie, but turning him into a vampire would be even worse. Malak's respect for Durkon and desire for a new family also gives him a strong motive to turn him.

[Sir_Leorik]

It takes a vast amount of willpower to actively seek out your own demise. I really do wish 'not doing your best to die' would stop being declared evil so readily.

That is what Erasmus van Richten chose to do: rather than exist as a Vampire slave of Baron Metis, forced to drink human blood and obey the Baron's perverse whims (Erasmus was barely 14 when the gypsies kidnapped him) Erasmus snuck out of the Baron's manor, found his father (Dr. van Richten had been searching for his son with the magical aid of Azalin Rex, king of Darkon) and begged his father to slay him. The father and son hugged till just before morning, when Dr. van Richten staked his son and saw his body burn up in the sunlight.

Baron Metis decided that since the good doctor had taken away his paramour he would repay the doctor in kind: he murdered Dr. van Richten's wife. The whole affair set Dr. Rudolph van Richten to become the greatest hero the Ravenloft campaign ever knew. All because his son Erasmus would not murder people to continue his own existence.

[ti'esar]

It's a bit jerkish, as a DM, to decide that a racial bonus that has been present since character creation should be met with overturning rules, thereby nullifying part of the reason to pick that race in the first place.

I have to agree. There's a big difference between "not requiring your story to follow the consensus beliefs of metagamers" and "suddenly changing known and established rules on your PCs". One is telling an entertaining story, the other is a fairly extreme form of railroading.

[Barsoom]

Well, from an in game perspective, knowing things about Dwarves is Knowledge (Local) while knowing things about Undead is Knowledge (Religion). Clerics normally have the second as a class skill, but not the first. Since Knowledge skills are also Intelligence based, and Intelligence isn't a priority for Clerics, it is entirely understandable that Malak doesn't know offhand that Durkon has a bonus to his saves versus poison.

And since he doesn't have Knowledge (Nature) as a class skill, he also wouldn't know that Bears live in caves and fight with their claws. The D&D skill system is weird

[zimmerwald1915]

Remaining a vampire, I can understand as an objection. Not seeking out your immediate destruction? Um, unless there's a 13th level cleric and 5,000GP of diamonds on hand, you're probably better off not turning into a pile of ash so immediately.

Just because there's an afterlife, doesn't mean that you should be so eager to get to it if there's anything important to focus on.

That's some deft goalpost moving, sirrah. You never mentioned any important things a just-sired vampire might need to get done. But really, most people, even in D&D worlds, don't have to concern themselves with saving the world. Most people give some weight to the fate of their soul, and refusing to murder people to prolong your own existence in the mortal realm strikes me as a fairly good way to not have it tortured for eternity. Conversely, accepting that you must murder people in order to [un]live strikes me as the kind of thing that gets you tortured for all eternity if someone does manage to end your existence in the mortal realm.

[Kish]

There are two objections to be made. First, someone like Malack has a vast amount of will power by definition. Second, that in a world with a verifiable afterlife, demise in the mortal realm is not demise as such, but simply a transition to another state of being. Dying might hurt, but it is not the end.

Especially if you rule an empire and can easily arrange for another cleric to cast Resurrection on you right after you've been destroyed, returning you to the world of the genuinely-living.

P.S. If you consider it likely that there is not a single non-Malack level 13+ cleric in the Empire who Malack could trust with his resurrection, even with Tarquin there to persuade cooperation, he doesn't need that high-level a cleric; he could easily make a Resurrection scroll a lower-level cleric could use.
P. P. S. If you have a way around that, if Malack doesn't want to be a bloodsucking corpse, the solution walked in the door around 150 strips ago, is someone Malack was prepared to walk away from helping Tarquin rather than fight, and is established as having Resurrection prepared today.

No, he chooses to remain a vampire. And to feed on the blood of the convicted-in-a-kangaroo-court.

[ThePhantasm]

I suspect that not only does he choose to remain a vampire... he might have very well chosen to become a vampire.

[ti'esar]

I'm not sure why people expected Malack to be both Epic and supercompetent in battle. He utterly failed at catching Elan when he thought he was Nale. He also failed to catch Nale on the balcony, but I'll let that one slide since he was visibly distressed and caught off-guard.

It's probably because he's partners with Tarquin, who is probably not Epic but is higher level then the Order, and certainly appears to be supercompetent in battle.

[Whelk]

Durkon's always been my favorite character, and it's been awesome to see him being particularly effective recently. Seems to be content to work in the background or off-panel a lot, and gets a raw deal in the name of comic relief every now and then (who doesn't in this comic?), but it's always great when he gets some time to shine.

I really like Malack, but now that we're down to this, I hope Durkon manages a solid victory, even if it could somehow involve sparing Malack.

Sorry, don't have anything of substance to contribute to the thread, just had to chime in as a Durkon fan and also express gratitude for the rapid updates recently.

[ThePhantasm]

Durkon's always been my favorite character

Yeah, he's quickly becoming mine. Right up there with Belkar, of all people.

[Ravens_cry]

In many ways, this is as sad as this moment. Before this, they were genuine friends. It's very sad indeed.

[Turgon9357]

As awesome as this fight is shaping up to be, I am concerned about Durkon's ability to contribute to the fight with Team Evil.

[Essex]

And since he doesn't have Knowledge (Nature) as a class skill, he also wouldn't know that Bears live in caves and fight with their claws. The D&D skill system is weird

The really weird thing is that, according to the rules, it is apparently easier to know that a Wyrmling Red Dragon breathes fire than it is to know that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon breathes fire.

[ThePhantasm]

In many ways, this is as sad as this moment. Before this, they were genuine friends. It's very sad indeed.

Or this moment.

[zimmerwald1915]

As awesome as this fight is shaping up to be, I am concerned about Durkon's ability to contribute to the fight with Team Evil.

No one in the OOTS can "contribute" in a fight against Team Evil. The best they can hope for is to delay them and survive.

[Sir_Leorik]

Remaining a vampire, I can understand as an objection. Not seeking out your immediate destruction? Um, unless there's a 13th level cleric and 5,000GP of diamonds on hand, you're probably better off not turning into a pile of ash so immediately.

Just because there's an afterlife, doesn't mean that you should be so eager to get to it if there's anything important to focus on.

A Vampire in D&D is a murder victim. They've already died, and now their murderer gets to order them around until he or she gets dusted. That sounds real great. Plus you can never see a sun rise or a sun set, never feel the warmth of a summer afternoon, never go for a dip in a river, never go to the temple of your patron deity, and never eat garlic bread ever again. Forever. Plus you now need to attack other people and feed off of them, possibly kill them and if you're not careful.

The only places in D&D canon where Vampires are allowed to walk around freely are the Principality of Glantri, from Mystara, where a Vampire who is a Wizard has full rights, as well as the slaves of a Vampire Wizard, but no other Vampires, Sigil, the City of Doors, where they are welcome provided they don't murder anyone, and Necropolis, the former city of Il Aluk in Darkon, where every living creature became Undead when Azalin's Doomsday Machine backfired. Vampires will find nothing to hunt in Il Aluk, since any living thing that enters the borders of the city immediately takes negative levels each round, no saving throw. As a result, few Vampires stay there. (Sigil technically has no sun, only a period of slightly brighter and slightly darker illumination. Its the ideal place for a Vampire to try to carve out a normal existence.)

Instead Vampires tend to hide in large cities, rule over large areas in secret or join the Dustmen Faction in Sigil.

[oppyu]

Regarding Greater Dispel Magic, why was that spell a mistake? They both reacted as though it was a terrible move on Malack's part, but from what little I know it seems like a valid plan to get rid of 'Death Ward'.

Regarding what some consider to be Malack's suboptimal tactics (don't play D&D, so I wouldn't know optimal tactics either way), it makes sense. For the last couple of decades, Malack has been the High Priest of various dictatorships. While he's still a pretty tough guy, he's spent the last twenty years in religious contemplation, having his servants bring him his meals.

[zimmerwald1915]

Regarding Greater Dispel Magic, why was that spell a mistake? They both reacted as though it was a terrible move on Malack's part, but from what little I know it seems like a valid plan to get rid of 'Death Ward'.

It's not a mistake to try and get rid of the death ward. It was a mistake to rely on a caster level check to get rid of it when Malack's actual caster level, given his Vampire Level Adjustment and his Lizardfolk [?] Racial Hit Dice might be equal to or lower than Durkon's.

[gorocz]

A Vampire in D&D is a murder victim. They've already died, and now their murderer gets to order them around until he or she gets dusted. That sounds real great. Plus you can never see a sun rise or a sun set, never feel the warmth of a summer afternoon, never go for a dip in a river, never go to the temple of your patron deity, and never eat garlic bread ever again. Forever.

Well, if you read up on vampirism, you can work towards becoming a Vampire Lord and do most of those things again. *Walks away
whistling "Always Look on the Bright Side of Unlife"*

[Trixie]

Malack's "aargh" seems to indicate that he felt pain at having heal cast upon him, though he does not seem to be sporting any new wounds. I guess the jury's still out on whether he actually took damage or not.

Hmm. Possibly?

I suspect that not only does he choose to remain a vampire... he might have very well chosen to become a vampire.

Chosen? What if it's just a requirement for high ranking cleric of that god? He is god of death, remember? It might have even been divine "gift".

[Sir_Leorik]

That's some deft goalpost moving, sirrah. You never mentioned any important things a just-sired vampire might need to get done. But really, most people, even in D&D worlds, don't have to concern themselves with saving the world. Most people give some weight to the fate of their soul, and refusing to murder people to prolong your own existence in the mortal realm strikes me as a fairly good way to not have it tortured for eternity. Conversely, accepting that you must murder people in order to [un]live strikes me as the kind of thing that gets you tortured for all eternity if someone does manage to end your existence in the mortal realm.

There is also the possibility, at least in 2E, that a Vampire that is destroyed becomes a mindless, incorporeal monster called a Crimson Mist. Jander Sunstar, the Chaotic Neutral Gold Elf Vampire protagonist of the novel "Vampire of the Mists" was concerned that if he just committed suicide he would become a Crimson Mist, regardless of his own morality. His concern was motivated by the fact that he had been enslaved for a little over a century by his Sire; after Jander's Sire was slain, Jander travelled to Waterdeep, to learn if there was a cure for Vampirism. There isn't one in 2E; in 3.X I imagine you'd need to use a True Resurrection spell of equivalent magic.

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In the end, after failing to destroy Count Strahd, Jander decided to let the sunride destroy him, and accept whatever fate awaited him. However the Dark Powers caused the Mists to rise and Jander emerged centuries later in Falkovnia. He is currently a vigilante, fighting against Kingsfuhrer Vlad Drakov's brutal regime and against the Vampyre aristocrat Vladimir Ludzig, who maintains feeding pens for the Vampyres of Lekar. (Vampyres are not Undead, they are Monstrous Humanoids that drink blood and resemble Vampires in many respects. Ludzig came from a Material World where Vampyres had enslaved Humans and bred them like cattle. He was replicating this scheme in Lekar.)

[ThePhantasm]

Chosen? What if it's just a requirement for high ranking cleric of that god? He is god of death, remember? It might have even been divine "gift".

Yeah, that too. All sorts of options.

[Snails]

Regarding Greater Dispel Magic, why was that spell a mistake? They both reacted as though it was a terrible move on Malack's part, but from what little I know it seems like a valid plan to get rid of 'Death Ward'.

Greater Dispel Magic is not a bad choice at all. The more this battle drags out, the more that attempt looks like a good choice, regardless of whether it succeeds or not.

Durkon was mocking him for failing the Opposed Spell Check test (where Malack's cleric level + d20 is matched against Durkon's cleric level + 11), thus the title, but such mocking does not demonstrate the decision to make the attempt was a poor choice.

[ThePhantasm]

Malack's "aargh" seems to indicate that he felt pain at having heal cast upon him, though he does not seem to be sporting any new wounds. I guess the jury's still out on whether he actually took damage or not.

He almost certainly did. Compare it with Malack casting Harm on Nale here.

[hamishspence]

There is also the possibility, at least in 2E, that a Vampire that is destroyed becomes a mindless, incorporeal monster called a Crimson Mist. Jander Sunstar, the Chaotic Neutral Gold Elf Vampire protagonist of the novel "Vampire of the Mists" was concerned that if he just committed suicide he would become a Crimson Mist, regardless of his own morality.

In the 2nd ed Book of Lairs (collection of Forgotten Realms mini-adventures)- one of the quests consists of-

Vampire hires you to go to a swamp, find his soul (which has taken the form of a Crimson Death) - capture it in a bottle, and bring it back to him so he can try and un-vamp himself.

In the 3rd ed MM2 Crimson Deaths are extremely intelligent- INT 17.