OOTS #874 - The Discussion Thread

[Kazyan]

We're going to have another "Spirit of St. Louis" scenario, aren't we...

[Clistenes]

So, in the Stickverse, if you destroy an undead and then cast Raise or Resurrection on its remains, he becomes the person he was before being turned into an undead...interesting. That is an issue that is always confusing and every DM tend to homebrew it the way it is most convenient for his/her own plot.

By the way, it seems that Redcloak is right: Undead aren't the same people they were, or even persons, they are kind of spell effects that imitate life using dead corpses, otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Malack would lose all his memories and experience and revert to his primitive personality.

[SoC175]

otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Malack would lose all his memories and experience and revert to his primitive personality.

I don't think that's what Malak means

[rewinn]

Most of the time when Durkon sends a request, Thor is unavailable due to goofing off.
At least this time, Thor is busy with something important. Story-wise, it is still humorous but doesn't break the mood.

I have no idea how Durkon will get out of this one, without outside help. If Malack decides to start summoning vermin, it could get quite messy ... but it would give Mr. Scruffy a chance to strut his stuff!

[Feddlefew]

By the way, it seems that Redcloak is right: Undead aren't the same people they were, or even persons, they are kind of spell effects that imitate life using dead corpses, otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Malack would lose all his memories and experience and revert to his primitive personality.

Wait wait wait- So the fact that removing a supernatural template will take away a sizable chunk of a character's mental stats means they're not a person? Does that even make sense?

Edit: Reworded a bit

[Snails]

But how would Haley do? Especially since she has (or at least used to have) silver arrows.

Having probably >13 level of Rogue, she could have some nice goodies like:

Slippery Mind (Ex)
This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

[Snails]

Thor jokes are getting old. I'm sure he must occasionally be competent. I'm pretty sure Durkon is in trouble.

Writing for gods is problematic. They have to be MORE MORE MORE than any mortal. In the OotSverse more funny is a reasonable choice.

[Oscaver]

next up: the prequel story of Malcor the Barbarian.

[Emmit Svenson]

Magic circle against evil, holy aura, or protection from evil.

Any of those will prevent ongoing control such as a vampire's domination attack.

...for about a quarter of an hour, while the control will last for nearly two weeks. Hit and run looks better and better for Malack.

[Clistenes]

I failed my Knowledge: Norse Mythology check. Could someone explain the Thor joke at the end to me?

It has nothing to do with Norse Mythology.

Durkon said that in his universe Hela gets the souls of dwarves who die of sickness or old age, while Thor gets those who die fighting.

The dwarves believe that the trees are malevolent, sentient beings who only pretend to be unable to move in order to better surprise and ambush their victims, so they regard cutting trees as a form of combat.

Wait wait wait- So the fact that removing a supernatural template will take away a sizable chunk of a character's mental stats means they're not a person? Does that even make sense?

Edit: Reworded a bit

Malack seems to believe that he won't just get dumber, he will completely become the person he was then.

[Snails]

Malack seems to believe that he won't just get dumber, he will completely become the person he was then.

A reasonable concern. He may or may not be correct.

I went to sleep one night and woke up with the clear memories of 200 years of bloodsucking evil makes for a pretty bizarre morning, too. Boy, I would definitely need a big cup of coffee for that one.

[ReaderAt2046]

It has nothing to do with Norse Mythology.

Durkon said that in his universe Hela gets the souls of dwarves who die of sickness or old age, while Thor gets those who die fighting.

The dwarves believe that the trees are malevolent, sentient beings who only pretend to be unable to move in order to better surprise and ambush their victims, so they regard cutting trees as a form of combat.



Malack seems to believe that he won't just get dumber, he will completely become the person he was then.

I think it might just be that he's been a vampire so long that if he were changed back to a... whatever he is... it would effectively make him a new person even if he retained his memories. Sort of like how becoming a vampire made him a different person in the first place.

Also, I just realized something. If Malack is 200 years old, that means that he could easily have been involved in the adventures of the Order of the Scribble, and could be an invaluable sorce of information.

[Catbeller Mouse]

I kinda laugh at Dwarf's fear of tree stereotypes in OOTS.

That's straight from The Lord of the Rings. The dwarves fear the trees because they cut down so many of them - and some of those trees punch back. Maybe not during the last few millenia, but then again dwarves have long memories, and the Shepherds of the Trees punch really, really hard.

[Envyus]

It should be noted that Durkon really does not have anyway to beat Malack alone. It's doubtful Dukon has any spells that are capable of one shotting Malack. And if he can't one shot Malack he can just turn into gas retreat for a bit, heal and attack again until Durkon has used up all of his useful spells.

[RVAmbush]

The speed at which these comics are coming out is a dream come true, but I'm hoping it isn't going to kill the hand again..

Even if V comes stumbling in at this point, I can't imagine it'd be to do something heroic/useful.

[Stormlock]

Consider this too: Malack could quite possibly have been Chaotic Evil (and a lot more evil at that) when he was alive. Sure, he's part of the evil empire now, but for all we know back then he was a slaver and sacrificed innocent children to his gods. Imagine if Durkon resurrected him only to be met with a personality somewhere between Belkar, Thog, and Xykon.

[Acanous]

A reasonable concern. He may or may not be correct.

I went to sleep one night and woke up with the clear memories of 200 years of bloodsucking evil makes for a pretty bizarre morning, too. Boy, I would definitely need a big cup of coffee for that one.

Bloodsucking *Neutral*. Malack made every attempt at not engaging Durkon, has used no "Save or die" spells, and seems set on capturing, not killing Durkon. At this point, his strategy seems to be "Remove the opponent's ability to fight" wheras his opening gambit was "Remove the opponent's willingness to fight". He's been struggling with vampirism for years, and made a sustained effort to preserve his ethics. Turning him back into a living lizardthing would invalidate all that effort.

[Snails]

It should be noted that Durkon really does not have anyway to beat Malack alone. It's doubtful Dukon has any spells that are capable of one shotting Malack. And if he can't one shot Malack he can just turn into gas retreat for a bit, heal and attack again until Durkon has used up all of his useful spells.

True.

Seasoned adventurers tend to have scrolls of Protection from Evil for these scenarios -- but to our knowledge the Order has not had the "benefit" of getting embarrassed by Dominate Person and/or Magic Jar to pound that lesson into their noggins.

If Durkon did, he could just make a fighting retreat to regroup. Malack's fast healing is not fast enough to prevent this.

The full Order could probably destroy a lone Malack in a single round -- being forced into gaseous form would be lethal with his coffin so far away.

[TheYell]

>>By the way, it seems that Redcloak is right: Undead aren't the same people they were, or even persons, they are kind of spell effects that imitate life using dead corpses, otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Malack would lose all his memories and experience and revert to his primitive personality.<<

I understood Malack to be objecting to becoming a former Vampire Lord and has-been dictator. He wouldn't even get a homecoming parade back in the village.

[Envyus]

The full Order could probably destroy a lone Malack in a single round -- being forced into gaseous form would be lethal with his coffin so far away.

If Durkon had one ally they could pretty easily beat Malack. Also Tarquin and Malack seem way to smart to not keep his coffin at close range given that if he died they would not be able to bring him back. Tarquin probably has a bag of holding with Malack coffin in it or they left in a nearby cave.

Also Durkon does not want to get his allies involved as half of them could be easily dominated and Malack is faster and stronger then him so running away would be a rather bad idea.

[Mantine]

I like how this is going, with Malack not being a cleric/vampire but an actually vampire cleric, supplementing his own experience malus and level deficit by making use of his own abilities.

[Raineh Daze]

I'm starting to wonder if Tarquin hoards all the goodies for himself.

[Enero Irontoad]

Huh, I was wondering if Durkon would want to resurrect Malack. Turning someone who had long been a vampire into a living person would be an interesting scenario. They'd get their old alignment back, but retain their memories, right? And so they might chose to try to become a vampire again.

[Math_Mage]

Bloodsucking *Neutral*. Malack made every attempt at not engaging Durkon, has used no "Save or die" spells, and seems set on capturing, not killing Durkon. At this point, his strategy seems to be "Remove the opponent's ability to fight" wheras his opening gambit was "Remove the opponent's willingness to fight". He's been struggling with vampirism for years, and made a sustained effort to preserve his ethics. Turning him back into a living lizardthing would invalidate all that effort.

I'm reasonably certain Malack's strategy was expressed in two words, involved the word 'die', and did not involve the word 'capture'. As for a sustained effort to preserve his ethics, his ethics are pretty thin if they don't twitch at feeding on people who are 'strictly speaking' guilty under the EoB's ridiculous legal regime. And when it comes to the ethics of reverting Malack, 'invalidating his effort' sounds pretty weak compared to 'no more bloodsucking'.

[The MunchKING]

I failed my Knowledge: Norse Mythology check. Could someone explain the Thor joke at the end to me?

Hel gets the souls of dishonorable dead (including those who die of disease), and noone wants to go to her realm, so when they get deathly ill they go pick with something nasty (like a tree) to die with honor.

It's become a recurring thing that Hel wants more souls, by claiming adventurer-related diseases fall into her purview. IIRC, last time it was a Paladin defending an orphanage from mummycted Mummy Rot.

Its probably nothing more than backstory: Once upon a time there was a tribe of Lizard-folk barbarians. They had a shaman whose name is lost to history. He became a Vampire. As many Vampires do, he adopted the name "Malack".

Obviously his name was Kcalam.

This has been your random Diskworld reference for the day.

Spoiler

Show

EDIT: Actually that's what they do when they try to TRICK people in the Disc. DANG IT! Foiled by my own attention to detail!

[Snails]

Bloodsucking *Neutral*. Malack made every attempt at not engaging Durkon....

Malack could simply have walked away before the fight, during the fight, or even right now, and Durkon could do squat about it. So what you are saying is provably wrong here.

I recognize that it is not a mathematically provable fact that Malack is Evil. But the vast bulk of the evidence is pointing int that direction.

If you have to make up obviously wrong facts to support your opinion that Malack is Neutral, then you should probably reconsider your perspective.

[SaintRidley]

So, in the Stickverse, if you destroy an undead and then cast Raise or Resurrection on its remains, he becomes the person he was before being turned into an undead...interesting. That is an issue that is always confusing and every DM tend to homebrew it the way it is most convenient for his/her own plot.

Only the Resurrection line. Raise Dead can't do it.

[Stormlock]

I dunno. Belkar likely can't scratch him through DR. Halley can do basic arrow damage with silver arrows, but thats what, 1d6+5? Not going to go very far without cold or sneak attack damage, both of which Malack can safely ignore. Roy's weapon may or may not bypass the DR. As a weapon, it's not sufficient- it needs to be both magical AND silver to work- but it might have a special DR ignoring property. It certainly seems to work on Xykon, who has even stronger DR that a magic greatsword wouldn't get through either. He's also the only one putting out hits strong enough to bypass the DR by sheer force. Though Malack could have very decent AC to deal with as well, given the potential quality of his equipment and various innate armor bonuses.

V is the only one that could put out credible one shotting attack power. A disintegrate in particular would be quite effective if it hit, given the null Con score making for a flimsy fort save. But in his current state he seems more likely to get dominated and point the death ray at Durkon (or dispel the death ward.)

It's also worth noting that Bat swarms are immune to weapon damage, and the Order has very little means of dealing with one, let alone the 1d4+1 Malack can have show up in 2d6 rounds. Durkon might take out one or two with another lightning bolt, possibly hold them at bay with some sort of abjuration, but nobody else except V can likely deal with them at all.

[Feddlefew]

I'm reasonably certain Malack's strategy was expressed in two words, involved the word 'die', and did not involve the word 'capture'. As for a sustained effort to preserve his ethics, his ethics are pretty thin if they don't twitch at feeding on people who are 'strictly speaking' guilty under the EoB's ridiculous legal regime. And when it comes to the ethics of reverting Malack, 'invalidating his effort' sounds pretty weak compared to 'no more bloodsucking'.

Judging by how angry Malack got when Durkon offered to res him, I think Durkon is lucky if Malack is still planing on just killing him. Instead of, you know, making a counter offer that can't be refused.

[Snails]

Durkon is going to die. Very soon. It is heavily foreshadowed.

Kudos to the Giant on keeping my head spinning. Durkon or Belkar or both or neither could easily die right here.