OOTS #876 - The Discussion Thread

[SaintRidley]

Wow, looks like Tarquin's not the only one who goes easy on the OOTS: Malack could have owned Durkon at any time by dismissing the Ward and then going for a grapple. What would be his ECL if he's a Naga instead of a Yuan-Ti, out of curiosity?

Nonapplicable, since Nagas are aberrations and can't be made into vampires. Only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and dragons (who acquire the Vampire Dragon template from the Draconomicon) can. There are vampire Mind Flayers, but they don't seem to have any relationship to actual vampires in any way and nobody knows how they came about.

[Raineh Daze]

If Thor's Might is a refluffing of this, then Durkon probably can't cast it. Doesn't he need to be able to reach his Holy Symbol to cast, anyway, or am I confusing it with Turning?

[FujinAkari]

He can cast spells while tied up, so maybe he cast spells while grappled? It's not much, but it's at least a chance.

Freedom of Movement would work very well, if he can cast...

[Grey Watcher]

Durkon's plan really was just hitting Malack with a hammer? Oh boy. I think he might actually be down for the count.

I think he was banking on Malack being non-optimized for hand-to-hand combat. I mean, aside from the spell list, you'd think he was a Wizard, the way he dresses and fights. Going melee honestly seemed like a good tactical option at the time, even to me, watching from the comfort of my living room. And then suddenly he's got a nasty trick up his sleeverobe in the form of a +Yes to Grapple checks.

[Amidus Drexel]

He's a Lawful Good cleric. I wouldn't want him played any other way. You see undead, you attack. Especially if you caught the undead chomping on a party member.

Well, I'd hope the LG character at least took a second to make sure he was doing the right thing. Not all undead are evil (even if most are). He certainly was in the right to attack Malack, though.

[Stormlock]

Well, staking a vampire in DnD doesn't dust them actually, since if you remove the stake they come back to life, and removing a stake from a pile of dust makes little sense. I think only sunlight would dustify one, maybe drowning.

[ObeyMyBrain]

So that poison that Durkon was dosed with a couple strips ago...any chance that could "spoil the meal"?

[Raineh Daze]

I think I've worked out the main objection to Yuan-ti: way too many teeth for something snake-oriented.

[Draz74]

Huh. I kind of hope Durkon will be saved by the arrival of Team Evil. It would be cool, after this fight, if the Cleric Friends had to go back to working together in order to survive against a superior foe.

If not ... then it would also be kinda epic if Durkon gets vamped, then casts Resurrection on himself.

[Amidus Drexel]

I think he was banking on Malack being non-optimized for hand-to-hand combat. I mean, aside from the spell list, you'd think he was a Wizard, the way he dresses and fights. Going melee honestly seemed like a good tactical option at the time, even to me, watching from the comfort of my living room. And then suddenly he's got a nasty trick up his sleeverobe in the form of a +Yes to Grapple checks.

Well, vampires have a huge bonus to str, along with a bunch of abilities that are perfect for close combat (notably energy drain and con drain). I wouldn't have attacked him in melee if I could have avoided it, although I do see where you (and probably Durkon) are coming from.

[Peelee]

As soon as Malack's vampirism was revealed, the scene became much scarier and creepier. Now that his snake-ness is confirmed, it's even more so. Great way to hold off confirmation of his race; I don't think it would have worked nearly as well as if we'd known all along.

[E^G]

Well the Giant did possibly foreshadow something when he mentioned that the cat was also protected... and dismissal is probably a standard (verbal) action. (Or M would have used it before.)

Um... maybe the kitty will save the day?

???
(anything else seems a bit ... camp, but not unreasonable given their proximity to allies...)



Curious though: What happens to a priest who's dominated by a force opposed to his deity. Does he just lose domain specific spells until he finds a new deity or does he lose all spells?

[Raineh Daze]

Hmm... would Large size actually be enough to let Durkon break free? Large size is a +4, and +4 to strength (based off Righteous Might) is a +2... but I think a snake tail is a +4 to grappling, too, and as a vampire, Malack has high strength.

[JackRackham]

SO....Yuan-ti Halfblood? Abomination? Some sort of Naga? What are we looking at here? On a related note, I'm having trouble finding the template for a halfblood, as only the pureblood is given in the Monster Manual (Serpent Kingdoms was no help, either). Any ideas how this changes the game?

[jere7my]

I went back to look at a thread from five months ago in which we were discussing Malack's species, and was amused to find this reply to one of my posts:

Have fun holding onto the hope that Malack turns out to be a fiendish half-vampire yuan-ti or whatever weird theory you have. I'm bored now.

(Though, technically, I was only saying it was possible he was a yuan-ti; the fiendish half-vampire part was Killian's elaboration.)

[Raineh Daze]

SO....Yuan-ti Halfblood? Abomination? Some sort of Naga? What are we looking at here? On a related note, I'm having trouble finding the template for a halfblood, as only the pureblood is given in the Monster Manual (Serpent Kingdoms was no help, either). Any ideas how this changes the game?

If he's a Yuan-ti Abomination, his ECL is 35, and he has 20HD. Beyond that? No clue.

[Esclados]

Oh, Malack. <3

[E^G]

Well, vampires have a huge bonus to str, along with a bunch of abilities that are perfect for close combat (notably energy drain and con drain). I wouldn't have attacked him in melee if I could have avoided it, although I do see where you (and probably Durkon) are coming from.

Aye.
Vampires have +6 to strength.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
Divine power gives another +6 to strength.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm

So that's still a statistical +3 bonus difference.
Of course with Improved Grappling M has a statistical +7 bonus. Modulo race specific bonuses, which may favor him.

I don't know my spell compendium super well, but I have no idea what Durkon was hoping to accomplish meleeing a vampire that can assume gaseous form and heals 5/hp per round.

His own fault for dissing his comrads. (Seriously, only Belkar and Elan are Will liabilities. Haley is a thief she has anti-charm specific class powers.) :/

[Grey Watcher]

Well, vampires have a huge bonus to str, along with a bunch of abilities that are perfect for close combat (notably energy drain and con drain). I wouldn't have attacked him in melee if I could have avoided it, although I do see where you (and probably Durkon) are coming from.

That place we're coming from being the Land of I Haven't Checked to Rules on Vampires in Quite Some Time.

[Shale]

I think he was banking on Malack being non-optimized for hand-to-hand combat. I mean, aside from the spell list, you'd think he was a Wizard, the way he dresses and fights. Going melee honestly seemed like a good tactical option at the time, even to me, watching from the comfort of my living room. And then suddenly he's got a nasty trick up his sleeverobe in the form of a +Yes to Grapple checks.

Even without the prehensile everything and magical cheat code, he's got Fast Healing and magic/silver DR, combining to negate 15 damage per turn. Durkon might have outpaced that, but it'd take a long time that he didn't have.

(Of course, knowing about the DR would require a knowledge: religion check, and we know how good Durkon is at those.)

[St Fan]

There are vampire Mind Flayers, but they don't seem to have any relationship to actual vampires in any way and nobody knows how they came about.

Unless you've read the Ravenloft adventure Thoughts of Darkness, which introduced Illithid vampires to the 2nd edition, and includes their origin.

[natrl20]

Woah woah woah, so if Durkon is vamped, he automatically becomes Evil, even if he is not really evil (like, still trying to help the Order). So as a cleric that change in capitalized alignment means he loses his casting abilities right? Would Thor really turn his back because of something that happened to Durkon against his will?

[Mantine]

I don't see how he could free himself alone.
Can't cast, can't move, Malack must have some ungodly grapple check now (vampire template + divine power + obscure holding technique) and can't even stall for time losing 2-4 CON each round.

[Porthos]

Would Thor really turn his back because of something that happened to Durkon against his will?

I'm sure Nergal will be happy to have a new follower.

[Golden-Esque]

I think a sudden appearance by V is Durkon's only shot at getting out of this.

I concur. V is Durkon's only real chance at this point; considering Durkon's comment about "weak-willed" describing half of his party, it would have turned out to be a very nice piece of foreshadowing.

An equally poised question, however, is "Can V actually stop Malak?"

My prediction is that V will show up. Considering that Durkon is currently in a grapple with Malak, V's only real choice is to blast them both with some sort of AoE spell. I could see Durkon telling V to do it, honestly. Then the part of the prophecy of Durkon returning home posthumously could become true. Plus I don't think his prophecy ever said he would rest eternal after returning home.

[Raineh Daze]

An equally poised question, however, is "Can V actually stop Malak?"

My prediction is that V will show up. Considering that Durkon is currently in a grapple with Malak, V's only real choice is to blast them both with some sort of AoE spell. I could see Durkon telling V to do it, honestly. Then the part of the prophecy of Durkon returning home posthumously could become true. Plus I don't think his prophecy ever said he would rest eternal after returning home.

The problem being that if Durkon dies, V is then left entirely alone, and in a position where there's an angry vampire that probably wants to kill her in the same room.

[Themrys]

Woah woah woah, so if Durkon is vamped, he automatically becomes Evil, even if he is not really evil (like, still trying to help the Order). So as a cleric that change in capitalized alignment means he loses his casting abilities right? Would Thor really turn his back because of something that happened to Durkon against his will?

Technically, he did die in battle. Thor should like that.

[Canisius]

I
Durkon has his prophecy, so we know he won't live when he returns (alright, the prophecy thing was true for belkar, too), and becoming a vampire fits very well. Not to Durkons personality of course, but Durkon is still the same boring dwarf he was when he started. He had his big shiny moment here in the fight, proving his stubborn good alignment and his personality - now it's time for a change.
Durkon - no longer bland but filling!

I dunno - I've always thought Rich has written Durkon as an indispensable straight-man. And he's always the most reliable in a fight, iirc. Also, there are a lot fewer times that Durkon's broken the 4th wall than any other of the NPCs, so he seems far more rooted in the "game" than the other protagonists.

Very exciting story, though. I never thought Durkon had a chance in a straight up fight with Malack.

As far as future developments:

Spoiler

Show

There are several characters that could show up suddenly to change the balance of power again.
1. V, obviously, but
2. Belkar may come to before Durkon's vamping is complete. My guess (with little D&D moxie but having played other RPGs) is that Malack can't use his Dominating Gaze while grappling or vamping. Any D&D players know how that works?
3. The lich may choose this time to appear.
4. Roy & party may have heard the commotion.
5. Mr. Scruffy completely disemboweled a low-level NPC. He might be able to come up with at least a distraction
6. This would be a good time for Thog to reappear.
7. It could actually be that Durkon gets vamped, which would suck, so to speak. Though..
8. Even if he is vamped, we saw many strips where Roy was D.E.A.D., and in the end managed to get a rez. There's a lot of stuff Count Durkon could do over the course of many strips.
9. Finally, I think an undead member of OOTS could be pivotal in the eventual Xykon confrontation.

Again, Rich hasn't let us down yet. There have been shocking comics in the past that resolved themselves. Like a good novel or movie though, things are getting a lot darker with the possibility of breaking up the group. Pins & needles!

Great job, Rich!

[Smolder]

I see two ways out... break the hold by growing to giant size, or get vamped but then cast resurrection on himself.

[Whelk]

Here's hoping Durkon can use Thor's Might and break free. He might not be able to stand up straight but does that matter at this point?

If he gets vampirified, I'm going to be really bummed (from a personal liking Durkon standpoint, not a storytelling standpoint). Durkon has always been so solid in his ways and beliefs. That does make it more interesting for him to be forced into something he abhors, though. Still, it'd make me really sad.

Even if this turns out fulfilling his prophecies, hopefully he'll end up being saved somehow eventually. Hypothetically, if Durkon is destroyed as a vampire, does his soul get screwed and sent to the afterlife reserved for evil people because his body was forced into an Always Evil creature?