One reason Miko snapped

[sims796]

Strip #200.

The fanbase's division over whether she was the best or the worst thing that ever happened to the comic remains the deepest I've seen here.

I might as well start up discussion on Celia at this point. Seems like an instant 300+ thread.

[Kish]

In retrospect*, the division caused by Celia was never anywhere near as deep as that caused by Miko.

*Insofar as it is "in retrospect"; Celia is likely done with her stint as a semi-major character but is far from gone.

[Copperdragon]

When did Miko become so popular all of a sudden, anyway?

When she died.

[Chad30]

Miko is a complex character, and I think worth discussing. She's not my favorite character, but I didn't think she had no redeemable qualities, and I didn't cheer when she died. She's kind of a tragic antagonist, in my opinion. A good example of what happens when you take lawful too far.

I would have put her in the lawful neutral category, but after vergil's post that may not be accurate for her.

She probably would have been more easily forgotten if she didn't listen to soon, and shouted at him that she was still right.

[sims796]

In retrospect*, the division caused by Celia was never anywhere near as deep as that caused by Miko.

*Insofar as it is "in retrospect"; Celia is likely done with her stint as a semi-major character but is far from gone.

This must be one hell of a wound - you'd think these discussions would have been settled some odd 3 or 400 strips ago. Just curious as to what bought up these discussions now, of all times. Ain't like she's popping up to give us more to work with. Well, she might, I suppose, I don't write this stuff.

[lio45]

This must be one hell of a wound - you'd think these discussions would have been settled some odd 3 or 400 strips ago. Just curious as to what bought up these discussions now, of all times. Ain't like she's popping up to give us more to work with. Well, she might, I suppose, I don't write this stuff.

You'll notice that every single time you see one of "these discussions", the thread starter's join date indicates that person wasn't a forum member 400 strips ago -- nor even a mere 300 strips ago.

So yes, these discussions would definitely have been settled long ago if this community was a closed group that didn't have the steady stream of new member additions over time that it actually has.

[sims796]

You'll notice that every single time you see one of "these discussions", the thread starter's join date indicates that person wasn't a forum member 400 strips ago -- nor even a mere 300 strips ago.

So yes, these discussions would definitely have been settled long ago if this community was a closed group that didn't have the steady stream of new member additions over time that it actually has.

Alright, no need to get snippy here, it isn't that serious at all. I'm not insulting anybody here over the seemingly recent Miko fixation, just wondering why it's now of all times.

It's just a curiosity that's been rattling in my head. New members or no, this is a rather old character whose story was resolved long ago. I find it noteworthy that she is still a topic of discussion, even to the old members still on this board; after all, this thread isn't filled with new members only, this must still be a topic of interest to older members as well. Especially in light of what's been going down in the comics now. I expected a few more Durkula or Marack threads before this.

Heck, thinking back, there's been a "dry spell" of all things Miko for a while. I'd have thought Celia to be a more discussion-worthy character. Or at least, I'd thought I'd see more of that popping up.

[Kish]

I expected a few more Durkula or Marack threads before this.

I know what "Durkula" refers to, but what's Marack?

[Tvtyrant]

I know what "Durkula" refers to, but what's Marack?

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I feel bad about myself now..

[sims796]

I know what "Durkula" refers to, but what's Marack?

That was cold. Malack. Sorry for the typo, I suppose

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I feel bad about myself now..

Shame there isn't a like button on this site.

[lio45]

Alright, no need to get snippy here, it isn't that serious at all. I'm not insulting anybody here over the seemingly recent Miko fixation, just wondering why it's now of all times.

Your observations don't mirror mine on that point... that Miko fixation has been a present and visible phenomenon on the forum since the days when Miko was still in the current strips. (Of course the exact level of Miko-themed forum activity will show random variations over the course of each year... but when you observe one of these chance increases, no need to "wonder why it's now of all times.")

It's just a curiosity that's been rattling in my head. New members or no, this is a rather old character whose story was resolved long ago.

No, it most definitely wasn't resolved "long ago" to someone who's just discovered/read the whole comic then joined the forum.

I find it noteworthy that she is still a topic of discussion, even to the old members still on this board; after all, this thread isn't filled with new members only, this must still be a topic of interest to older members as well.

Old members obviously like to look around various threads, otherwise they wouldn't have remained active members...

Especially in light of what's been going down in the comics now. I expected a few more Durkula or Marack threads before this.

Seriously? There has been a gazillion of those recently. I expected the opposite...

Heck, thinking back, there's been a "dry spell" of all things Miko for a while. I'd have thought Celia to be a more discussion-worthy character. Or at least, I'd thought I'd see more of that popping up.

I'm pretty sure most of us would disagree with your opinion that Celia is a more discussion/argument-worthy character than Miko. Miko's in the major league...

[sims796]

Your observations don't mirror mine on that point... that Miko fixation has been a present and visible phenomenon on the forum since the days when Miko was still in the current strips. (Of course the exact level of Miko-themed forum activity will show random variations over the course of each year... but when you observe one of these chance increases, no need to "wonder why it's now of all times.")




No, it most definitely wasn't resolved "long ago" to someone who's just discovered/read the whole comic then joined the forum.




Old members obviously like to look around various threads, otherwise they wouldn't have remained active members...




Seriously? There has been a gazillion of those recently. I expected the opposite...




I'm pretty sure most of us would disagree with your opinion that Celia is a more discussion/argument-worthy character than Miko. Miko's in the major league...

Ok, dude. It really, really isn't that serious at all. Sorry for bringing up a simple observation of mine, I didn't think it'll turn into a huge "thing", and I certainly am not looking for a long, drawn out, quotation dissecting "debate". Though I should have, to be fair.

[Kish]

That was cold.

It may be, but it was also uncomprehending. If you want me to think "typo," y'might want to not deliberately misspell another character's name in the same sentence.

[sims796]

It may be, but it was also uncomprehending. If you want me to think "typo," y'might want to not deliberately misspell another character's name in the same sentence.

Hah, that is true, easy to think I was mixing up two names together

[lio45]

Ok, dude. It really, really isn't that serious at all. Sorry for bringing up a simple observation of mine, I didn't think it'll turn into a huge "thing", and I certainly am not looking for a long, drawn out, quotation dissecting "debate". Though I should have, to be fair.

Don't worry... basically, all you did was ask a not-so-unreasonable question, and I happened to have the answer to it.

(And even that long, drawn out, quotation-dissecting post of mine didn't really take me more than a minute to write.)

[The_Jackal]

Miko is a complex character, and I think worth discussing. She's not my favorite character, but I didn't think she had no redeemable qualities, and I didn't cheer when she died. She's kind of a tragic antagonist, in my opinion. A good example of what happens when you take lawful too far.

I would have put her in the lawful neutral category, but after vergil's post that may not be accurate for her.

She probably would have been more easily forgotten if she didn't listen to soon, and shouted at him that she was still right.

I don't think Miko's a very complex character, but she's put in a complex situation of serving her own egomania and being bound by oaths as to her obedience and behaviour. Whatever you may think of Miko's goodness or evilness, you at least have to concede that she's IMMENSELY self-centered, driven by a level of confirmation bias that would make Fox News envious. This quote pretty much confirms that:

Everyone in this room but you and I are agents of Evil, whether or not their alignment registers as such.

And that's what really drives her character: Not good or evil, but unswerving belief in the face of contrary evidence. What her intentions were are really irrelevant, the results of her actions, based on that fallacious reasoning, were undeniably unlawful, and arguably evil.

[sims796]

Don't worry... basically, all you did was ask a not-so-unreasonable question, and I happened to have the answer to it.

(And even that long, drawn out, quotation-dissecting post of mine didn't really take me more than a minute to write.)

Ok, cool. I didn't want a huge argument off of this thing, I've seen it happen far too often on this site, and I didn't want to derail this thread simply for that.

[ti'esar]

Strip #200.

The fanbase's division over whether she was the best or the worst thing that ever happened to the comic remains the deepest I've seen here.

Is that actually what the division is over? Almost all modern discussion I've seen is about whether Miko was a bad person, not a bad character.

[Kish]

The ones who really hated her existence seem to have left the site.

...I remember one who insisted she was the DM's girlfriend, a Blackguard, and She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, and "corrected" anyone who called her Miko instead of one of those things.

[Shadowknight12]

...I remember one who insisted she was the DM's girlfriend

So a competent female antagonist who is not overtly sexualised is the DM's girlfriend now? I'm glad whoever thought that way is gone.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Miko was a lot more than competent, she took out the whole Order single-handed. I disagree with "teacher's pet" type accusations but that is understandable.

Also, it doesn't seem relevant to me, but she was sexualized more than most female characters in the strip (though not as much as some): repeatedly referred to as "hot", and Roy drooled over her for a bit. She was just not at all responsive.

[Olinser]

Miko was a lot more than competent, she took out the whole Order single-handed. I disagree with "teacher's pet" type accusations but that is understandable.

Also, it doesn't seem relevant to me, but she was sexualized more than most female characters in the strip (though not as much as some): repeatedly referred to as "hot", and Roy drooled over her for a bit. She was just not at all responsive.

If by 'took out the whole order single-handed' you mean 'beat the order with the aid of her horse (which doesn't make it single-handed), when Durkon was sitting in the background, while Roy had the absolute worst (and non-magical) weapon possible, and when the DM (Rich) had already decided she had to win the fight', then yes, you are correct. Seriously, when he got his sword back Roy took her out single-handedly.

[Shadowknight12]

Miko was a lot more than competent, she took out the whole Order single-handed. I disagree with "teacher's pet" type accusations but that is understandable.

Because Durkon refused to fight her, Elan did nothing and Roy had a non-magical greatclub as a weapon. She was fighting a rogue, a ranger, a crippled fighter and a blasting wizard. The first time she fought them, the rain nullified Haley and V's attacks. And since she was the highest-level paladin in the Sapphire Guard, it's possible she was considerably higher level than the Order at that time.

Now I don't like Miko one bit, but she was a great example of a competent female warrior, and I hate the idea that her agency and power are denied and granted instead to the presumably male DM who made it happen (as per the "DM's girlfriend" comment).

[rodneyAnonymous]

They were at a few disadvantages but still, one versus five :) The battle did go "luckily" (though plausibly) in her favor. She exhibited battle prowess several other times. "Competent" seems like an extreme understatement.

I know what you mean but that is kind of exaggerating for the sake of a point, she did in fact have some potentially "Mary Sue" qualities and being a combat badass was one of them.

[Rakoa]

If by 'took out the whole order single-handed' you mean 'beat the order when Durkon was sitting in the background, while Roy had the absolute worst (and non-magical) weapon possible, and when the DM (Rich) had already decided she had to win the fight', then yes, you are correct.

Durkon, perhaps, did not contribute much. Roy was far from useless, and his weapon was not "the absolute worst", but certainly was nonmagical. Which is largely irrelevant. It isn't as if his entire build is based of wielding a +1 Longsword or something.

And to say that the DM had decided she needed to win is a weak argument at best. Rich's will determines every single battle in this comic. By this logic, no character is competent, they just dance on their puppet strings to his tune.

[Tragak]

Didn't Durkon specifically show that the storm was the only reason Miko lasted more than one round?

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Oh, right, Durkon

[rodneyAnonymous]

He speculated. It is possible. Not "show"ed as in "proved", or anything. Like I said, disadvantages. Still :) That is pretty impressive.

[Shadowknight12]

They were at a few disadvantages but still, one versus five :) The battle did go "luckily" (though plausibly) in her favor. She exhibited battle prowess several other times. "Competent" seems like an extreme understatement.

I know what you mean but that is kind of exaggerating for the sake of a point, she did in fact have some potentially "Mary Sue" qualities and being a combat badass was one of them.

One versus four. Elan did nothing in both fights. In the first fight, her tanglefoot bag and the storm neutralised V right off the bat, who also did nothing. The storm also neutralised Haley until she took Elan's rapier.

She wasn't some combat master who took out five people at once. She was a moderately competent warrior who fought four people with the aid of her intelligent mount and heavily relied on strategies that shut down one or more members while she took care of the Order one by one.

Not to mention that the Order fought her directly and without any sort of cunning whatsoever. When Belkar faced off against her on his own, he relied on trickery, the environment, traps and guerilla warfare to whittle her down (and it worked. He could have killed her all on his own at one point).

While she was a horrible person who I do not miss in the comic at all, it is also pretty crappy to see that she gets a "Mary Sue!" or "DM's girlfriend!" treatment when the other villains get treated as proper antagonists regardless of how many times they beat the protagonists to a pulp.

[sims796]

He speculated. It is possible. Not "show"ed as in "proved", or anything. Like I said, disadvantages. Still :) That is pretty impressive.

Agreed. I can't stand Miko, glad she's dead, but I wouldn't dare call her anything other than powerful. She beat the order twice - the second time in an even playing field (fine, 2 vs 5). She's good.

[vergil]

Oh, Miko's good, but she ain't good enough to drop the entire Order without surprise, luck, good tactics by her (combined with poor tactics by them), at least one of their members doing nothing and at least another one of them lacking their specialized weapon. Look at the way Belkar KO'ed her, or the way Roy beat her like a red-headed stepchild in the throne room.

She is skilled and powerful, but saying that she's powerful enough to drop the entire Order without a laundry list of things being stacked in her favor is way overrating her.