Ménage à 3 IV: It's All Coming to a Head

[Traab]

Consent is a dodgy thing, but generally speaking, people who are under the influence of a mind-altering substance are not considered able to give consent.

And sex without consent is the very definition of rape.

Soooo, you DO think two drunk people should go to jail for rape if they have sex with each other?

[John Cribati]

Soooo, you DO think two drunk people should go to jail for rape if they have sex with each other?

I never said that; I just said that both of them being drunk doesn't make it not rape.

[Kato]

Could we not have this discussion? I feel like the mods would not like this happen either...


Let's instead talk about how people get smothered with their own breasts (well kind of) in EC. Or how w website counter goes up to 1.5 million over night. Or probably faster. Well, since this seems to be kind of like E3 I guess it makes sense.

[Goosefeather]

I never said that; I just said that both of them being drunk doesn't make it not rape.

And nor does it automatically make it rape either - there are a whole bunch of other factors to take into account. Grouping every act of drunken fornication under the umbrella of being de facto rape is, well, silly.

I mean, take the example of a husband and wife getting drunk together and then heading off to bed, neither coercing the other, both mutually enjoying themselves and neither regretting it afterwards (except possibly the hangover). To label that as mutual 'rape' (both were under the influence of a mind-affecting drug, and therefore presumably unable to give consent) is to dilute the word to an irresponsible extent. It's not black-and-white "alcohol + sex = rape"; it's sometimes black, sometimes white, and sometimes grey.

[Traab]

Could we not have this discussion? I feel like the mods would not like this happen either...


Let's instead talk about how people get smothered with their own breasts (well kind of) in EC. Or how w website counter goes up to 1.5 million over night. Or probably faster. Well, since this seems to be kind of like E3 I guess it makes sense.

Oh thats easy. You inhale too deeply while motor boating yourself and you might accidentally create enough suction to lodge a bit in your mouth, hence suffocation.

[Goosefeather]

Oh thats easy. You inhale too deeply while motor boating yourself and you might accidentally create enough suction to lodge a bit in your mouth, hence suffocation.

But... but it'd have to be so far in as to cut off the windpipe altogether...

[Werewindlefr]

Soooo, you DO think two drunk people should go to jail for rape if they have sex with each other?

Drunk isn't a binary thing, there isn't a green LED that turns off when you're drinking the drop that removes your ability to consent. However, the implication of the previous strip and this one is that Sienna has a much higher tolerance to alcohol and still has some control over what she is doing. It's very unclear that Gary does (and signs points to him being somewhat out of control), and it's thus not clear that he's able to consent.

Authorial intent might have been to make a light-hearted joke, except authorial intent matters little: it's what the strip shows that does, and it's far from the first time Gisele produces a strip with implications that are really unfortunate at best.

[Morph Bark]

Let's instead talk about how people get smothered with their own breasts (well kind of) in EC. Or how w website counter goes up to 1.5 million over night. Or probably faster. Well, since this seems to be kind of like E3 I guess it makes sense.

If they had been in Germany instead of France, I would've assumed they were at Gamescom.

[Kato]

If they had been in Germany instead of France, I would've assumed they were at Gamescom.

Ah, I didn't think of that. (And again I'm disappointed I didn't have time to visit) They might as well have gone to Germany, it's not that far after all and I'd assume outside passports for France cover the whole EU (except those few separatist countries who still demand an extra passport )
Or it's just some generic convention... they did start a few weeks ago, after all. Have we seen anyone speak something else than English there?

[snoopy13a]

Ah, I didn't think of that. (And again I'm disappointed I didn't have time to visit) They might as well have gone to Germany, it's not that far after all and I'd assume outside passports for France cover the whole EU (except those few separatist countries who still demand an extra passport )
Or it's just some generic convention... they did start a few weeks ago, after all. Have we seen anyone speak something else than English there?

I believe they are in France (see comic # 42). It also seems that the authors dropped using brackets ( "< >") to denote French around comic # 45. After that, I'm unsure if the characters are speaking French or English.

[Goosefeather]

I believe they are in France (see comic # 42). It also seems that the authors dropped using brackets ( "< >") to denote French around comic # 45. After that, I'm unsure if the characters are speaking French or English.

Clearly the characters are at a translation convention

(my apologies, that was dire!)

[Traab]

But... but it'd have to be so far in as to cut off the windpipe altogether...

Hey, you get a massive mouthful of boob that is held on by suction and see how well YOU can breathe! See, when you inhale the boob, all you get is flesh, not air, so you cant even exhale enough to break the suction that way. Its the same way you choke on just about anything really, except this time it doesnt have to go down the throat to seal off your airway.

[Goosefeather]

Hey, you get a massive mouthful of boob that is held on by suction and see how well YOU can breathe! See, when you inhale the boob, all you get is flesh, not air, so you cant even exhale enough to break the suction that way. Its the same way you choke on just about anything really, except this time it doesnt have to go down the throat to seal off your airway.

But noses...

[Eldan]

Well, you can suffocate someone with a pillow, so I assume it can work.

[Dragonus45]

While in this example I would agree, I think the current application to Gary and Senna depends on how you read the previous strip.

To me, it didn't read like Gary was getting more and more confused and disorientated, but instead as he drank more his confidence was increasing. At the very beginning he was too terrified to even move and hold a conversation with Senna.
After a couple of drinks, he relaxes enough to start sharing his pass times and hobbies with her. After a couple more, he opens up personal details about his failed relationships to date. After seven, it genuinely looks to be like he has pulled her into his lap - Senna's speech seems to be as much surprise as anything, and he gave her 'such pleasure', again which I read in a domineering sense.

He's even lucid enough to recognise what he's doing, because he knows that it's a new experience ("Didn't do this with Sonya") so his perception and memory seem to be unimpeded.

Okay, admittedly "get drunk and your sex life will improve" is not a particularly good moral for any story, but my interpretation is a long way away from "Gary is too drunk to consent and Senna is taking advantage of him".

Well im not saying it was out and out date rape, it is nearing a line and if the situation were even a little bit different then it wouldbe rape. Also this isn't the first time that something has happened to gary that neared the line and im starting to wonder if the authors have put any thought into the implications of a few of the strips they have done.

[John Cribati]

Well im not saying it was out and out date rape, it is nearing a line and if the situation were even a little bit different then it wouldbe rape. Also this isn't the first time that something has happened to gary that neared the line and im starting to wonder if the authors have put any thought into the implications of a few of the strips they have done.

“I was drunk” isn't going to work to absolve you of any other crime. At the very least, this is a sexual assault of some kind.

[Kato]

Okay... Gary still hasn't realized what Senna is planning... And Senna hasn't realized Gary doesn't know what she is planning. And... again, we encounter the first(?) rule of Ma3: Gary must sufferrrrrrrrrrrr. Or maybe h will enjoy it? Who knows.

[The Succubus]

Or, more probably, Gary will pass out unconscious on the bed. Also the above discussion? Really uncomfortable. =|

[Domochevsky]

Wait... there's a guy sitting in front of them. Was this a regular public flight?

(Also, what the Succubus said. Both things.)

[Eldan]

Wait... there's a guy sitting in front of them. Was this a regular public flight?

(Also, what the Succubus said. Both things.)

"We're at the hotel" makes me think they are in a car and that's the driver.

[Domochevsky]

Hm... good call, actually. That does make more sense.

[Cikomyr]

“I was drunk” isn't going to work to absolve you of any other crime. At the very least, this is a sexual assault of some kind.

Except how do we make the difference between mere lack of judgment due to alcohol on both part and actual sexual assault?

[John Cribati]

Except how do we make the difference between mere lack of judgment due to alcohol on both part and actual sexual assault?

First of all, the way that's worded implies that a person cannot be sexually assaulted, at all, if both parties are drunk.

But I digress. My question is this:

What exactly changes when both of parties are drunk? The fact that they're both suffering from lowered inhibitions?

I mean, lowered inhibitions from being drunk is never treated as an excuse. Not if you hit somebody with a car. Not if you get in a fight. Not if you kill someone. Hell, if a man gets drunk and forces himself on a sober person, we'd still call that rape, wouldn't we?

[Domochevsky]

Say... isn't there this (internet)old saying? "You can't rape the willing". Why is this a topic all of a sudden? Both are willing; no one is forcing anything on the other person. Them being drunk is more a sidefactor than anything else here (and something they'll have to sort out in the morning).

[John Cribati]

Say... isn't there this (internet)old saying? "You can't rape the willing". Why is this a topic all of a sudden? Both are willing; no one is forcing anything on the other person. Them being drunk is more a sidefactor than anything else here (and something they'll have to sort out in the morning).

If a twelve-year-old girl willingly has sex with a twenty-year-old man, that man is still being charged with rape, because children under the age of 18 aren't considered able to consent to sex with an adult. Being drunk is treated in much the same way, because your state of mind is altered.

[Avilan the Grey]

If a twelve-year-old girl willingly has sex with a twenty-year-old man, that man is still being charged with rape, because children under the age of 18 aren't considered able to consent to sex with an adult. Being drunk is treated in much the same way, because your state of mind is altered.

Not sure how we even got into this discussion, but I am from a society with heavy drinking as a norm, and I definitely don't see a problem with anything that is happening so far.

Your example simply does not apply, unless one of the participants is too drunk to be able to object.

[Olinser]

Not sure how we even got into this discussion, but I am from a society with heavy drinking as a norm, and I definitely don't see a problem with anything that is happening so far.

Your example simply does not apply, unless one of the participants is too drunk to be able to object.

Gary is pretty clearly so drunk he has no idea what is going on, much less able to actually object to it.

[Cikomyr]

Gary is pretty clearly so drunk he has no idea what is going on, much less able to actually object to it.

The same can almost be said about her

[Dragonus45]

Except how do we make the difference between mere lack of judgment due to alcohol on both part and actual sexual assault?

Ehh, i kind of view this like i would view a person who is already a little drunk getting hit on then by someone who is nearing that too drunk to give informed consent line and then deciding to chug a half a bottle of vodka so the can say they are just as drunk. It feels like its nearing a line, not crossing it yet just kinda getting close. I would say a more straightforward example of what bothers me so far is the jokes about taking pictures of gary while he slept or the time he was tricked into giving a girl oral sex without knowing what he was doing. Would he have said yes if asked, probably yea. Did anyone ever really bother to ask, not in the slightest.

[Traab]

That last panel, they both look so wasted I expect gary to wake up face down in the bed, while senna is passed out in the bathroom. Or they wake up together, remember the setup, but both blacked out so neither is sure if senna plowed the virgin fields as it were.