Sid Meyer's Civilization

[satorian]

This always confused me as well, and the fact that in Civ2 Writing was a prerequisite for a tech that was literally called "Literacy" didn't help. (Especially with Civilization turn system which seems to imply my people know how to write but didn't figure out how to read centuries later, particularly since I don't usually go for Literacy right after Writing). Then again, Alphabet comes before Writing in every Civ game other than 4.

I guess the mindset is something like "Alphabet is just figuring out different signs for stuff written on a piece of clay" while Writing is like "properly using Alphabet to its maximum use". Change Literacy to Literature like in Civ4 and we are okay.

I never had a problem with that. Historically in many cultures, writing was used for centuries only by an elite priestly class, or by traders. This was true of Sumer and Egypt, as examples. I always assumed Literacy meant a more widespread ability to use writing, like say at the level of Rome. Still, Literature is the better choice (and it was used in Civ 3, too), since any real civ I can think of had widespread literature as coeval with widespread literacy. As to time, though, while the turn-based research can be wonky, the timeframes do work pretty well in the ancient world to map to real historical progression.

[Mx.Silver]

Anyone else really looking forward to Brave New World?

I'm fairly optimistic, as anything that looks to make culture victory something more than just 'sit around clicking End Turn' is good. Also, The Zulu are coming back, and it's not really Civ without them.

[Chromascope3D]

Arabia is definitely my favorite civ in V, although that's because I play Civ like Scrooge McDuck. Why train units when you can simply buy them...

...From your fabulous desert yacht?

[Razanir]

I never had a problem with that. Historically in many cultures, writing was used for centuries only by an elite priestly class, or by traders. This was true of Sumer and Egypt, as examples. I always assumed Literacy meant a more widespread ability to use writing, like say at the level of Rome. Still, Literature is the better choice (and it was used in Civ 3, too), since any real civ I can think of had widespread literature as coeval with widespread literacy. As to time, though, while the turn-based research can be wonky, the timeframes do work pretty well in the ancient world to map to real historical progression.

Development of writing systems for anyone who's interested:
Pictographs and ideographs– Chinese. One character to one concept.
Syllabaries– Japanese and Korean. One character to one syllable
Abjads– Arabic and Tengwar. One character to one consonant; vowels are optional diacritics
Abugidas– No good examples. One character to one consonant; modify characters for vowels. Like if V is "va" but Λ is "ve"
Alphabet– Latin and derivatives. Each consonant and vowel gets a character

Arabia is definitely my favorite civ in V, although that's because I play Civ like Scrooge McDuck. Why train units when you can simply buy them...

...From your fabulous desert yacht?

I play a 4-city game with Ethiopia. I only actually build one settler. The other two are funded by selling luxury resources. Example from me meeting Gandhi. "Hi, here's some salt! How much money will you give me?" I got 200+ gold. I also have a habit of destroying nations' economies by selling luxuries for all their gold and all their GPT

[Closet_Skeleton]

Morocco and Indonesia were announced for Brave New World today.

Morocco has international trade route bonuses, Kasbah unique improvement (build only in desert, provides extra defence and food) and Bedouin cavalry (armed with guns and replaces regular Cavalry). The trade route bonus sounds too similar to Arabia to me, but Arabia is probably going to change.

[Mx.Silver]

Morocco and Indonesia were announced for Brave New World today.

Morocco has international trade route bonuses, Kasbah unique improvement (build only in desert, provides extra defence and food) and Bedouin cavalry (armed with guns and replaces regular Cavalry). The trade route bonus sounds too similar to Arabia to me, but Arabia is probably going to change.

Possibly, from what I hear France is getting reworked a fair amount, for there's precedent. Either that or Arabia's bonuses may only apply to internal trade routes.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Definitely looking forward to the new expansion.


"It belongs in a museum!"

Also, XCOM soldiers as a crazy future crossover unit.

I've played Civ4 and 5. Both are good in their own ways, but I think I prefer 5 just a little more, despite the flaws. I think my fav civ is Persia with their crazy good Golden Ages, but I haven't tried all of them yet. I tend to play 2-3 games in a row and then stop for a while before playing again.

[satorian]

Development of writing systems for anyone who's interested:
Pictographs and ideographs– Chinese. One character to one concept.
Syllabaries– Japanese and Korean. One character to one syllable
Abjads– Arabic and Tengwar. One character to one consonant; vowels are optional diacritics
Abugidas– No good examples. One character to one consonant; modify characters for vowels. Like if V is "va" but Λ is "ve"
Alphabet– Latin and derivatives. Each consonant and vowel gets a character

Well, yeah, that's all true. I'm just not sure I see why it is relevant. Still, didn't you assume that "Alphabet" in Civ was a catchall for all of those, while "Writing" referred to a next step connoting commonality of usage outside of basic record keeping symbol-making? Civ isn't completely accurate, and is certainly an abstraction of history. Cuneiform is a syllabary, but in Civ it is an alphabet.

[Razanir]

Well, yeah, that's all true. I'm just not sure I see why it is relevant. Still, didn't you assume that "Alphabet" in Civ was a catchall for all of those, while "Writing" referred to a next step connoting commonality of usage outside of basic record keeping symbol-making? Civ isn't completely accurate, and is certainly an abstraction of history. Cuneiform is a syllabary, but in Civ it is an alphabet.

Why is it relevant? It's not. I can be a font of random knowledge at times. I was more elaborating on "Alphabets are the most recent" by spewing off random information. And it gave me an excuse to type a lambda Λ. Also, I tend to see the literal meaning in stuff, so I never really thought of alternate interpretations that could lead to Alphabet predating Writing

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Caveman 2 Cosmos breaks it down even more than that. Ideograms, Pictographs, Writing, Alphabet and many others are all individual techs.

[Wardog]

I never had a problem with that. Historically in many cultures, writing was used for centuries only by an elite priestly class, or by traders. This was true of Sumer and Egypt, as examples. I always assumed Literacy meant a more widespread ability to use writing, like say at the level of Rome. Still, Literature is the better choice (and it was used in Civ 3, too), since any real civ I can think of had widespread literature as coeval with widespread literacy. As to time, though, while the turn-based research can be wonky, the timeframes do work pretty well in the ancient world to map to real historical progression.

That's what I always assumed as well.

The thing where the Civ2 tech tree got really screwy, though, was that (unlike later versions) you could get given a tech from another civ without haveing all the prerequesit techs yourself. Which in turn meant that you could completely skip a tech if you aquired all follow-on techs, and had no need of any of the units/etc that that tech gave you.

For example, there was no need to research the Wheel if you had better units than chariots (e.g. elephants), and had all following techs. And then in the late game, diplomacy with other civs would invariably involve the words "We notice you're puny civilization hasn't discovered the wheel. We will share this technology with you in exchange for the secrets of Automobile.

[Castaras]

...not screwy, the weird thing is how they got rid of that feature in later civs.

Really made the AI more fun to attack in Civ I. A slightly underdefended city could change those french attacking you with chariots to french attacking with tanks in a second. Gave an "OH @!!$" moment that is less seen in the later civs.

[Winter_Wolf]

I recommend anyone on the fence about Civ V take a look at something like the website Apolyton, which has some very nice explanations of the basics of several Civ games, and even Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (which is the reason I know the site in the first place). It swayed me into the "yeah, going to get it" camp (it could just as easily sway people into the "not for me" camp), because it explained things that are part of the game which I actually really would have liked to see in a Civ game. So that should work out for me pretty nicely.

I'd been holding off because "eh, I don't know" and "do I really want yet another piece of software I don't particularly need dipping into my system resources (Steam)?" Well between the sale at the local Target store (which I missed while hemming and hawing about the mandatory Steam install) and the guidance of aforementioned site, I discovered I'd totally be willing to get Civ V Gold...for $30 USD.

[Winthur]

For example, there was no need to research the Wheel if you had better units than chariots (e.g. elephants), and had all following techs. And then in the late game, diplomacy with other civs would invariably involve the words "We notice you're puny civilization hasn't discovered the wheel. We will share this technology with you in exchange for the secrets of Automobile.

Even funnier was the way the tech cost was measured in Civ2. Taking The Wheel again as an example - each tech's cost is basically "more research points than the previous one you've researched". So if you beelined towards some really strong techs you could've ended up at the brink of the Industrial Era without The Wheel. Then if you didn't manage to get the AI to trade it to you or bypass the The Wheel requirement in any way (and even on Deity it's easy to outstrip the AI in this way), you had to research it yourself to proceed further.

Well, our Civilization has figured out Metallurgy for Cannons, Navigation and Astronomy for ships that can leave for the open sea, Gunpowder, Democracy, et cetera...

...but damn, man, The Wheel! High tech **** right there.

And yeah, The Wheel is really useless; it's an early game tech that lets you build rather underwhelming Chariots and is a complete dead end until mid game. Due to the fact that every tech you have makes your ETA towards next techs take longer, it's kind of an "aw, nuts" situation when you pop The Wheel from a nearby hut.

Reminds me that we used to hold Succession Games for Civ4 on GitP. I think we only managed to finish one.

[Talesin]

The largest problem i've had with the game is actually getting the multiplayer to work and I still struggle to get one or two of my buddies to connect.

I do love the game though having played since Civ 2. Never really put extended time into the game but I can compete on Prince level.

Not really got a favourite Civ as I tend to random pretty much every game but I enjoyed the persians on Civ 3 because immortals were just down right insane. English Redcoats are also pretty powerful so I think they're a fun civ to play on Civ 4.

In my most recent game i'm boxed in on a continent by Tokugowa and Monty.. Better get more Longbows!

[snoopy13a]

...but damn, man, The Wheel! High tech **** right there.

And yeah, The Wheel is really useless; it's an early game tech that lets you build rather underwhelming Chariots and is a complete dead end until mid game. Due to the fact that every tech you have makes your ETA towards next techs take longer, it's kind of an "aw, nuts" situation when you pop The Wheel from a nearby hut.

Reminds me that we used to hold Succession Games for Civ4 on GitP. I think we only managed to finish one.

Ironically, Chariots are extremely overpowered in Civ 1.

In efforts to get the highest possible civilization score in Civ 1, I used to:

1) Play a small map on "real earth."
2) Play as the Germans (or was it is the Romans, can't remember) as they started with two settlers
3) Play with 7 civilizations to maximize conquering points
4) Play at Emperor level

Often times, the game would start with the Germans and the Romans practically next to each other. In addition, a starting city would begin with no defense and would actually reach level 2 before getting its first defensive unit. So, you could use your extra settler unit to conquer a city with no problem.

Hence, you'd basically start with three cities. After that, the goal is to build chariots as soon as possible as they had an attack of 4 and move of 2. Your chariots would travel around Europe, Africa, and Asia and, with luck, wipe out people without too much trouble. Last step would be to get ships in order to take out any civ on the New World or Great Britain. If gameplay lasted long enough, you upgrade Chariots to Knights (Knights had the same attack and move but 2 defense as opposed to 1) An extremely gamey-way to max-out points at Civ 1.

My favorite Civ 1 memory was when I was playing as the Americans (you'll never guess what prominent politician at the time was my "president"). My general preference is the shining city state so Washington had a population of around 24 or so and had high tech and lots of wonders, etc.

Anyway, the Indians were reaching their end game of taking over the world and started threatening me with "Our Words Are Backed With Nuclear Weapons!" I thought it was a bluff and then . . . Gandhi nuked me!!!

I also liked it when phalanxes would defeat tanks. I suppose they stuck their spears into the cannons.


As for my favorite game, probably Civ 2 with the Celts. Although not my preferred playstyle (I like the lone great city) I'd ended up playing on a large world so that I could build up spaced out cities and as a large a population base as possible. Essentially, each city, once founded, would build two settlers--one to found another city and the other to improve the original. Then I'd win via spaceship eventually.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Brave New World is now available for pre-order.

I've been reading up on what has been released so far. Still fairly surprised that there are still two civs that haven't been annouced yet. One is supposedly so unique it's "not just outside the box, it’s in an entirely separate hypercube." whatever that means. Sounds interesting though. Rumours have surfaced that the two unrevealed civs are...

Spoiler

Show

Venice and the Shoshone.

I'm thinking that I want to try out Brazil or Indonesia first, the former for the tourism and culture boost (culture is generally my prefered victory method, so I'm looking forward to trying that out) the latter for the unique unit's upgrades. Of course, if the new "hypercube" civ is really that interesting I might go for that straight away.

What are people most looking forward to in BNW? For me, all the new mechanics seem pretty cool, but tourism and architechture are the big lures.

[Seatbelt]

Ashurbanipal looks awesome. I'm excited to warmonger again.

[Chromascope3D]

I am really looking forward to the new Trade Route system, and Morocco with it.

[Artanis]

Favorite civ: Japan in V, Catherine in IV
Favorite game: Probably V, though IV is close
Favorite victory: SMASHKILLKILLDESTROYBURNKILL
Highest difficulty: Normal +1 (can't remember the name)

Syllabaries– Japanese and Korean. One character to one syllable

My (admittedly limited) understanding of Hangul, Korea's writing system, is that it's actually an alphabet: each vowel and each consonant has its own symbol. BUT! Instead of just stringing out all the letters in a row the way Latin does, Hangul groups the letters into blocks that each represent a syllable.

For example, doing that with English would make the word "rotary" be written as [Ro][Ta][Ree].

...or something like that. Wikipedia has a more in-depth explanation than I could ever muster.

[Beacon of Chaos]

The last two civs were leaked, it seems. Venice and Shoshone.

Venice's ability seems really interesting. Only one city, but I'm willing to bet those extra trade routes and ability to puppet will give them a huge economic boost.

The Shoshone are an early game civ. Ability isn't all that interesting to me, but the pathfinder is pretty huge. warrior strength scout that lets you choose which effect you get from ruins. Guarantee yourself some faith or a new tech with each one. Nice. On the other hand, brown and turquoise colour scheme. Yuck!

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Scouts that can pick their goody hut bonus? Free techs baby!

[Seatbelt]

Scouts that can pick their goody hut bonus? Free techs baby!

I'm sure it's going to be a coin-flip. IE, Whenever you would have the chance to get 1 ability, you instead pick between one or the other. It would be insanity to give them the ability to just auto-pick Techs. How does it go? Something is overpowered when the choice presented is a false choice, because one option is always the best option? You would just always pick Tech. So they cannot always give you the option to pick tech.

[Mx.Silver]

I was a bit sceptical about Venice back when it was still rumoured but that mechanic actually looks really interesting. Their Merchant of Venice unit seem interesting, and could certainly lead to some interesting developments if they're playing on the same map as Austria.

The Shoshone seem decent, fairly expansionist type of Civ (additional territory for cities has decent annoyance potential, if nothing else). Nice to get another Native American civ as well.

[Beacon of Chaos]

I'm sure it's going to be a coin-flip. IE, Whenever you would have the chance to get 1 ability, you instead pick between one or the other. It would be insanity to give them the ability to just auto-pick Techs. How does it go? Something is overpowered when the choice presented is a false choice, because one option is always the best option? You would just always pick Tech. So they cannot always give you the option to pick tech.

Maybe it will be like the Mayan long count, and you can only choose each bonus once.

I was a bit sceptical about Venice back when it was still rumoured but that mechanic actually looks really interesting. Their Merchant of Venice unit seem interesting, and could certainly lead to some interesting developments if they're playing on the same map as Austria.

Oof, wouldn't want to play as Siam on a map with those two around.

[DrBurr]

Favorite civ: Probably the Germans their my Default Civ when my first choice is taken.
Favorite game: Civ V, I've started with III and played a little IV but this one was the first I actually bought.
Favorite victory: I really like Cultural sometihng about that little scratching noise when you get enough points makes me smile and want to taunt the computer
Highest difficulty: I played on Warlord for the longest time but just switched up to Prince I'm sure I'll go up to the next level by the end of the summer.

Not really a fan over the inclusion of Venice I think there are to many European Civs in the game already. And still no Sumeria. Happy to see another American Tribe there really should be more.

[Winthur]

Something is overpowered when the choice presented is a false choice, because one option is always the best option? You would just always pick Tech. So they cannot always give you the option to pick tech.

Ever since Beyond the Sword I'm very doubtful Firaxis knows how to balance their games.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You would just always pick Tech. So they cannot always give you the option to pick tech.

No you would not 'always pick tech'. 1 free tech is very valuable, but if the tech you want is pottery so you can build a shrine to generate faith, picking a free tech over 20 free faith is stupid.

The free tech would probably be random too. Most of the time I get a free tech from a ruin its one I've already half researched. You're already making a choice to get a free tech or free pop or free culture or free faith or free map or free upgrade, I doubt choosing science will give you another level of choice.

Not really a fan over the inclusion of Venice I think there are to many European Civs in the game already. And still no Sumeria. Happy to see another American Tribe there really should be more.

Assyria and Babylon isn't Mesopotamia over-saturation enough? If there's an ancient Civ missing its the Hittites.

Ever since Beyond the Sword I'm very doubtful Firaxis knows how to balance their games.

I like the way Civ 5's factions are balanced. It isn't 'fair' but outside of a few lame ducks everyone has something broken about them. Even a so so choice like Denmark gives you the ability to use tactics no one else can match.

[Mx.Silver]

No you would not 'always pick tech'. 1 free tech is very valuable, but if the tech you want is pottery so you can build a shrine to generate faith, picking a free tech over 20 free faith is stupid.

The free tech would probably be random too. Most of the time I get a free tech from a ruin its one I've already half researched. You're already making a choice to get a free tech or free pop or free culture or free faith or free map or free upgrade, I doubt choosing science will give you another level of choice.

Culture bonus can also be quite desirable as well, as early game it's practically a free policy. Even if you aren't tech-rushing pottery, getting your foot in the door on the pantheon front can also be useful in most situations

The other thing to note is that pathfinder is more expansive to build then the Scout, which could mean an extra turn or to before it arrives, which means everyone else may have time to grab a ruin before they can get to it. If you're on a shared continent ruins get plundered quite fast, and delaying entry to that race can rob you of a lot of options. Furthermore, on maps with harder to reach ruins, e.g. islands, those tend to get camped out be barbarians, which makes getting them with scouts tricky (although Pathfinders do seem to have a higher combat strength that scouts).
So yeah, it's a decent advantage but it's not always reliable. Outside of incredibly lucky starts I don't see it putting the Shoshone ahead, say, of Babylon or Korea in tech. Whereas on unlucky starts (between to other civs with Polynesia on the field) you may not see anything out of it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Outside of incredibly lucky starts I don't see it putting the Shoshone ahead, say, of Babylon or Korea in tech. Whereas on unlucky starts (between to other civs with Polynesia on the field) you may not see anything out of it.

Shoshone won't be ahead of Babylon or Korea in tech, but they're in the versatile category not the specialised category. Babylon and Korea have the best tech but that's all they really have, while Shoshone can adapt a lot better. Tech being really important puts tech specialists in a higher tier than culture or exploration specialists but not as good as "my army can kick your ass even if its two eras behind" Ethiopia.