OOTS #896 - The Discussion Thread

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think the fiends will be able to manifest on the material plane as a consequence of the deal.

Why do you think that?

[fluke1993]

A couple things:

First as for what the ICC is calling in the debt for? V will do nothing, or encourage the destruction of the gate. I really don't think that there is much else that OJ could be calling in a portion of his debt for at this point in time. There are two likely outcomes for this situation, either V alerts the party and stops them from destroying the gate (which I believe V is capable of) or he does not alert the party and Roy destroys the gate. If the ICC wants the first result all they have to do is wait. As for how it will function, I foresee something similar to a domination spell. The goal of calling in a portion of the debt now is to destroy this gate.

Second as for why they want this? I agree with V, I don't think we (or the OOTS) really understand what the gate will do when it is destroyed. While it didn't let the snarl out, that rift sitting above goblin city is definitely a bad thing and give the information that the OOTS has could not have been predicted. I think that destroying this gate could have consequences we don't understand. Whether or not destroying the gate is the better option here I don't know.

Thirdly as for why the ICC wants this gate destroyed? I bet it has something to do with the planet in the rift. (likely the previous material plane, the one that was entangled by the gods.) My guess is that destroying this gate will widen the rift to allow something in or out that isn't the snarl.

Fourthly I think that the best option the OOTS has is allying themselves with Tarquin. Tarquin has no way of using the gate to his advantage and only bad things can happen if it is destroyed. Given the strength of both parties, they could easily hold back Xykon and Redcloak and if Xykon decides to bring the army in, Tarquin could match it with his own. Since the gate is neither controlled nor destroyed, this is the best resolution I can see

Finally OJ calling in his debt is at MOST going to use about 20 minutes of Vs debt up, given that order of custody is determined whenever the fudge the fiends want. Heck I could even see OJ only using up as much of the debt as he holds onto Vs soul for, though I have no evidence to support this.

[Finn Solomon]

You know if V is following chivalric tradition, she really should call the big bald black guy leading the party 'Sir Roy' instead of 'Sir Greenhilt'. That is, if Roy has actually been knighted. Otherwise 'Mr Greenhilt' would do just fine. If V wants to be extra polite, 'Mr Greenhilt, sir' would also be acceptable.

[Sunken Valley]

Why do you think that?

They don't want v to do nothing otherwise they wouldn't send quarr to get him moving. They said the soul would be spending time with them, but not where they would be. It would be an awesome twist. It would get them directly in the plot.

[Anarion]

They don't want v to do nothing otherwise they wouldn't send quarr to get him moving. They said the soul would be spending time with them, but not where they would be. It would be an awesome twist. It would get them directly in the plot.

I feel like that would be the sort of thing that would need to be explained and foreshadowed or it would seem weird. It's true that the Giant doesn't hold squarely to D&D spell rules for the comic and the whole IFCC soul splice thing is deep in house rules territory anyway. But I still think that, given the discussion about it so far, to have the IFCC manifest in person through V would be totally out of left field.

[Dracon1us]

One does not simply teleport into Kraagor's gate.

is this an harry potter quote?

[Nohar]

Woo, double-page!

*sees the last panel*

Oh boop

[Domino Quartz]

is this an harry potter quote?

WHAT! Blasphemy!


No. It's a quote from the Lord of the Rings movies (the first one):

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

It has since become a meme, with the form "One does not simply <verb> into <place>."

[luc258]

I think the fiends will be able to manifest on the material plane as a consequence of the deal. That's really dangerous.

I was thinking the fiends get to take control of V and might be able to channel their power through him. But I guess we will find out soon.

[Harry Leipzig]

I was thinking the fiends get to take control of V and might be able to channel their power through him. But I guess we will find out soon.

My rationale for this being the moment V's prophecy is fulfilled. The soulsplice was powerful, beyond almost everything we've seen, but it was still not enough to take down Xykon. What arcane power would be greater than possession by three fiends? I can live with the deal itself being the fulfillment of the prophecy, but I'm thinking that this is going to be the moment.

[Hopeless]

That, and...

The three fiends own the souls used in the splice, and they've rented V's soul for a certain duration without any preconditions on how it can be used. There's no reason they can't combine the four if they want to.

Wouldn't it be easier for them to just have the soul used in that soul splice to assume control uner the condition of following their patron's advice?

I mean what would be nastier... a demon/devil controlled V, an evil V or a V under control of whichever of those three souls that granted her their expanded powers?

Imagine what would happen if they got the soul that knew Familicide to get the chance to use that spell again this time on good dragons?

[137beth]

My rationale for this being the moment V's prophecy is fulfilled. The soulsplice was powerful, beyond almost everything we've seen, but it was still not enough to take down Xykon. What arcane power would be greater than possession by three fiends? I can live with the deal itself being the fulfillment of the prophecy, but I'm thinking that this is going to be the moment.

According to the commentary in DstP, V's prophecy was fulfilled during the initial soul-splice.

[Hopeless]

I got the impression from that strip that the Deva was trying to warn Roy about everything that happened with V: making the deal with the IFCC directors, casting familicide, and becoming a Trojan Horse for the IFCC to use against Roy. She referred to V's "alarming dealings with the Forces of Evil". That includes agreeing to the IFCC's terms, being spliced, and becoming an unwitting pawn of the IFCC. The warning was an attempt to counter the IFCC's influence and prevent just the sort of situation about to unfold.

Roy's dad not Roy I recall his dad even complimented V on the attempt since destroying Xykon merited more of his concern than how V was even able to try.

I also recall Roy's dad burning said files and not telling Roy about it, anyone care to correct me if I'm wrong?

[Grey Pilgrim]

They don't want v to do nothing otherwise they wouldn't send quarr to get him moving. They said the soul would be spending time with them, but not where they would be. It would be an awesome twist. It would get them directly in the plot.

Well, so far it seems they wanted Quarr to get her moving the exactly opposite way and thus to prevent her from reaching the group and presumably stopping them from destroying the gate. However V+B outlogicked the imp so this plan failed, thus leaving the directors no other option than to call upon their deal when the situation became dire. IMO this is enough to force them to get involved. And there is no need for displays of tremendeous magical power. The meaning of this action (silencing V before she can warn them not to destroy the gate) has great enough impact on its own to be worth it for the fiends.

[Harry Leipzig]

According to the commentary in DstP, V's prophecy was fulfilled during the initial soul-splice.

I see. Like I said, I'm okay with that, but I think it would've been clever if it had been a red herring. But still, I defer to the Giant's judgment. This is his story, after all.

[Dragonus45]

I think the ifcc are going for the big money here, a total inter planer genocide destroying an entire material plane and its attached planes, all while getting to survive because it was the other guys house. Or perhaps trying to force back a connection to it, so they can use infernal allies there to force a power play, heck why not even both. Bring your allies over, then blow it up so no celestial forces from house b can interfere with the plan.

[theNater]

My rationale for this being the moment V's prophecy is fulfilled. The soulsplice was powerful, beyond almost everything we've seen, but it was still not enough to take down Xykon. What arcane power would be greater than possession by three fiends? I can live with the deal itself being the fulfillment of the prophecy, but I'm thinking that this is going to be the moment.

Three things about Darth V vs. Xykon:

First, Vaarsuvius wasn't at ultimate power anymore. Haerta had already bailed, taking the necromancy with her. There are a number of necromantic spells that could have been applied to Xykon, had Haerta still been present.

Second, in a head-to-head clash of magic, Vaarsuvius' Epic Teleport overpowered Xykon's (epic) Cloister. In terms of raw arcane power, Vaarsuvius seems to have had the edge.

Third, Xykon's victory was cemented with physical force, rather than magical force. Each of them was making some progress with spells, but it was hitting Vaarsuvius with a giant boulder that really shut it down.

Vaarsuvius had ultimate arcane power briefly, but only fought Xykon at penultimate arcane power. And lost to a combination of good tactics, divine power, arcane power, and physical power.

[hamishspence]

I think that sums it up pretty well.

[137beth]

Roy's dad not Roy I recall his dad even complimented V on the attempt since destroying Xykon merited more of his concern than how V was even able to try.

I also recall Roy's dad burning said files and not telling Roy about it, anyone care to correct me if I'm wrong?

Yea, the deva tried to tell Roy, but Roy was in the middle of being resurrected. She then instructed Eugene to tell Roy. Eugene did not tell Roy. So really, this is all Eugene's fault

[Tock Zipporah]

Actually, we don't know that they do want the gates destroyed. They may just stop V from warning Roy not to destroy the gate, but they might also have V suggest an alternate way to "protect" the gate that is actually designed to leave it in their hands.

I like this. Possessed V shows up and says "I discovered X, Y, Z while we were separated and now I can" protect" the gate." Then the order agrees and bad bad bad things happen.

Second, in a head-to-head clash of magic, Vaarsuvius' Epic Teleport overpowered Xykon's (epic) Cloister. In terms of raw arcane power, Vaarsuvius seems to have had the edge.

This says nothing about "raw power." When epic spells clash, each caster makes an opposed caster level check. So similar to Dispel Magic, a lower level caster can beat a higher one if they roll higher on their check. Maybe V just rolled a Nat 20.

[Forikroder]

I like this. Possessed V shows up and says "I discovered X, Y, Z while we were separated and now I can" protect" the gate." Then the order agrees and bad bad bad things happen.



This says nothing about "raw power." When epic spells clash, each caster makes an opposed caster level check. So similar to Dispel Magic, a lower level caster can beat a higher one if they roll higher on their check. Maybe V just rolled a Nat 20.

V definently had more raw power when they fought he jsut used the power poorly

[Tock Zipporah]

V definently had more raw power when they fought...

Based on what? There's absolutely no evidence in the fight to indicate Darth V was a higher caster level than Xykon. All he had was "more spell slots," and Xykon trumped that with all of his lich abilities.

[Chessgeek]

First of all, great comic, I nearly fell off my chair seeing the last panel.

Based on what? There's absolutely no evidence in the fight to indicate Darth V was a higher caster level than Xykon. All he had was "more spell slots," and Xykon trumped that with all of his lich abilities.

So you're going to make a stand and say that V at mid level plus 3 epic spellcasters wasn't a higher level than Xykon? As Forikroder said, V had more power, but failed to use it effectively.

[tigerusthegreat]

What is interesting about the fiendish deal that V made is that there is no specific mention of whether the time must be spent consecutively or can be split into smaller portions.

Nor do we know rule-wise what happens when a soul leaves the body. From the description of magic jar (one of the few spells that I know of dealing with souls) another soul can inhabit a soulless body and do whatever it wanted.

So theorycrafting here:

Option 1: Fiend takes V's soul for a few seconds, replacing it with a fiendish soul (or direclty controlling it or whatever, effect is the same). Fiend-V can then say "We should destroy the gate" or outright destroy the gate. Net time of fiend's soul ownership will be very low (however long it takes to destroy the gate or damage it beyond repair).

Option 2: As above, Fiend takes over V, and then knocks V unconcious somehow (hitting itself over the head with a rock works). V's soul is returned to the body, but is unconcious so will probably miss the action. Net time to accomplish: probably a round or two.

Since Orange fiend has 20 minutes 35 seconds to play with (as does yellow fiend, and purple fiend has 3 minutes 6 seconds), there are a lot of options.

What I would do as a fiend of the underworld in this situation, where between myself and my associates we have 44ish minutes of soul time, is I would use as little time as possible, to keep open the option of using V again and again (this might also make V try to make another deal which would result in something the fiends want more than just soul time).

A thought that just came to me is that, using the rules of magic jar as a template, whatever soul that entered V's body could use any magical abilities it had. So to make it even easier, just pop a soul with teleport or some other transportation spell, pop V to another part of the temple (like the room with all the dead guys) and let her soul return. She can't return, as she has no spells left to do so (and cannot teleport herself). Net time: 1 round.

[Forikroder]

What is interesting about the fiendish deal that V made is that there is no specific mention of whether the time must be spent consecutively or can be split into smaller portions.

Nor do we know rule-wise what happens when a soul leaves the body. From the description of magic jar (one of the few spells that I know of dealing with souls) another soul can inhabit a soulless body and do whatever it wanted.

So theorycrafting here:

Option 1: Fiend takes V's soul for a few seconds, replacing it with a fiendish soul (or direclty controlling it or whatever, effect is the same). Fiend-V can then say "We should destroy the gate" or outright destroy the gate. Net time of fiend's soul ownership will be very low (however long it takes to destroy the gate or damage it beyond repair).

Option 2: As above, Fiend takes over V, and then knocks V unconcious somehow (hitting itself over the head with a rock works). V's soul is returned to the body, but is unconcious so will probably miss the action. Net time to accomplish: probably a round or two.

Since Orange fiend has 20 minutes 35 seconds to play with (as does yellow fiend, and purple fiend has 3 minutes 6 seconds), there are a lot of options.

What I would do as a fiend of the underworld in this situation, where between myself and my associates we have 44ish minutes of soul time, is I would use as little time as possible, to keep open the option of using V again and again (this might also make V try to make another deal which would result in something the fiends want more than just soul time).

A thought that just came to me is that, using the rules of magic jar as a template, whatever soul that entered V's body could use any magical abilities it had. So to make it even easier, just pop a soul with teleport or some other transportation spell, pop V to another part of the temple (like the room with all the dead guys) and let her soul return. She can't return, as she has no spells left to do so (and cannot teleport herself). Net time: 1 round.

all of which would be horribly overcomplicated to do sometthing thats already being done (destroying the gate)

hell even with Vs revelation theyll probably still destroy the gate even with V there still epicly outgunned

i mean they could just have Q start blasting V and force him to shut up

[tigerusthegreat]

Hmm...what if they do the soul swap thing to give V a dimension door to appear and stop them from blowing up the gate? I mean, we have no clue what they really want, perhaps they don't want the gate blown up but needed an opportunity to stop it.

Had V been with the party, they'd have had a calm talk about it. Now that V is frantic, she will just do whatever possible to stop them from blowing up the gate.

In any case, the fiend's power over V is useless if she is driven apart from the party permanently. They chose V because of her position in the OOTS and proximity to this important mission. I don't see V blasting the party to bits or anything like that.

[Tock Zipporah]

First of all, great comic, I nearly fell off my chair seeing the last panel.



So you're going to make a stand and say that V at mid level plus 3 epic spellcasters wasn't a higher level than Xykon? As Forikroder said, V had more power, but failed to use it effectively.

I don't think their caster levels stacked. They just had a greater total pool of spell slots. Caster level to determine damage, duration, etc should have been limited to each individual. So no, I don't think they were "more powerful than" Xykon.

[Chessgeek]

I don't think their caster levels stacked. They just had a greater total pool of spell slots. Caster level to determine damage, duration, etc should have been limited to each individual. So no, I don't think they were "more powerful than" Xykon.

Meh fair enough. The two epics individually probably could have won, but since they were limited to only acting with V, it did just mean extra spell slots at the end of the day.

[Obscure Blade]

Vaarsuvius had ultimate arcane power briefly, but only fought Xykon at penultimate arcane power. And lost to a combination of good tactics, divine power, arcane power, and physical power.

And V's poor tactics, and the fact that as Xykon put it, his/her new powers were still "shackled to your lame mid-leveled ass!" As impressive as they were V's soul splice boosts were fundamentally fragile, as Xykon demonstrated.

[Akritas]

TBH, I'm not sure why V thinks destroying a gate destroys a world. After all, Blackwing saw the planet well after the gate was destroyed so there doesn't seem any particular reason to think that it was destroyed by the gate's destruction. I guess anything is possible, but it hardly seems like a sure think based on the very limited information we have.