OOTS #897 - The Discussion Thread

[SavageWombat]

Yes, you're all right - there's more to the evil plan than just this. Since they didn't know the outcome of the V/X fight at the time, they couldn't have known V would learn about the world in the rift - so the plan wouldn't have centered on just preventing Roy from learning of it.

[eras10]

If the Girarders were still alive, the IFCC probably would not have chosen to use their soul option on V at this particular moment. Their ultimate plan may not need to focus on specific details such has how and when each individual gate is destroyed or not destroyed. They are watching, being flexible, and reacting to the situation as needed.

This is a good point, as was whoever the prior was suggesting that the point of the soul splice deal was just to provoke Xykon into not falling so far behind as to throw the game to OOTS...... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .. i guess.

[Marlowe]

This might have been true at some time in the First or Second Age. But during the War of the Ring the elves are notable by their inactivity. Lorien contributes some equipment, Mirkwood sends Legolas, Rivendell offers lodging and advice, the Grey Havens send nothing as far as I can tell. Given the catastrophe they face it's a pathetic effort. Galadriel personally is one of the most powerful figures in Middle Earth, so she probably could have made a substantial contribution just on her own, but instead the elves let Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Erebor, etc. do the lifting.

No Oh! Looks like somebody's not familiar with the appendices!

Or maybe you are; since you mention Dale and Erebor, but it's specifically stated that Lorien was under attack out of Dol Guldur at the exact same time. You appear to have missed this.

What was Galadriel doing while the Battle of the Pellenor went on? She was fighting for her life and the lives of her people. What was she doing while Frodo was climbing mount Doom? She was putting together an assault on Dol Guldur.

As for the other Elven strongholds, Rivendell doesn't appear to have much in the way of military resources, North Mirkwood was heavily engaged along with Dale and Erebor, and the Havens were just too far away to effect things in time. The War of the Ring went from ominous forebodings to climactic battles very quickly. And people on LoTR don't have things like "Teleportation Circle" to move their forces around fast. In a landmass that's a lot larger than europe and less well-equipped with useful river lines or seacoasts.

As for the comic, anticlimactic, yet great. Or great because anticlimactic. It means the IFCC's game is deeper than I was thinking, and I'm looking forward to V vs Sabine.

[eras10]

For that matter, it's entirely possible that destroying the Gate is the right thing for the Order to do here - the fiends want to stop either side from claiming a complete victory, which means it helps them not at all if Xykon wins right now.

If Xykon and/or Redcloak really can use the gate to blackmail the gods of good, then that may be true, but at this point you have to wonder if the Dark One himself is wrong or has been misled about the whole deal. For all we know, he has a deal with the fiends, while I'm talking crazy.

Anyway, it would be a pretty clever twist if it turns out that letting Redcloak and Xykon control the gate would be more or less completely harmless and useless to them, the ritual doesn't work, etc, and the real threat involves blowing them up.

Although it's going to take a certain degree of explaining about all the people who died standing too close to the rifts before.

[Vectner]

I'm so confused, what is going on?

[magic9mushroom]

I'm looking forward to V vs Sabine.

I'm more interested in V/Sabine.

(Remember, Sabine actually rather likes V cf. their discussion over drinks in Azure City.)

[Kish]

I'm so confused, what is going on?

You have two options. Elaborate. Or reread the entire comic.

[Iago]

V lost Haerta first after dealing with the Black Mamma Dragon, the two other souls later when being sledgehammered by Xykon. The call options of the fiends on V's soul correspond with the time he used their souls.

Oh, I understand that. The options noted that each one of the IFCC called up _A_ soul for the splice, and V would owe the IFCC a like amount of time for the duration of each individual splice.

Nero called up Haerta; Haerta escaped post-Familicide, so V owes Nero the three minutes six seconds of that bind. Lee and Cedric called up Ganonron and Jepthon, who both escaped at the same time. My question was that when Lee said "twenty minutes, 35 seconds for him (Cedric) and me" was whether this meant twenty minutes total (i.e., V held each of them for ten minutes seventeen seconds), or twenty minutes plus each. I suspect it was the latter.

[Obscure Blade]

Though I must admit, I have no idea what the IFCC's plan is at this point. Why are they interested in the destruction of the Gates?

One possibility: They do have some plan to take control of a gate and unleash the Snarl, but they want the gate they control to be the only gate left for some reason. Perhaps if there's more than one left someone at the other one could use their own ritual and grab control away.

[Kish]

Oh, I understand that. The options noted that each one of the IFCC called up _A_ soul for the splice, and V would owe the IFCC a like amount of time for the duration of each individual splice.

Nero called up Haerta; Haerta escaped post-Familicide, so V owes Nero the three minutes six seconds of that bind. Lee and Cedric called up Ganonron and Jepthon, who both escaped at the same time. My question was that when Lee said "twenty minutes, 35 seconds for him (Cedric) and me" was whether this meant twenty minutes total (i.e., V held each of them for ten minutes seventeen seconds), or twenty minutes plus each. I suspect it was the latter.

Well, in the latest comic Cedric says that he--and only he--is calling in "twenty minutes, thirty-five seconds" of debt, so presumably Lee has the same amount as well.

[attriel]

In the grand mode of conflict, I imagine the IFCC agrees with OotS. "If we try to defend it, we're dead, they win, game over"

And IFCC doesn't want game over. They're playing Risk, dammit, not candyland! KEEP PLAYING! ;)

I imagine they probably have some track on LG and/or TE and know there's a fight coming down the stairs. Probably enough to lag the destruction, so they need the order to be moving in the right direction so that when they have the chance they take it. V stopping them now might give them pause when they need to move.

[drazen]

Since they didn't know the outcome of the V/X fight at the time, they couldn't have known V would learn about the world in the rift - so the plan wouldn't have centered on just preventing Roy from learning of it.

The fiends don't actually seem to know about the planet, though. See strip #659. They state outright that they don't know what happens if the phylactery falls into the hole (Qarr, Yellow-Eyed Fiend) and they don't know why Blackwing is just staring into the rift, transfixed (Orange-Eyed Fiend).

[Shale]

If Xykon and/or Redcloak really can use the gate to blackmail the gods of good, then that may be true, but at this point you have to wonder if the Dark One himself is wrong or has been misled about the whole deal. For all we know, he has a deal with the fiends, while I'm talking crazy.

Anyway, it would be a pretty clever twist if it turns out that letting Redcloak and Xykon control the gate would be more or less completely harmless and useless to them, the ritual doesn't work, etc, and the real threat involves blowing them up.

They outright said they don't want Xykon and Redcloak to win ("Because we're all Evil, we're one big happy family? Screw that.") - they want pointless, destructive conflict. If Xykon arrives and walks all over everybody, the conflict's over.

[Dracon1us]

I'm more interested in V/Sabine.

(Remember, Sabine actually rather likes V cf. their discussion over drinks in Azure City.)

I'm with you sister!
brace yourselves...hot things are coming!


the fiends are just profiting from the situation...

[Grey Pilgrim]

Yes! Called it! In your fa... (oh, nevermind, I'm just really really happy I did guess right)

Wonderful art and a wonderful story twist, Mr. Giant!

[hamishspence]

They state outright that they don't know what happens if the phylactery falls into the hole (Qarr, Yellow-Eyed Fiend) and they don't know why Blackwing is just staring into the rift, transfixed (Orange-Eyed Fiend).

True. (Yellow-Eyed Fiend is Lee, Orange-Eyed is Cedrik, Purple-Eyed is Nero).

[AgentofHellfire]

One possibility: They do have some plan to take control of a gate and unleash the Snarl, but they want the gate they control to be the only gate left for some reason. Perhaps if there's more than one left someone at the other one could use their own ritual and grab control away.

I tend to wonder whether or not, somehow, the archfiends know about that world inside the rift--at the very least, they know about it now from watching V, so it might've been involved in their plans all along.

It might just be that their plan is to take over that world...

[CWH10301964]

In any event, we all knew that gate was going to go BOOM. It was interesting to see where the IFCC stood on the matter.

[Ivrytwr]

I like the art work here, good job Giant.
So, V gets twenty minutes on the couch with Sabine?
Rough assignment you pulled there!

[pearl jam]

In a landmass that's a lot larger than europe and less well-equipped with useful river lines or seacoasts.

Nitpick. Given that the land mass where the events of LoTR take place is intended to be the Europe of a distant past, I expect it ought to be roughly similar in size, should it not?

[SterlingAvenger]

That's really mean, really clever and really funny.
A trio I approve of.

[Smolder]

I have never wanted an exposition-heavy strip as much as I do right now.

[Adeptus]

Awesome comic! And most of us didn't predict it would play out this way.

[Vinsfeld]

Pretty cool "special effects"

[NerdyKris]

Aw man. And I was so positive the deal meant control of the body as well.

This is a clever use of the terms, though. No torture. Just removing V from the scene for 20 minutes.

[137beth]

Awesome. No possession or ridiculous splices. Just an empty shell left:)

Also I love that scene from Goldfinger!

Hurray, all the people who said it had to involve possession were wrong

[Marlowe]

Nitpick. Given that the land mass where the events of LoTR take place is intended to be the Europe of a distant past, I expect it ought to be roughly similar in size, should it not?

Counter-nitpick: the area is the same. The Landmass is a lot bigger.

EDIT: I apologise, that was needlessly curt.

To clarify; If the Shire is suppoed to be southern England, then the Grey Havens are well out in what's now the Atlantic.

[mattie_p]

This is a clever use of the terms, though. No torture. Just removing V from the scene for 20 minutes.

V has to watch the scene play out, while sitting next to Sabine, while held immobile, and can't do anything at all to prevent what s/he thinks is a big mistake, and you don't think this is torture?

[Doug Lampert]

Plus if they possessed V and he knew, he'd consider himself a danger to the Order and separate himself from them. Know he has no reason to do that. He may be a momentary liability ofc but he cannot be actively used against them so it is in his best interest to stay with them (as long as he tells Roy everything ofc so he knows he cannot depend on V being there).

And this works even better if they are LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH about not being able to possess V. Seriously, one of the arguments last thread was that V would hang virself to avoid being actively used against the order once V realized it was possible.

Here they take V out of the picture, retain most of their possession time, and tell V that they can't actually do anything worse than this.

Why trust them? Being truthful MOST of the time is a fine way to set up a lie when you need one.

If all they need to do here is stop V from preventing the destruction of the gate, then REGARDLESS of whether or not they can possess V, what they are doing now is correct.

[Sharp-kun]

While they have his soul, whats to stop them later corrupting it in some way so that they don't need to posess him?