Warhammer 40K Tactics

[tyckspoon]

Generic Marine lists (represented in-universe foremost by the Ultramarines) can be built to focus on pretty much any style of army you want. Their stat-lines are good enough for them to do well in almost every phase of the game, so it's mostly a matter of what wargear you buy for your squads and which part of the org. chart you want to focus on once you have your Troops core- pick tanks and Devastators for a shooty army, Assault Squads (and maybe bikes and Rhinos for transport, if those turn out to work for you) for more of an assault focus, Terminators and Scouts if you like living dangerous with Reserve rolls and having your forces show up next to or behind the enemy.. lots of options.

The Blood Angels still have those options- they're still Marines at the core. However, the Blood Angels special units and special rules favor assault (this is something of an understatement in regards to the Death Company.) So the classic/stereotypical Blood Angels army is very assault-heavy, with a tendency to rush across the board as fast as possible and start smashing faces, like a Khorn Chaos Marines army with better fire-support.

[Kane]

Thousand point games, or joint games with my Tau and SMs vs. 1600 pts of necrons. (More likely to be an ally than Tyranids or Orks.)

My army list is 1000 points, and if I stretch it with upgrades and units, I think I could up it to 1250. I bought a megaforce and a Crisis commander, so my forces consist of HQ crisis suit, 2 crisis suits, 3 man stealth team, 3 piranhas, Hammerhead, devilfish, and 20 firewarriors. A single networked markerlight and a markerlight drone are also available to me.

My actually army list is

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Commander Shas'o (75)- Plasma Rifle (20), Missile Pod (12), Flamer (4), Hard-wired Target Lock, (5) Hardwired Multi-Tracker (5), Stimulant Injectors (10), Hard-Wired Drone Controller (0), 2 Gun Drones (20)
132pts

Elites
Crisis Team- 2 Shas'ui (50)- Both have Plasma Rifles (40), Missile Pods (24) and Multi-Trackers (10)
124pts

Stealth Team- 2 Shas'ui (60) 1 Shas'vre (40) + Marker light (10)
100pts

Troops
Fire Warrior Team- 12 Shas'la (120)- Devilfish Transport (80)
200pts

Fire Warrior Team- 8 Shas'la (80)
80pts

Fast Attack
Piranha Light Skimmer (60)- Fusion Blaster (5), Targeting Array (10), Decoy Launchers (5)
80pts

Piranha Light Skimmer (60)- Fusion Blaster (5), Targeting Array (10), Decoy Launchers (5)
80pts

Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship (90)- Railgun (50), Smart Missile System (20), Multi-Tracker (10), Decoy Launchers (5)
175pts

Total: 1000pts

here. Feel free to suggest modifications I can make to better face down necrons without shelling out $115 USD for a trio of broadsides. Also, I haven't finished the Piranhas or Hammerhead, but am planning on magnetizing them. Meaning that I can switch out the burst cannons for fusion blasters, and my Railhead can magically turn into an Ionhead.

[Dervag]

Is there any way to make Imperial Guard infantry effective in the assault role?

I'm thinking in terms of "countercharge" here.

[SolkaTruesilver]

There is the "hate Xenos" doctrine, but sadly only effective against a dedicated ennemy, and you need model fluff for it to be accepted (ex: Orcs heads on your vehicules).

The Commissar special character in the latest Codex (not Yedrick) grants +1 attack to every model in a combat when he charges in an already declared combat. I am sure it can be used to your advantage (ex: mass of orcs against mass of Shock Troopers. With this guy, you effective doubled the power of your Soldiers)

[Dervag]

There is the "hate Xenos" doctrine, but sadly only effective against a dedicated ennemy, and you need model fluff for it to be accepted (ex: Orcs heads on your vehicules).

In my case, it would actually make sense for the unit to have "Xenos fighters: Ork," so I'll think about that.

The Commissar special character in the latest Codex (not Yedrick) grants +1 attack to every model in a combat when he charges in an already declared combat. I am sure it can be used to your advantage (ex: mass of orcs against mass of Shock Troopers. With this guy, you effective doubled the power of your Soldiers)

I was thinking more in terms of arms and equipment than special characters, to tell the truth. It would feel very out of place for me if my Imperial Guard formation were led by Colonel-Commissar Gaunt, seeing as how they've probably never even heard of Tanith.

What I envisioned was a unit with the right weapons mix to deliver a nasty volley of close-range fire in the Fire phase, then charge into combat in the Assault phase. Any advice on how to create that, or whether it's even worth bothering to try?

[Dallas-Dakota]

Why won't you just make a general warhammer 4o k thread?

Every time I see one die, I see a 1 and 1/12th of a new one pop up three days later.

[Dervag]

This thread seems to be evolving into such a general thread, but it's a bit soon to tell.

[Tren]

The Blood Angels codex is built for very scary CC options. Things like the Death Company (which come free based on what units you take elsewhere), Death Watch Furiosos (Two DCCs and an extra D3 attacks), and Dante. There is nothing quite as obscene in CC as Dante in an honor guard with a tech marine, champion, and standard bearer.

While they still have most of the same functionality of a standard space marine army, their special rules really promote an in-your-face, in assault on turn one kind of play style. I'd love to play a BA army if I didn't hate them so much, but they're definitely a fun army.

[13_CBS]

A bit of a fluff question:

Aside from cultural stuff like Rune Priests and general chapter "personalities", what's the fucntional difference between the Space Wolf-descended chapters and Blood Angel-descended chapters? Both seem like assaulty, CQC focusing armies.

[Wraith]

Functionally, Blood Angels are more expensive but you get a 'free' Squad of very tough CC maniacs in every battle.
Space Wolves, on the other hand, get a few extra options for their existing Squads and vehicles (Dreadnoughts in particular, if I remember correctly) but have to pay for their deformed 'elite' Squad like a normal FOC choice.

The difference really is in the fluff, just as it is between Iron Hands and Imperial Fists, or the White Scars and the Ravenwing.

[Selrahc]

The Blood Angels codex is built for very scary CC options. Things like the Death Company (which come free based on what units you take elsewhere), Death Watch Furiosos (Two DCCs and an extra D3 attacks), and Dante. There is nothing quite asobscene in CC as Dante in an honor guard with a tech marine, champion, and standard bearer.

Chaplain, Librarian, Force Commander, Techmarine and a Terminator assault command squad with lightning claws and furious charge? A squad of incubi with an archite? 2 Bloodthirsters? The Nightbringer? A Grey Knight grandmaster with a terminator retinue and an attached Inquisitor Lord and 3 Inquisitors?

[Eldan]

The Phoenix King of Scorpions with an entire squad + exarch with power fist?

[Bryn]

This thread seems to be evolving into such a general thread, but it's a bit soon to tell.

It seems that this is the successor of the old general thread. It's been around for some time, and I hope it does so.

If you're wondering about the models thread, that's a spinoff. Here is where we talk about the game, there is where we talk about the hobby, and we talk about the background in both.

[hr]
On Dervag's army...
For my army I'll probably take Xenos Fighters: Tyranids for fluff reasons, but in general I imagine that doctrine wouldn't be a huge amount of use unless your army was built for close combat.

Still, I would presume that doctrines are the best way to build it for close combat, although that might weaken your shooting. Nonetheless, with enough numbers, the Guard can probably do reasonably well up close.

Close Order Drill would seem to be pretty good for close combat, and it's free - you'd have to make sure your squads pile in, but otherwise you get +1 Initiative. Combined with Xenos Fighers, you would be hitting before the Orks (I think, I lack an Ork codex) and on a 3+. Taking Warrior Weapons (which, bizarrely, costs more than having a lasgun, even though it's probably harder to bring them to bear than rapid-firing lasguns) would net an extra +1 attack per Guardsman.

Therefore, get a whole bunch of cheap conscripts with las/ccw. Xeno-fighters means WS is irrelevant, and you get a ton of attacks; if they are packed in tightly together you also hit first. Unhappy Orks.

[Tren]

Chaplain, Librarian, Force Commander, Techmarine and a Terminator assault command squad with lightning claws and furious charge? A squad of incubi with an archite? 2 Bloodthirsters? The Nightbringer? A Grey Knight grandmaster with a terminator retinue and an attached Inquisitor Lord and 3 Inquisitors?

Don't forget Abbadon! Also, touché

Still they're pretty nasty. Dante grants favored enemy to any BA within 12'', reduces the WS and BS of enemies within 6'' by one, the standard bearer grants an extra attack and rerollable leadership saves to his squad, half the squad has power weapons plasma pistols and 2+ armor saves and iron halos abound, oh and there's an apothecary who makes it very difficult to get ranged shots through those 2+/4+ saves and actually have a wound stick >_<

And then there's death company right behind

[Kane]

Since my broader questions weren't answered, I'll try and be more specific:

I have one, count it, one railgun. (Hammerhead tank skimmer). I can switch it out for the Ioncannon, which is good vs. MEQs, (AP3, high strength) But that discards my one and only railgun. And, I think, my best chance of taking down the monolith, since I hear the Fusionblasters (Meltas, for all intents and purposes, I think) I can give crisis suits and Piranhas aren't effective against monoliths.

So, which do I need, the Ion Cannon or the Railgun? Also, would I be better off using Burstcannons on my Piranhas, or Fusion blasters.

Fusion Blasters: 12', Str 8, AP 1, Assault 1 & melta
Burstcannon: 18", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 3

Note: all of these can be found on the free (downloadable!) Tau quick reference sheet, so I'm not expecting that posting these will be a problem.

[Tren]

Admittedly I haven't had the opportunity to face Necrons yet, but the consensus I've gotten from everyone I ask is don't shoot at the monolith. It's a trap, a big point heavy fire-magnet trap. A lot of people say the best strategy is to focus on forcing a phase out, and AP3 weaponry will go a long way towards mowing down some MEQs.

[Wraith]

Tren speaks the truth, though I would be cautious in a small (1500pts or less) game.

Necron players know full well how you're probably going to try to beat them, and deep-striking the Monolith into your deployment zone is too big of a danger to ignore, while leaving the Necron Warriors unscathed will hurt in the long run. In a small game, where Heavy Weapons are in short supply, the Monolith can wipe out half an army per turn which only makes it harder for you to outgun his precious Troops.

Unfortunately it's never as easy as "Take the Ion Cannon and you'll win", especially depending on what kind of scenario you end up playing.
The Railgun will probably kill a Monolith in one good shot, killing your opponents' single most expensive model and doing half the job of winning a Meat Grinder for you, whereas the Ion Cannon will be more use at killing Warriors which are what you will need to kill for any kind of Take And Hold scenario.

Decide, here and now, how you expect to win - killing Troops that can claim objectives, or killing lots of expensive models for the Victory Points - and build your army accordingly.

Failing that, double up on Fire Warriors and Rapid Fire him into oblivion regardless of what he throws at you

[Trond Forgelighter]

I happen to play necrons and i personally find tau possibly the easiest match up we have. Yes rail guns are deadly against monoliths but if we deep strike it and it is in reserve we have a turn or 2 to attempt to deal with anti tank. and in 5th ed on a glance we have a really good chance of preventig you from firing that railgun, i think 5 out of 6. it takes 18 firewarrior shots (at BS 3) to kill one necron warrior. any good necron player will most likely have a res orb in range so negating WBB is hard, the trick is to force them to spread out, place the objectives far apart or split your forces because usually necron players only take one lord.

going for phase out as a strategy against your friend dosen't mean much, going for phase out against an army sporting a nightbringer, a monolith and a full squad of pariahs is a strategy, but of he has the necron warrior phalanx going for phase out is like saying your strategy is to kill his guys.

I have never lost to tau playing necrons, but all the games that i have played go very slowly and are boring, because you can't really kill us and we just slowly kill you.

I would actually refrain from doubling up on firewarriors, since they are relatively ineffectual at hurting warriors, vespids and anything ap3 hurts us. Crisis suits ability to move shoot move is annoying, but they don't generally do that much damage. Also if you use broadsides or anything static with a lot of firepower position them in difficult terrain, anywhere scarabs have a hard time getting.

Good luck on fighting a necron player with tau but don't feel bad if you loose.

[Dervag]

Therefore, get a whole bunch of cheap conscripts with las/ccw. Xeno-fighters means WS is irrelevant, and you get a ton of attacks; if they are packed in tightly together you also hit first. Unhappy Orks.

WAAAA- AAGH! AAGH! GET 'EM OFF ME! AAARrgh...

Tren speaks the truth, though I would be cautious in a small (1500pts or less) game.

Necron players know full well how you're probably going to try to beat them, and deep-striking the Monolith into your deployment zone is too big of a danger to ignore, while leaving the Necron Warriors unscathed will hurt in the long run. In a small game, where Heavy Weapons are in short supply, the Monolith can wipe out half an army per turn which only makes it harder for you to outgun his precious Troops.

If the tau have fusion blasters, isn't the Monolith in a lot of danger of being taken out when it's deployed that close to the tau lines?

[Selrahc]

If the tau have fusion blasters, isn't the Monolith in a lot of danger of being taken out when it's deployed that close to the tau lines?

No. Without multiple D6 of armour penetration(because its a monolith) its relatively safe from strength 8 shots.

[Dervag]

Did the rules change on me with the new edition?

I thought fusion blasters benefitted from the "Melta" special rule, and did have 2d6 of armor penetration.

[Wraith]

The rules have not changed, Dervag - Fusion Blasters still have 'Melta', which is still an extra d6 for penetration.

The Monolith, however, benefits from a unique special rule which prevents opponents from rolling more than 1d6 for any penetration rule, and it means that they cannot modify the Monolith's armour in any way.

Against the Monolith only, Melta does not grant an extra d6. Monstrous Creatures do not roll Strength+2d6. Sniper weapons that count as AP1 under certain conditions, do not apply (The errata says that 'the Monolith has no weak spots to exploit'). Bright Lances do not lower it's armour to 12.

99% of everything rolls Strength+1d6 vs. AV14 when attacking the Monolith, and the only exceptions to this are Eldar D-Cannons, Wraithcannons and Haywire Grenades because they have special rules that essentially avoid the entire 'roll for penetration' process and therefore avoid any rules regarding penetration too.

Reason #17 as to why people don't like fighting against Monoliths. Reason #1 as to why Necrons don't like fighting my Wraithguard army...

[Da King]

Just Picked up a Basilisk, 20 Guardsmen, and a Heavy Weapons Squad. I have enough parts to make every single heavy weapon team and I have a few questions:
1. What's the best way to use a Basilisk in a game?
2. Which Heavy weapons are the most cost effective? I'm making HB, Mortar, and ML squads, but the Lascannons are kind of expensive, and Autocannons I don't know enough about.
3. Should I use the Autocannons/Lascannons to equip Sentinels instead of making heavy weapon teams?

[tribble]

Railguns are strength 10, so a single broadside team can blast the monolith from almost anywhere. set 'em up in cover and poke holes in the monoliths. alternatively, go for a hammerhead with a railgun and once you blow a hole in the monolith, use the submunition profile on the warriors. or don't, I am not clear on exactly how the We'll be back rule works, so I would need to have a copy of the rule to crunch the numbers and tell you if a S6 blast is more conducive to victory than a single S10 shot. if it's the single, take the broadsides. two railguns are better than one.

This is changing the subject, but does anyone else think that Chaos Space Marines are custom made to kill commanders? 5 noise marines can wound a space marine commander every turn if they are sitting still, and if they have a blastmaster they have a better than 50/50 chance of scoring Instant Death on anything with Toughness 4 or higher. berserkers have a Weapon Skill of 5 and, once you account for their pistol/close-combat-weapon combo and mark of Khorne, three attacks each, four on the charge and a skull champion has five on the charge and four every turn off the charge. And Berserkers and Noise Marines are Troop choices. that means in one turn I can pick up half the VP value of anything with strength 4 or lower, and even blow it into little bits more than half of the time, getting Full VP value. and I haven't even started on Chaos spawn, Daemons and possesed. (I have 5 possesed marines, but I do not intend to use them. they are not reliable, thanks to Daemonkin.) of course, Thousand Sons are fiends too, since they dont lose 2/3 of the wounds they cause to the Power Armor, and if you give the aspiring sorceror Doombolt they become the firing squad from hell. and then if you bring in some Raptors with the mark of Nurgle, you can assault a commander and delay him for at least 2 turns, during which he could have been heroically dismembering scoring units and assisting his own scoring units. you could possibly even score a wound and pick up a few victory points easy. A Chaos Dreadnought packs a twin linked bolter or a missle launcher, plus an additional weapon at the level of twin-linked lascannon, plasma cannon, twin-linked autocannon or multi-melta. Admittedly, you'd rather target a vehicle with this, but Instant Death make a magnificent mess out of commanders.kit the chosen out with a lot of Anti-Armour weapons, and *ding* walking death for commanders, you want fries with that? so that's three out of five CSM troop choices that can ruin a points-heavy commander's day, two out of three fast attack (including the Chaos Spawn) and three out of four elites. of course any heavy support choice has the potential to deep-fry a commander, that's a given. Warptime turns Sorcerors into killing machines. Of course this means they won't be using their power weapon psychic attack on that turn... unless they are Ahriman. Ahriman is a beast. doombolt+Warptime+Force attack=dead ex-multi-wound unit.

[Psychotic]

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective (or maybe the right perspective...). If you put your mind to it, any army kill kill any unit or IC in a single turn. What you basically did in your large chunk of paragraph was stack the odds entirely against a Space Marine Commander. If I shoot him with 20 Guardians and assault him in one turn, he will probably die. Does that mean the Eldar are made to kill Space Marines? No. It just means that Space Marines can and will die. In the situations that you put him in, it's essentially a no brainer that the Commander will die. There's a decent chance that he'll take stuff down with him, but he'll probably die. He isn't some crazy unkillable god of war.

Besides, most Space Marine players (most players in general, actually) will be careful about how they use their HQ unit. Very rarely will a situation will occur where the HQ just gets jumped and ganked unless either a mistake was made or there was a forced sacrifice. A lone HQ unit will rarely win it for you. It's how you use that unit in conjunction with the rest of the army that matters.

But to answer your question - Yes. Chaos Space Marines tend to have very effective ways to kill things. So does every other army in the game.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective (or maybe the right perspective...). If you put your mind to it, any army kill kill any unit or IC in a single turn.

Except a Monolith

[Oslecamo]

In the rare cases that a monolith is destroyed, the attackers discover it actually runs fueled by gornozola and other great quality cheeses.

[Trond Forgelighter]

Railguns are strength 10, so a single broadside team can blast the monolith from almost anywhere. set 'em up in cover and poke holes in the monoliths. alternatively, go for a hammerhead with a railgun and once you blow a hole in the monolith, use the submunition profile on the warriors. or don't, I am not clear on exactly how the We'll be back rule works, so I would need to have a copy of the rule to crunch the numbers and tell you if a S6 blast is more conducive to victory than a single S10 shot. if it's the single, take the broadsides. two railguns are better than one.

Though two railguns are better then one broadsides are fairly easy to tie up with scarabs, sometimes this lasts the entire game other times you can break it easily with reinforcements. turbo boosting scarabs will most likely get there second turn and unless you do something about it tie up your broadsides for the entire game. The hammerhead on the other hand can easily be shaken or stunned enough to prevent it from firing, however if it keeps its distance there is nothing that can really destroy it, except heavy destroyers. And heavy destroyers are one of the most expensive things in the necron army and are hugely expensive for just two lascannons. So remember if you take broadsides your friend can tie them up with his dirt cheap scarabs, with a hammerhead he needs hvy destroyers which are more expensive.

on a different subject it may seem illogical to shoot at necron destroyers but it can be more efficient then shooting at warriors if you wipe them all out. Unless fo course your friend has a tomb spyder or other destroyers nearby.

[Eldan]

Well, I only played Necrons once. I used deepstriking swooping hawks on turn 2 (lucky roll) and blasted it to oblivion with their grenades.
Good times. I still lost, but it was very close.

[Wraith]

1. What's the best way to use a Basilisk in a game?
2. Which Heavy weapons are the most cost effective? I'm making HB, Mortar, and ML squads, but the Lascannons are kind of expensive, and Autocannons I don't know enough about.
3. Should I use the Autocannons/Lascannons to equip Sentinels instead of making heavy weapon teams?

1. Sit it in the tightest corner of your deployment area as you can - preferably on the very corner of the table so there's oblivion on 3 of it's 4 sides. It's open topped and has relatively weak armour, so you do NOT want things to be able to shoot at it's side or (god forbid) rear for any reason.

With the range of it's cannon, you can hit anything on the table, even in Apocalypse games. Pick a target and nuke it. Rinse and repeat.
A friend of mine has just suggested using a 'shield' of conscripts in the FRONT side of the Basilisk - that way it can't be shot at from the rear or sides, and the front gets a 4+ cover save by sacrificing extremely cheap and useless points. Also means it can't be charged in close combat, as your opponent has to kill the conscripts first before they can come into contact - an extra turn of shooting before it gets ripped apart!

2: I personally prefer autocannons as a general-use armament, as they're reasonably good against most enemies for a middle-range cost, but don't let that stop you changing them if you're facing different enemies. The lascannons will be a very good investment if you suspect that there are Monoliths or Wraithlord prowling around your next battle.

3: Again, depends on who you're fighting.
Sentinels are good for taking the fight to static armies (Shooty-Eldar, Shooty Marines, usually Tau) thanks to their Scouting ability, but against mobile ones (Tyranids, Dark Eldar) there's not really any need to get so close, so soon.
I would recommend taking a few of both if possible, so that you can play with them and decide which you LIKE to use the most, as that is usually going to be the deciding factor unless you need an emergency sideboard for fighting a particular enemy.

on a different subject it may seem illogical to shoot at necron destroyers but it can be more efficient then shooting at warriors if you wipe them all out. Unless fo course your friend has a tomb spyder or other destroyers nearby.

On the contrary, it's a very good idea. Destroyers are fast moving, so killing them stops the Necrons from getting into CC with you and therefore preventing you from shooting at them, so blowing them away in the first turn gives you the next 1 or even 2 turns to leisurekly snipe at the rest of the enemy.
And then you've got the whole Necron/Phase Out thing to boot. I struggle to find reasons as to why you SHOULDN'T shoot Destroyers first (the possible exception being the Tomb Spider, of course )