D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

[TuggyNE]

Welcome to the 12th thread discussing D&D 5th Edition, aka D&D Next!

As is (by now) well known to every RPGer who hasn’t spent the past year hiding under a rock, a new edition of D&D is coming out. When? Well, they’re not telling us. What they are giving us is an open playtest, which you can sign up for right here. At the time of writing, the most recent playtest packet dates from June 14th, 2013.

Use this thread to discuss the playtest, the weekly mostly-weekly Legends and Lore update articles from Mike Mearls, and other news relating to D&D’s new edition.

Useful (and freshly updated!) links:

• Playtest Signup
• Legends and Lore Archive
• EN World D&D Forum

Penny Arcade / PvP 5e Podcasts:

• Part 1 of 4
• Part 2 of 4
• Part 3 of 4
• Part 4 of 4

Previous threads:

• First Edition
• Second Edition
• Third Edition
• 3.5th Edition
• Fourth Edition
• D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread
• D&D 5th Edition: 6th Thread and counting
• D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
• D&D 5th Edition: 8th Revision and counting
• Pathfinder, Next, and the Future of D&D
• D&D 5th Edition IX: Still in the Idea Stage
• D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?
• D&D 5th Edition XI: The 15-Minute Designer Workday

[Turalisj]

I'm still not convinced we'll actually see a new edition, that this isn't just testing the waters to see if a new edition is viable (doesn't look like it is at this point).

[Felhammer]

How powerful should Dragons be?

In your minds imagine the way you feel D&D should be. Then imagine yourself standing upon the rolling grassy hills in a serene dale. It's almost noon, without a cloud in sight. The summer heat hasn't quite arrived yet and a gentle breeze blows in from the north-west. A small castle over looks a large area of land under cultivation to the west. A gentle stream trickles by from the north, heading in a southerly direction. To the north, west and south lie meadows dotted with the occasional patch of woodland. The dale is surrounded by tall, forested hills.

Suddenly a Red Dragon appears in the skies above the dale. He is large and angry, setting fire to the eastern hills. The beast flies south and lands.

The following questions will assess your interpretation of how YOU believe D&D should treat Dragons based upon what YOU believe can slay the dragon...


1. Can a rabble of 100 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

2. Can an army 1,000 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

3. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

4. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

5. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming the vast majority are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

6. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

7. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess ranged weapons)?

8. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

9. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

10. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

9. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

11. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

12. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored; most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers; not a single man in the army uses a ranged weapon)?

13. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons); most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

14. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

15. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

16. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

17. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

18. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

19. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (armor for everyone and a wand for the Wizard), one +2 Item (weapons for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff) and two wondrous items)?

20. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

21. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (everyone's secondary weapon, save the Wizard who gets a a wand), one +2 Item (armor for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff), one +3 Item (main weapons for everyone, with the wizard who gets 27 scrolls (3 per spell level); as well as three wondrous items per adventurer)?

[Silverbit]

Good question.
(All below is my view of dragons, which tends to the Tolkein/Norse as opposed to normal dnd; dragons can't cast spells, but they are very charming and well-nigh invulnerable. YMMV.)
For the troops: 6 and 7 have a slight chance, but with massive losses. 8 has a good chance of defeating the dragon. 12 are going to get massacred, 13 can probably win the day. (Ranged weapons rank above magic items in importance, but magic items are still very important.)
For the adventurers: Below 17, TPK without a chance. 17 maybe; 19 certainly. For such a small force, magic items are a requirement.

[Raineh Daze]

1. Can a rabble of 100 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

No. They just don't have any combat ability or decent weapons; they won't even scratch the thing.

2. Can an army 1,000 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

See above.

3. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

They might scratch it. Mostly, they'd be walking into a blender if they tried to attack.

]4. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

Only a very young one. The problem is, see, that most dragons are just too tough for them to even hurt.

5. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming the vast majority are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

See the above two.

6. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

Nothing changes from #4.

7. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess ranged weapons)?

Now we're getting somewhere. This is more likely to work, though the lack of ranged weapons could be a terrible flaw. Also, the older dragons are more likely to screw them over.

8. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

These are weird knights. They'll have more success than the above.

Horses are still just dinner, though.

9. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

Again, there'll be a point where the dragons are just shrugging off their attacks because they're not powerful enough.

10. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

See above.

9. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

See above. You are never going to destroy a tank by poking it with a butter-knife.

11. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Again. Maybe, if you're running things more fairly, there's a weak-point that could be taken out by a single, lone peasant, too... but that's not game mechanics.

12. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored; most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers; not a single man in the army uses a ranged weapon)?

Unless the knights lead the charge, I think they'd do worse than before because they're climbing over a mountain of bodies.

13. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons); most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Nothing has changed from earlier 'shoot the dragon' attempts.

14. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Young one? Probably. Adults and above? Minced adventuring party.

15. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

Eh, not really going to make much of a change, they're still fragile as all get-out even if they can do more damage.

16. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Better. But still likely to die horribly to the adults, with the only guy able to hurt them being squishy and easily targeted by a flying magic-breath-spewing reptile.

17. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

Ah, now they're going to be killing some of the tougher dragons... you know, if they fight sensibly. But hey, the oldest and strongest are still wondering how much damage they can do.

18. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

19. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (armor for everyone and a wand for the Wizard), one +2 Item (weapons for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff) and two wondrous items)?

By this point, magic gear or not shouldn't make a huge difference, and they can take a good shot at killing most dragons and the few older, more alarming specimens. The gear [i]will[i] certainly help at killing the thing in a reasonable timespan.

You're being mean to the non-wizards, though, and not letting them have anything interesting.

20. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

21. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (everyone's secondary weapon, save the Wizard who gets a a wand), one +2 Item (armor for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff), one +3 Item (main weapons for everyone, with the wizard who gets 27 scrolls (3 per spell level); as well as three wondrous items per adventurer)?

Yes to both cases, and the second bunch shouldn't have that much trouble with much below the oldest, strongest dragons.

They should each be able to individually take out most dragons, screw having a team, without relying on luck, and possibly the ancient ones. They're damn mythological heroes by this point; dragons' saving grace is they're just as potent.

[BayardSPSR]

For me, I'm perfectly happy with a very clever peasant being able to figure out a way to win against a dragon. Say a low-level something, to be fair; it would take a lot of effort and exceptional circumstances to pull it off, but it should be possible.

It should take a hero of the highest caliber to face a dragon head-on - and even then, the dragon should have a very good chance of winning.

No number of knights or peasants should be able to accomplish either of these without someone with extreme wits or ability helping them.

For these options, let's say #14 should have a chance IF they pull off some kind of brilliant strategy AND they're lucky. No chance head-to-head, though. It should take #18 to have a reasonable chance with a high probability of casualties, and #21 should have the odds in their favor - but still not without risk.

Of course, dragons are only half the game. How should any of these groups measure up against dungeons? Should successive waves of peasants be able to clear the Tomb of Horrors?

[Flickerdart]

With enough people you could just throw loads and loads of (magically reinforced) nets over the thing so it can't move. But you'd need a lot of people, and a lot of nets, and it will probably run away once it sees what's happening.

[Water_Bear]

With regards to the "How Many Soldiers to Defeat a Dragon" question, I feel like there are some off assumptions in there.

First, obviously, going in without ranged weapons is suicide. Dragons are the kings of the circle-strafe; the only time they shouldn't be flying is within their own lairs. So about half of those groups automatically lose.

Secondly, a 1st level Fighter is (supposed to be) a Knight or equivalent professional soldier in every edition I've played, and, at least in a historical sense, Knights are Men-at-Arms. Either way, no-one without a PC class level should be killing a Dragon whether they're 0th level or have an NPC class.

Third, Dragon's aren't made of wood; chipping away at them with non-magical weapons shouldn't even be possible. Either you need to find a chink in their armor Bard-the-bowman style (AKA giving them sky-high AC) or make them essentially immune to mundane weapons (either with an old-school immunity or 3e/4e DR). Simple numbers are never going to win out against a Dragon because anyone who can hurt them is already in the league to be a Dragonslayer themselves.

Finally, Dragons come in different age categories for a reason; because there needs to be a logical reason why you can fight Dragons from 1st to 36th levels and not feel like you're treading water. The classical D&D Dragon is a fairly elegant rebuttal of the entire concept of Bounded Accuracy because it shows how trivially easy it is to keep iconic monsters relevant while not making Conan fear for his life against Giant Rats.

[Knaight]

I'd pretty much break this down by size. Looking at the D&D size categories:

1) Small/Tiny - These should still be dangerous, but a lucky peasant killing them is fine by me. A capable warrior (level 6 or so) killing one unarmed is also fine by me.

2) Medium - These should be significantly more dangerous. If ground bound, they should be nearly immune to conventional weaponry wielded by average strength people, but enough skill, strength, or weapon quality should get past this. If flying I'm fine with them being vulnerable, but hitting them in the air should take either a lot of people firing in concert or a very talented archer, with ambushing them on the ground being more reasonable.

3) Large - More or less as medium, but even the flying ones should probably take either an exceptional archer or a lot of heavier weapons (e.g. javelins), and the small ones should probably be basically immune to non-magical weapons, with a critical hit exception.

4) Huge - These are where the dragons that wipe out towns start, with land bound ones being completely immune to everything short of siege weapons with the exception of the strongest critical hits.

5) Bigger than Huge - At this point, immunity to basically everything is fine by me, with hard to access vulnerabilities that essentially require highly capable warriors.

At no point should magic weapons be needed, and at all points there should be pretty solid resistance to spells, just as there is for weapons. However, magic weapons should probably make life a lot easier.

As for mechanics: What I would like to see is some sort of tiered AC system, where AC increases dramatically for dragons at flight. For a large or huge dragon at flight AC 15 or so could be a pretty standard baseline, with something like DR 20, where AC 20 drops it to DR 10, and AC 25 drops it to DR 5. A generic peasant with a bow who crits could potientially do damage, but odds aren't good. A high level fighter could easily have +8 to attack on their own (+5 from standard attacks, +3 from ability), and thus hit AC 20 often and AC 25 with some frequency, thus throwing decent damage around. With something granting advantage, or magic weapons, or whatever that gets yet more likely. Then, all of these drop by about 10 when it comes to dragons that aren't flying.

[Raineh Daze]

*Snip*

To this entire post: what. No, seriously, you are basing the threat that an enemy should pose entirely upon it's size. The first major rebuttal that comes to mind is a Demilich. It is a single body part. It would also mop the floor with most things.

[noparlpf]

To this entire post: what. No, seriously, you are basing the threat that an enemy should pose entirely upon it's size. The first major rebuttal that comes to mind is a Demilich. It is a single body part. It would also mop the floor with most things.

Uh, we were talking dragons, I thought. That post makes plenty of sense if we're still talking dragons.

[Raineh Daze]

Uh, we were talking dragons, I thought. That post makes plenty of sense if we're still talking dragons.

Oh, talking dragons?

A peasant is still dead meat, even to a newborn. Peasant vs Wyrmling = Wyrmling Dinner-time.

[Scow2]

How powerful should Dragons be?

In your minds imagine the way you feel D&D should be. Then imagine yourself standing upon the rolling grassy hills in a serene dale. It's almost noon, without a cloud in sight. The summer heat hasn't quite arrived yet and a gentle breeze blows in from the north-west. A small castle over looks a large area of land under cultivation to the west. A gentle stream trickles by from the north, heading in a southerly direction. To the north, west and south lie meadows dotted with the occasional patch of woodland. The dale is surrounded by tall, forested hills.

Suddenly a Red Dragon appears in the skies above the dale. He is large and angry, setting fire to the eastern hills. The beast flies south and lands.

The following questions will assess your interpretation of how YOU believe D&D should treat Dragons based upon what YOU believe can slay the dragon...


1. Can a rabble of 100 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

No. There aren't enough of them to use their numbers to their advantage, and most would not stand their ground against it.

There's one exception: If there's a large number of callow farmboy youth in this rabble, and the Dragon kills their parents before them - then it's dealing with a bunch of guys field-promoted to Adventurers.

2. Can an army 1,000 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

Most likely not. Assuming they have enough motivation to fight the dragon to stick around even after deciding they're not scared of it, they'll still have a tough time. However, if the dragon just decides to land and let them attack it, the dragon deserves to die horribly. They're tough, but they're NOT invincible.

3. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

~ 30% chance of non-dragon victory, especially if they're armed with polearms, remain mobile, and try to use a better strategy than "Stand in a clump and try to mob it when it lands". I feel that although a dragon should be able to fly indefinitely for travel, it shouldn't be able to just fly around indefinitely while strafing the ground with its breath weapon. There should probably be some sort of mechanic to force a dragon to land a few rounds after using its breath weapon. The battle WILL have heavy losses though.

4. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)? About 40% chance of victory. More if there is a PC involved behind organizing the anti-dragon force. However, there will still be horrific losses even in the case of victory.

5. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming the vast majority are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

It's a MUCH tougher fight for the dragon. Probably 70% chance of nondragon victory. He'll be forced to resort to slowly whittling them down, scaring them away, and forcing a route through intimidation more than his actual combat prowess.

6. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

Poor dragon. Assuming the army has the wits about it to stand and fight, 95% chance of nondragon victory. However, people are irrational, and the Dragon's terrifying presence can still force them all to retreat.

7. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess ranged weapons)?

Now we're dealing with knights, who are generally more competant than the average adventurer. They also have mounts, which allow them to scatter and regroup swiftly to mitigate the breath weapon, and decend on it quickly if it lands, skewering it on their lances. Given that they're knights, there should be at least a small number of outright Paladins among them, with the rest being Fighters and even Rangers. There's also a chance of Pegasai chargers. At this point, give that the Dragon's on the offensive, the Knights are likely to lose - A few lance-charges should be able to take the dragon down if it lands, but it's likely to kill half of them in its initial firebreath passes if they don't scatter BEFORE they realize what's going on. The dragon should be able to win this encounter, but suffer serious injury if it didn't plan its attack right. Of course, it's highly possible any one of these knights can kill the dragon on its own.

8. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

There's a good chance these knights are Elves now. The low number still puts the advantage firmly in the side with the number, but they have more tricks to disrupt 'standard dragon tactics', and force it to fight more intelligently.

9. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

Yes, but they'd suffer some casualties.

10. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Poor dragon doesn't stand a chance in any straight-up fight, but he might kill a large number of them.

9. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

Poor dragon doesn't stand a chance, especially if any of those Chargers are pegasai.

11. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

"Dragon, you've come to the wrong neighborhood." This is like the grandest force ever seen. I doubt even a Titan could take this mess out.

12. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored; most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers; not a single man in the army uses a ranged weapon)?

The firepower and number of meatshields presented by this army could easily defeat the dragon even without their ranged weapons, especially if they fight intelligently and with organization. However, they're also much more vulnerable to cascading morale failure, and the sheer number of friendly footmen greatly reduces the mobility options of the knights. The dragon would not be able to brute-force the army, and instead have to use its intimidation, breath weapon, unparalleled mobility and speed, toughness, discretion and large number of natural weapons to, and keep the army off-balance and on the defensive. Large forces have high inertia.

13. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons); most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

This dragon has to use more care than above, because its mobility is not as great of an advantage. However, it still has herd-hitting attacks and a terrifying presence that could completely demoralize and route the enemy force, despite actually being outmatched. However, due to so many knights, the odds are VERY slim of this working.

14. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Probably not. But, if they're PCs, it's highly possible they'd come up with a plan so crazy, or roll stupidly well, and spawn another post in the "Things I am no longer allowed to do" thread.

15. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

Dragon clearly has the advantage, but, again, if we're dealing with PCs there's a chance they can get an underdog victory. But even victory would still be a Near-TPK.

16. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

The advantage is too the Dragon, but its possible for the PCs to beat the odds without resorting to outrageous Player-Character shenanigans.

17. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

50/50 matchup. Dragon might clobber the adventurers, or the Adventurers will scrape a victory at the cost of almost all else (Including likely two or three of their number)

18. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

The advantage is with the Adventurers, but there's a high risk it will be an Almost-TPK.

19. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (armor for everyone and a wand for the Wizard), one +2 Item (weapons for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff) and two wondrous items)?

It would be a tough, epic fight, but the advantage goes to the Adventurers.

20. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

It would be a tough fight, but it's nothing they shouldn't be able to handle at this level.

21. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (everyone's secondary weapon, save the Wizard who gets a a wand), one +2 Item (armor for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff), one +3 Item (main weapons for everyone, with the wizard who gets 27 scrolls (3 per spell level); as well as three wondrous items per adventurer)?

This fight SHOULD be pretty easy - a bit of a challenge, but nothing they can't handle. However, if they're PCs, there's a high chance of them doing something completely stupid and suicidal, and thus the dragon wins with another entry in the "TPKs I get blamed for" thread.


The principals I work on are "Large masses have high inertia. If they gain the advantage, it's hard to take it away. But, a singular, strong force can hit them hard and fast enough to keep them from gaining that advantage" "Dragons are tough, but not invincible. Their defenses are difficulty to land a solid hit, and the ability to take those hits. They aren't immune to any sort of damage, but they can certainly seem to be (Nobody notices -1 HP out of an excess of 200). " "Anyone can be a hero. The more people you have on a task, the more likely one of them thinks about doing something crazy enough to work." and "Morale failures cascade - Even if you're not afraid of the dragon itself, you might be afraid of trying to take it without the help of those who couldn't stand before it... or you might be afraid of being trampled by those who's morale has already broken."

None of these situations have victory for either side as a guarantee, because there are FAR too many variables in play.

If I were to "Fix" 5e's dragons, I'd force them to land after every 2 or 3 breath weapon attack attempts, and give them ACs ranging from 18 (For weak dragons) to 25 (Off the RNG for most people, but still capable of being hit semiregularly by a high-level character), with an average of 22.

[Raineh Daze]

"Dragon, you've come to the wrong neighborhood." This is like the grandest force ever seen. I doubt even a Titan could take this mess out.

Agincourt. The French had over 10,000 knights.

They still lost, but hey.

Seriously, for them to be a threat to anything much, you shouldn't be able to toss less than an army at a dragon and be expected to obtain victory.

[Knaight]

Oh, talking dragons?

A peasant is still dead meat, even to a newborn. Peasant vs Wyrmling = Wyrmling Dinner-time.

This would be the point of contention. I'd be fine with a peasant having a decent chance in close combat, or even if they are exchanging thown weapons or breath weapons, with the dragons getting much more dangerous as they get larger.

[Raineh Daze]

This would be the point of contention. I'd be fine with a peasant having a decent chance in close combat, or even if they are exchanging thown weapons or breath weapons, with the dragons getting much more dangerous as they get larger.

It's someone with a makeshift weapon, no training, no armour, no relevant skills, against a predator born with more durability than an adult human, scales, flight, and a magical breath weapon. Oh, and of the evil types, all but one are born with intelligence in the 8-10 range (or at least, they were in 3.5).

If it's a newborn Red Dragon, they're most definitely screwed because those things are born Medium sized.

[Water_Bear]

I'd be fine with a peasant having a decent chance in close combat, or even if they are exchanging thown weapons or breath weapons, with the dragons getting much more dangerous as they get larger.

But that means that a Wyrmling is less threatening than a trained attack dog. Even criminals with guns have a pretty tough time of it fighting an attack dog, and they're not even mythical beasts.

[Scow2]

Agincourt. The French had over 10,000 knights.

They still lost, but hey.

Seriously, for them to be a threat to anything much, you shouldn't be able to toss less than an army at a dragon and be expected to obtain victory.

The french lost against a bunch of English Longbowmen (Really strong guys with arrows that killed everything at range, and huge mallets that broke anything dumb enough to get in melee with them), and on a field where their horses were more of a detriment than a boon. Again - Superior forces can be wrecked by stupid strategy. An English Longbowman is just as good as any knight.

And your assertion that anything less than an army can't beat a dragon flies in the face of so much fantasy where a lone hero can defeat the beast - even the original source material. And, that lone hero doesn't need to be much more than a cut above the rest.

And tossing an army at a dragon isn't something that should work, because a dragon would KNOW when it's outmatched by something, and can retreat and harry an enemy without subjecting itself to counterattacks. It is still a big, intimidating beast capable of matching any squad, and can thrash an army with its mobility, extreme toughness (High HP and AC, not damage immunity), formation-breaking attacks, keen intelligence, and magical potency. Armies are not optimal against dragons because the Dragon can usually run away faster than the army can pursue it - and if an army tries to assault its lair, they have to deal with militarized, mobilized kobolds. A small strikeforce is FAR more optimal for facing down a dragon, which is smart enough to know to use the bulk and numbers of its enemies against them.

[Felhammer]

To me a Dragon should be a serious threat to Kingdoms. They are forces of nature that require the bravest men and women to slay. An army of peasants cannot hope to defeat a Dragon. An army of solider/Men-At-Arms are no match for a Dragon. An army of Knights with Ranged Weapons would have a slim chance of slaying a Dragon (10/90). A mixed force army would prove a challenge to the Dragon (with the chaff serving as distractions and meat shields) but the odds still favor of the Dragon by a significant margin (20/80) (artillery would definitely aid the army but would be quickly destroyed by the Dragon, for obvious reasons). A band of 5th level PCs with Magic Weapons would fair no better than the peasants. 10th level characters with Magic items stand a better chance but it would still be a dire proposition (10/90). 15th level PC's would have a decent chance of beating the average Dragon (50/50). 20th Level PCs would be able to slay the average Dragon with a fair bit of difficulty (70/30) and be able to stand toe to toe with the oldest Dragons (50/50 shot at best).

[Craft (Cheese)]

I think this question also depends a lot on the setting in question: To speak just of my own games, in one setting I've run dragons are about as common as wolves or bears: Dangerous to a common person wandering alone in the woods but no threat at all to a skilled hunter, and commonly kept as trophies. In another setting I've run, dragons are so ridiculously powerful that every time a wyrmling is born, it literally devours an entire world within minutes after it hatches. Both of these settings could have been done in D&D.

[Raineh Daze]

The french lost against a bunch of English Longbowmen (Really strong guys with arrows that killed everything at range, and huge mallets that broke anything dumb enough to get in melee with them), and on a field where their horses were more of a detriment than a boon. Again - Superior forces can be wrecked by stupid strategy. An English Longbowman is just as good as any knight.

From what I recall, they got bogged down by mud and the longbowmen basically went around stabbing the French in the face.

Anyway, the point here was that you said a thousand knights is an amazing force. Not really. Certainly shouldn't be challenging divinity.

And your assertion that anything less than an army can't beat a dragon flies in the face of so much fantasy where a lone hero can defeat the beast - even the original source material. And, that lone hero doesn't need to be much more than a cut above the rest.

Eh, not really. It seems to be that if you throw an army against a dragon, it's mincemeat. Throw one guy of unusual talent, much more likely to succeed. Levels are hardly a linear thing--no number of level 1 peasants is going to take out a dragon; they just don't have the abilities. A tenth level character is worth far more than ten peasants. And twenty kobolds aren't equivalent to a literal demigod.

So, if you want dragonslaying? You find someone exceptional, or a group of them. You don't rely on sheer numbers.

And tossing an army at a dragon isn't something that should work, because a dragon would KNOW when it's outmatched by something, and can retreat and harry an enemy without subjecting itself to counterattacks. It is still a big, intimidating beast capable of matching any squad, and can thrash an army with its mobility, extreme toughness (High HP and AC, not damage immunity), formation-breaking attacks, keen intelligence, and magical potency. Armies are not optimal against dragons because the Dragon can usually run away faster than the army can pursue it - and if an army tries to assault its lair, they have to deal with militarized, mobilized kobolds. A small strikeforce is FAR more optimal for facing down a dragon, which is smart enough to know to use the bulk and numbers of its enemies against them.

And the small strikeforce, if not of exceptional characters, would be too weak to succeed. So you choose the army instead. And they might succeed, but they're far more likely to fail unless you were lucky enough to be attacked by a young white dragon.

[Scow2]

From what I recall, they got bogged down by mud and the longbowmen basically went around stabbing the French in the face.

Anyway, the point here was that you said a thousand knights is an amazing force. Not really. Certainly shouldn't be challenging divinity.

Fortunately, dragons AREN'T divine in any way, shape, or form. They're just big, scary lizards capable of scaring an entire town or city not through brute strength, but a combination of their strength, intelligence, and arcane might.

Eh, not really. It seems to be that if you throw an army against a dragon, it's mincemeat. Throw one guy of unusual talent, much more likely to succeed. Levels are hardly a linear thing--no number of level 1 peasants is going to take out a dragon; they just don't have the abilities. A tenth level character is worth far more than ten peasants. And twenty kobolds aren't equivalent to a literal demigod.

So, if you want dragonslaying? You find someone exceptional, or a group of them. You don't rely on sheer numbers.

And the small strikeforce, if not of exceptional characters, would be too weak to succeed. So you choose the army instead. And they might succeed, but they're far more likely to fail unless you were lucky enough to be attacked by a young white dragon.

The reason the Dragon is unassailable to an army isn't because it has Tarrasque-style toughness, though. It's because it's smart and versatile enough to clobber an army almost regardless of how skilled it is. An army that marches on a dragon will not face a foe that simply sits in the middle of them laughing at their weapons - those weapons are still a threat in those large numbers. What they end up fighting is a flying, giant foe that doesn't let them land a solid hit on it, that fights around the fringes of the battlefield (Or plops itself in the center to momentarily destroy their coordination, send them panicking, and disrupt their formations, then gets out before they can recover). It also uses its firebreath to where it will do the most damage to both troop numbers AND morale. Not being scared of the big lizard flying around is one thing. Not being scared of the big lizard that just scared everyone around you and sent them trying to trample you is another. As is not being scared of the great big lizard that just sent your own allies trampling you and is now eating the guy you were just playing poker with the other night... while breathing a huge cone of fire incinerating your best friends since boot camp. The dragon has "Shock and Awe" at its primary advantage, even if it actually lacks the durability in a fight it doesn't use such a strategy.

On the subjects of "Knights shouldn't be able to kill Dragons"... sorry, but Dragon-slaying is what knights do. It's part of the job description. Real-world knights just tend to not be as awesome as Fantasy Knights are. Part of the Prerequisites to being a Knight are "Be a hero of some sort" first. They are the military elite, and are superior to most Adventurers until at least the mid levels.

[lesser_minion]

It's someone with a makeshift weapon, no training, no armour, no relevant skills, against a predator born with more durability than an adult human, scales, flight, and a magical breath weapon. Oh, and of the evil types, all but one are born with intelligence in the 8-10 range (or at least, they were in 3.5).

Why should scales make a difference? The whole "dragon scales are the hardest things EVAR!!!!" thing is barely sensible for the biggest and oldest dragons, and we're talking about one that's barely hatched.

And indeed, how are these things "born with more durability than an adult human"? They're no bigger, and their biology isn't that bizarre. In 3rd edition, they have more and better hit dice, but how is that an exception to the principle that most D&D rules and statistics don't imply anything about the setting that isn't utter bollocks, even when they're supposed to?

[Amidus Drexel]

How powerful should Dragons be?

Good question; I've tried to answer it as thoroughly as possible.

Note: I use age/size categories as general terms; I know they're (traditionally, anyway) different for different varieties of dragons.

Spoilered for length:

Spoiler

Show

1. Can a rabble of 100 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

Wyrmling (tiny): Likely, although there will be significant casualties or total failure if the dragon is smart enough to kite them.
Very Young (small): Maybe. There will be significant casualties, if they even succeed.
Juvenile (medium): Probably not. The dragon will undoubtedly be smart enough to kite them at this age, and the ones that have ranged attacks will probably miss.
Adult (large): No. The dragon could mop them up in melee and maybe take a few scratches.
Mature Adult (Huge): Definitely not. The peasants couldn't hurt the dragon at all.
Old (Gargantuan): Barring divine intervention, nothing will save these peasants.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

2. Can an army 1,000 Peasants slay the Dragon (assuming there are very few archers and most peasants are wielding the most basic of weapons (clubs, Pitchforks, etc.) and minimal armor (some leather at best))?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, unless the dragon is incredibly lucky. Again, there will be significant casualties if the dragon is smart enough to kite them.
Very Young (small): Likely, although they'll take some reasonable damage if the dragon kites them.
Juvenile (medium): Maybe. If the peasants win, it'll be from overwhelming the dragon. The dragon might win if it kited them. (and it's old enough that it should). There will be heavy casualties.
Adult (large): Only if the dragon is incredibly unlucky. The dragon will still take some damage (from sheer numbers) if it tries to mop them up in melee, but it'll win. The dragon takes minimal damage if it kites them.
Mature Adult (Huge): Definitely not. The peasants couldn't hurt the dragon at all. An infinite number of similarly-equipped peasants couldn't affect it.
Old (Gargantuan): Barring divine intervention, nothing will save these peasants.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

3. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Maybe. If the dragon is smart enough to kite them, it wins hands down. If it tries to fight them in melee, it doesn't stand a chance. Very swingy.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Probably not. The dragon is smart enough to kite them by this point, and they have no ranged weapons. They might stand a chance if it tries to fight them in melee.
Adult (large): Same as above.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The dragon could wipe the floor with them, and probably kill them in two or three rounds with minimal or no damage whatsoever.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these militiamen.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

4. Can a force of 100 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, and the dragon should run if it wants to live. Minimal casualties.
Very Young (small): Same as above, with slightly higher casualties.
Juvenile (medium): Likely, although there will be reasonably heavy casualties, as the dragon will be smart enough to kite them.
Adult (large): Probably not. The dragon will take some damage, but it's got a very good chance of winning up close or at range.
Mature Adult (Huge): No, although the dragon may take some minimal damage. It could wipe the floor with them easily.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these militiamen.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

5. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming the vast majority are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored but no ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Maybe. If the dragon is smart enough to kite them, it wins hands down. If it tries to fight them in melee, it doesn't stand a chance. Very swingy.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Probably not. The dragon will take significant damage if it tries to fight them in melee (and maybe even lose), but will slaughter them at range.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The dragon could wipe the floor with them, and will take minimal damage
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these militiamen.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

6. Can an army 1,000 Men-At-Arms slay the Dragon (assuming most are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, and the dragon should run if it wants to live. Minimal casualties.
Very Young (small): Same as above, with slightly higher casualties.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, with slightly higher casualties.
Adult (large): Probably not. The dragon will take some damage, but it's got a very good chance of winning at range, and it's definitely smart enough to kite them.
Mature Adult (Huge): No, although the dragon may take some minimal damage. It could wipe the floor with them, although not all at once.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these militiamen.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

7. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Maybe. If the dragon is smart enough to kite them, it wins hands down (although it will take a long time). If it tries to fight them in melee, it doesn't stand a chance. Very swingy.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Probably not. The dragon will take significant damage if it tries to fight them in melee (and has a decent chance of losing), but will slaughter them at range.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The dragon might take some damage in melee, but they are dead meat. It wins in ten rounds, tops.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might scratch it if it ever lands.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

8. Can a band of 10 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, and the dragon should run if it wants to live. The knights will barely take any damage from it.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, although it might kill one or two if it's lucky.
Adult (large): Likely. The dragon has a decent chance of losing if it tries to fight in melee, but it's got a very good chance of winning at range, and it's definitely smart enough to kite them.
Mature Adult (Huge): No, although the dragon may take some minimal damage. It could wipe the floor with them.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might scratch it.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

9. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Maybe. If the dragon is smart enough to kite them, it wins hands down (although it will take a very long time). If it tries to fight them in melee, it doesn't stand a chance. Very swingy.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Maybe. The dragon will take significant damage if it tries to fight them in melee (and will probably lose), but will slaughter them at range.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The dragon might take some damage in melee, but they are dead meat.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might scratch it if it ever lands.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

10. Can a force of 100 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, and the dragon should run if it wants to live. The knights will barely take any damage from it.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, although it might kill one or two if it's lucky.
Adult (large): Likely. The dragon will lose if it tries to fight in melee, but it's got a decent chance of winning at range, and it's definitely smart enough to kite them.
Mature Adult (Huge): No, although the dragon will take some damage. It could still wipe the floor with them.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might scratch it.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

9. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, however, none possess any ranged weapons)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Maybe. If the dragon is smart enough to kite them, it wins hands down (although it will take a very long time). If it tries to fight them in melee, it doesn't stand a chance. Very swingy.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Same as above.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The dragon will take some damage in melee, but they are dead meat.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might scratch it if it ever lands.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

11. Can a force of 1,000 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming most are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, and the dragon will be lucky if it can run away. It probably can't reliably damage the army at all.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Yes, and the dragon should run it it wants to live, although it might kill one or two if it's lucky.
Adult (large): Likely. The dragon will lose if it tries to fight in melee, and will probably be overwhelmed at range. It could win, if it got lucky.
Mature Adult (Huge): Probably not, although the dragon will take some damage. The knights are numerous enough that they could overwhelm the dragon, though.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might deal some minimal damage to it.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

12. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored; most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers; not a single man in the army uses a ranged weapon)?

The peasants will die very quickly in all of these scenarios, by the way.

Wyrmling (tiny): Maybe. If the dragon is smart enough to kite them, it wins hands down (although it will take a very long time). If it tries to fight them in melee, it doesn't stand a chance. Very swingy.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Maybe. The dragon will take significant damage if it tries to fight them in melee (and has a decent chance of losing), but will slaughter them at range.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The dragon might take some damage in melee, but they are dead meat. The peasants and militiamen can't hurt it.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save the army. They might scratch it if it ever lands.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

13. Can an army of 500 Peasants, 450 Men-At-Arms and 50 Knights slay the Dragon (assuming the peasants only wield the most basic of weapons (clubs, pitchforks, etc.) and and minimal armor (some leather at best); most of the Men-At-Arms are 1st-3rd level (with just 1% being 5th level), decently armed and armored with half being well trained with and possessing ranged weapons); most of the Knights are 5th-7th level (with just 1% being 9th level), very well armed and armored (half possessing either +1 Armor or a +1 Weapons), all of whom stride into battle atop mighty chargers, half of whom are trained to use (and possess) Long Bows)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, and the dragon will be lucky if it can run away. It probably can't reliably damage the army at all.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Yes, and the dragon should run it it wants to live, although it could still slaughter the peasants.
Adult (large): Maybe. The dragon has a decent chance of losing if it tries to fight in melee, and will take some significant damage at range.
Mature Adult (Huge): No, although the dragon will take some damage. The peasants and the militiamen can't hurt it.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save these knights. They might deal some minimal damage to it.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

14. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes, although it might get lucky and kill one of the party.
Very Young (small): Same as above, but might kill a few of them.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, but might kill them all.
Adult (large): Probably not. The fighter and wizard are the only ones that could hurt it, and it will slaughter them at range. The party only stands a chance in melee, and it's not a very good one.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The party is dead.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save the party.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

15. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 5th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes.
Very Young (small): Same as above, but might kill a one of them if it gets lucky.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, but might kill a few of them.
Adult (large): Probably not. It will slaughter them at range, but the party technically stands a chance in melee.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The party is dead. They might scratch it.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save the party.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

16. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes; the dragon doesn't stand a chance. It'll be lucky if it can run away.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, but might kill one if it's lucky.
Adult (large): Likely. The fighter and casters are the only ones that could reliably hurt it, and it will slaughter them at range. The party stands a chance in melee, but it's not particularly good.
Mature Adult (Huge): No. The party is dead. Only the casters stand a chance of hurting it at all.
Old (Gargantuan): Divine intervention is the only thing that will save the party.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

17. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 10th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (Melee weapons for everyone save the Wizard, who gets a Wand)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes; it doesn't stand a chance. It'll be lucky if it can run away.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above, but might kill one if it's lucky.
Adult (large): Likely. This is a fair fight.
Mature Adult (Huge): Probably not. The party could seriously hurt it, but the dragon is still much more powerful.
Old (Gargantuan): No. They could deal some minimal damage to it.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh.

18. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes; the dragon doesn't stand a chance. It'll be lucky if it can run away.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Same as above, but it might kill one if it's lucky.
Mature Adult (Huge): Maybe. The fighter and casters are the only ones that could reliably hurt it. The fight is in the dragon's favor, but not by much.
Old (Gargantuan): No, although the casters could deal some damage to it.
Wyrm (Colossal): Don't make me laugh. The casters might scratch it before they're annihilated.

19. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 15th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (armor for everyone and a wand for the Wizard), one +2 Item (weapons for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff) and two wondrous items)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes; the dragon doesn't stand a chance. It'll be lucky if it can run away.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Same as above, but might kill one if it's lucky.
Mature Adult (Huge): Likely. This is a fair fight.
Old (Gargantuan): Probably not. They could deal some serious damage to it, but the dragon is still far more powerful.
Wyrm (Colossal): No, although they could deal some minimal damage to it.

20. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes; the dragon doesn't stand a chance. It'll be lucky if it can run away.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Same as above.
Mature Adult (Huge): Maybe. The fighter and casters are the only ones that could reliably hurt it. The fight is in the party's favor, but not by much. Someone will die.
Old (Gargantuan): Probably not. The fighter and casters are the only ones that could reliably hurt it, and the fight is heavily in the dragon's favor
Wyrm (Colossal): No. The casters could do some damage to it, but they're still dead.

21. Can a band of the four archetypal Adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard) slay the Dragon (assuming all the Adventurers are 20th level, everyone is kitted out with bog standard non-magical gear save for one +1 Item (everyone's secondary weapon, save the Wizard who gets a a wand), one +2 Item (armor for everyone save the wizard who gets a Staff), one +3 Item (main weapons for everyone, with the wizard who gets 27 scrolls (3 per spell level); as well as three wondrous items per adventurer)?

Wyrmling (tiny): Yes; the dragon doesn't stand a chance. It'll be lucky if it can run away.
Very Young (small): Same as above.
Juvenile (medium): Same as above.
Adult (large): Same as above.
Mature Adult (Huge): Same as above, but might kill one if it's lucky.
Old (Gargantuan): Likely. This is a fair fight.
Wyrm (Colossal): Maybe. The dragon has a serious advantage, but the party is powerful and has a reasonable chance of killing it.

[Alejandro]

A dragon can be as awesome or weak as the GM and players agree to make it. No book will stop anyone.

[Raineh Daze]

Fortunately, dragons AREN'T divine in any way, shape, or form. They're just big, scary lizards capable of scaring an entire town or city not through brute strength, but a combination of their strength, intelligence, and arcane might.

I should make a note to not make jokes based on something you've said, even if that seems like a joke. Scroll up, look at where you said Titan. There. That's it. I did not mean dragons.

The reason the Dragon is unassailable to an army isn't because it has Tarrasque-style toughness, though. It's because it's smart and versatile enough to clobber an army almost regardless of how skilled it is. An army that marches on a dragon will not face a foe that simply sits in the middle of them laughing at their weapons - those weapons are still a threat in those large numbers. What they end up fighting is a flying, giant foe that doesn't let them land a solid hit on it, that fights around the fringes of the battlefield (Or plops itself in the center to momentarily destroy their coordination, send them panicking, and disrupt their formations, then gets out before they can recover). It also uses its firebreath to where it will do the most damage to both troop numbers AND morale. Not being scared of the big lizard flying around is one thing. Not being scared of the big lizard that just scared everyone around you and sent them trying to trample you is another. As is not being scared of the great big lizard that just sent your own allies trampling you and is now eating the guy you were just playing poker with the other night... while breathing a huge cone of fire incinerating your best friends since boot camp. The dragon has "Shock and Awe" at its primary advantage, even if it actually lacks the durability in a fight it doesn't use such a strategy.

Having scales equal or superior to plate armour, a huge natural reach, and sheer size count for something, too. Quite a lot, actually. If you DON'T have any individuals capable of standing up to that, the army is still your best bet.

On the subjects of "Knights shouldn't be able to kill Dragons"... sorry, but Dragon-slaying is what knights do. It's part of the job description. Real-world knights just tend to not be as awesome as Fantasy Knights are. Part of the Prerequisites to being a Knight are "Be a hero of some sort" first. They are the military elite, and are superior to most Adventurers until at least the mid levels.

I want to know sort of knights you think populate most of the world. In an entire kingdom, you might get, say, ten or twenty like that. Yeah, they're heroes. That is separate from being knights. You might get a knightly order like that--but that is a specific group, not a general class.

Yes, the Knights of the Round Table could do it. At least two knights there are dragonslayers on their own (Lancelot and Tristan). Random guy who happens to have been born into nobility? No chance.

I've been assuming general knights, not the sorts that would be mid-to-high levelled adventurers in their own right.

Why should scales make a difference? The whole "dragon scales are the hardest things EVAR!!!!" thing is barely sensible for the biggest and oldest dragons, and we're talking about one that's barely hatched.

And indeed, how are these things "born with more durability than an adult human"? They're no bigger, and their biology isn't that bizarre. In 3rd edition, they have more and better hit dice, but how is that an exception to the principle that most D&D rules and statistics don't imply anything about the setting that isn't utter bollocks, even when they're supposed to?

Err... the scales make a difference because they're tougher than human flesh. It is, in effect, a lightly-armoured warrior against an untrained civilian. The civilian is going to lose.

Their biology is that bizarre. They are giant reptiles that can still somehow fly and have elemental breath attacks, and can trivially simulate human speech despite being entirely ill-suited for that. oh, and shapeshifting. Lots of that.

[Knaight]

A dragon can be as awesome or weak as the GM and players agree to make it. No book will stop anyone.

However, the existence of certain mechanics does make it easier to set them up as wanted. Heavy DR has one effect, high AC another, conditional flying AC yet another, certain movement and range rules yet another, so on and so forth. For instance, if the ranged rules are written in such a way that elevation is a very big deal (say, you get 2 damage dice by default with most weapons, 1 when firing largely upward, and 3 when firing largely downward), it will encourage situations where the dragons are devastating when attacking from above, yet can be taken down pretty easily if you manage to get the high ground when they are landed and fire down on them. If bypassable DR is included it encourages heavy weaponry or highly skilled dragon slayers, if HP is the main defense it encourages groups. So on and so forth.

[Alejandro]

However, the existence of certain mechanics does make it easier to set them up as wanted. Heavy DR has one effect, high AC another, conditional flying AC yet another, certain movement and range rules yet another, so on and so forth. For instance, if the ranged rules are written in such a way that elevation is a very big deal (say, you get 2 damage dice by default with most weapons, 1 when firing largely upward, and 3 when firing largely downward), it will encourage situations where the dragons are devastating when attacking from above, yet can be taken down pretty easily if you manage to get the high ground when they are landed and fire down on them. If bypassable DR is included it encourages heavy weaponry or highly skilled dragon slayers, if HP is the main defense it encourages groups. So on and so forth.

Right. And any GM can make any of those happen, as long as the players agree.

[Flickerdart]

Any GM can rename the entry for "housecat" to "dragon". That's really not the point of the exercise.

[Zombimode]

As should be clear by now, for something like "How powerful should Dragons be?" you will not find a common ground. Peoples opinion on this are just to diverse.