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Thread: Word of Recall

  1. - Top - End - #271
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    I think Porthos has hit the nail on the head here. Half of the arguments I'm seeing (if not more) revolve around the tandem assumptions that prepared casters don't lose to non-casting peasants or lower level casters, that Malack was personally prepared, and that his preparations prioritized around the same parameters they would use if they were playing him. These assumptions are all wrong.

    1) From both a mechanics and story perspective the assumption that casters trump non-casters or lower level casters is bull. The mechanics part of that discussion can be had on another thread, but when I've seen it played out (as another poster has mentioned) it usually comes with no prepared caster spell list, nor the consideration of the possibility that the faster has already expended some spells, and tends rather to be just one poster referencing a sourcebook to list counters to every threat that might be posed. Never is there consideration that the caster just might not have that spell available for one reason or another.

    From a story standpoint, not only does this assumption make for horrible storytelling and boring conflict in which the caster always has the Right answer prepared and ready to cast, but Rich has directly highlighted some of its flaws. There are numerous cases in which Rich has (rightly) shown his willingness to take direct swipes at the notion of "class tiers" or any similar rubbish notions. This has been the case since the comic was in the Dungeon of Dorukan, usually by having the caster hit hard in canonically established weak points. He has also lampshaded those weak points in several instances: in strip 800, V explains a key weakness of wizards, clerics, and druids (sorcs and bards suffer a slightly different but related issue), while strip 216 illustrates what happens when perfect theoretical plans meet an imperfectable reality.

    2) The assumption that Malack must be perfectly prepared is likewise faulty. Magic is a limited resource to begin with, and he is already going in with a low caster level and fewer spell slots than a character of his level-adjusted ECL might be expected to have. This limits his options to begin with (see strip 800 again), and many of his spells have already been spent.

    From a storytelling perspective, it is important that he is not ready. The fight takes on a whole different meaning if Malack is unprepared. There is a very unique character insight we get from the fight as is. It shows that Nale, for all his faults can either rationally deduce or intuit the right time for taking advantage of people: he is a ruthless opportunist, who holds long term goals, but has an ability to take openings where he can find them to enact those goals. It also provides the right momentum to have the scene unfold as it does. A longer scene drawn out with spells and counters stretches out the dialogue, and risks it falling out of Nale's control at points. It also draws more attention to Z and Malack in a scene that is primarily about Nale (I have to assume Rich intended this). This scene is Nale's moment, and playing up the others too much makes it less so, and gives us a different view of Nale than we got; that of a man who backstabs hard, fast, and ruthlessly, leaving his opponent at -7 HP, going on dead. Just ask Elan.

    3) People seriously need to stop assuming that Malack had to have the same priorities as they would have had in his shoes. This assumes a lot of things about the character that we don't know. Rich and Rich alone is qualified to decide what the motives and priorities of his characters are. We can at best guess at them ourselves. All this talk about Malack being a paranoid, survive at all costs character, or about him being a meticulous planner, or some mastermind who covers all the angles are things that have been assumed by us on a limited body of data (and IMO, a wealth of wishful thinking by fans of the character).

    At most we know that Malack is intelligent enough to build in backdoors on spells he realizes directly counter everything he is, and that he does think big and plan for the long term. We know little about how meticulous those long term plans are, or about how much effort he dedicated to low probability contingencies (actually, we may have reason to suspect that this is more Tarquin's gig and that Malack considers it more than neccessary, and highly inefficient: strip 852-854). We also know that Malack seems, from his dialogue, given up on surviving by frame 10 in the most recent strip. Arguably by panel 9, we knew he didn't have [insert Get out of Jail Free Card spell here]. His last act here was not a choice between vengeance and survival. It was a choice between meekly accepting his fate, or dragging his killer down with him. He doesn't suddenly develop a streak of uncharacteristic suicidal hatred for Nale, he realizes he has few options and less time, so he fights back. Seems fairly consistent and IC to me. And I think for the vast majority of the audience all of this made sense, preserved story continuity, and doesn't seem to need all the explanation that the naysayers are demanding (incidentally, anyone that read this strip and felt Malack needed a more epic death "befitting his character" should never touch anything written by George RR Martin; they are bound to tie themselves in knots over what that author does).

    For those arguing that pretty much any cleric with a positive, non-zero int mod must prepare WoR, we're right back to the point about you neither playing Malack nor writing him. Malack's priorities are his own. What I imagine of his logo makes sense to me. What really threatens him as he's prepping spells? Running water? He's in a desert. Staked in his coffin? Best avoided by not needing to GTFO in the first place. Sunlight? PfD prepared twice, with charges in his staff. It is neither unreasonable nor out of character for him to consider his bases covered. His assessment missed a key point that got him fried, but that does not break character or anything. In fact, I think it strengthens Mal's characterization for him to have flaws such as not anticipating everything. What is unreasonable is for readers to declare that they "find his actions out of character" or that they feel he has been improperly portrayed by the author. Ffs, it's someone else's story and someone else's character. The athour knows ths character better than the audience does (despite some perplexing claims made by some posters to the contrary), and is in a far better position to judge what Malack would do in this situation than any of us are.

    Are there ways he might have survived? Probably. But for whatever reason, he as a character didn't prepare himself that way, and there are a number of reasons he might not have that I can think of easily. Would his escape have benefitted him? Yeah, but characters mess up sometimes or get surprised. It's what makes them characters. Would the story have benefitted from him escaping? No, not really. It would have overshadowed characters who are supposed to be meticulous planners (frequently upstaging character strong suits gets bland after a while), would have cheapened Nale's moment in the spotlight, and would have forced a long, convoluted subplot to resolve the Durkula issue, which was Malack's big remaining tie in on the story. It would have been like trying Kubota to further Elan's story. And hey, the guy got a flashier exit than Kubota did.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    The fact that he turned his back on Nale and was caught flat footed proves this. Had he expected betrayal, he never would have allowed Durkon to send the demon into the pit. Clearly he was never expecting an attack. That right there says that Malack is not the tactical genius people are making him out to be. He's a vampire who got lazy off two decades of playing it safe in the background. He underestimates everyone he faces. He got lucky with Durkon. But he clearly didn't think enough of Nale to consider him a threat.
    There seems to be a certain ideologically-driven belief that powerful spellcasters are not allowed to be less than tactical geniuses.

    As I see it, the fight with Durkon should set our expectations. Durkon is competent. Malack is competent. But Malack is used to having the enormous advantage of having successfully hidden his vampire nature. If Durkon happened to have a couple of the right low levels spells on hand to deal with such an opponent, the battle would have gone completely differently -- Durkon would have easily been able to make a fighting retreat with Belkar.

    Stripped of his usual tactical advantage, Malack is not a heavyweight class threat. Nale says outright that Malack got lucky almost killing him before -- while Nale is less than reliable as a source of insight, in this case, his assertion is completely believable.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Its been discussed a lot about how much time malack had to act but what most seem to miss is time to think. Theres some limit to how much game mechanics allow this world to work, and as fast as things happend, there are limits how much malack could figure out. Malack didnt have a hour to sit down and think if any of his spells or abilities could save him somehow. He had, if we are very generous, six seconds to decide on a course of action, maybe less.

    From his rather lethargic reaction to having his weapon stolen, and not recting at all to potentially threatening comments (enemies dieing and the daylight quip) he seems to be elsewhere with his thoughts. For that, going from deep thinking to fight for survival his reaction is pretty good, even if not ideal. He seems to be acting on ingrained reflexes (sunlight damage --> protection spell or find shelter) both of which nale had dealt with. His second reaction is Nale attacks me --> kill him, which is entirely in character for him, and what you would expect from acting more on instinct and reflex than carefull planning.

    Also, he seems to make at least a five foot step whan speaking about shelter, possibly a full move action (which is interrupted by nale hanging on to his cloak) so the whole "only one move or attack action" may not completly apply in any case.

    So: going by not having word of recall or other obvious ways out, its still possible that he could have saved himself somehow. However, he didnt have time to sit around and think about all his options. He had to react to what amounts to a sudden backstabbing/assasination attempt, while being someone who had been in a position of relative security for a long time. By that, i find his reactions neither implausible nor too incompetent.


    From the evidence, it seems vampires here, (or at least Malack here) gets a full round of actions (move + standard) or at least standard + step, otherwise having daylight protection prepared (or not) would be utterly meaningless.
    It also seems the robe helped him somewhat (and he expected to be able to recast the spell from the staff after durkon retrived it, which would be one round minimum. Assuming we dont use my "not thinking" argument above, this expects at least a round followed by a standard action), so possibly a vampire with heavy clothing has a bit more time in the OotS world.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green and Red View Post
    It also seems the robe helped him somewhat (and he expected to be able to recast the spell from the staff after durkon retrived it, which would be one round minimum. Assuming we dont use my "not thinking" argument above, this expects at least a round followed by a standard action), so possibly a vampire with heavy clothing has a bit more time in the OotS world.
    Nah Durkon was supposed to cast it on him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green and Red View Post
    From the evidence, it seems vampires here, (or at least Malack here) gets a full round of actions (move + standard) or at least standard + step, otherwise having daylight protection prepared (or not) would be utterly meaningless.
    Hmm? He could have cast Protection from Daylight, either from memory or from the staff he was carrying, with just a standard action. (Even receiving the staff from Durkon would probably have been free, I would guess.)

    I doubt the cloak really helped; Malack had several exposed bits and was smoking quite a lot even with it on, and when he died, he poofed into ash all at once, not just the exposed parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Nah Durkon was supposed to cast it on him.
    Thats a good cath, somehow i completly missed that possibility... so lets see.
    If its move to staff in one action, standard action to take, move back, and cast spell, it could be in time. But apparently was to far away for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toper View Post
    Hmm? He could have cast Protection from Daylight, either from memory or from the staff he was carrying, with just a standard action. (Even receiving the staff from Durkon would probably have been free, I would guess.)

    I doubt the cloak really helped; Malack had several exposed bits and was smoking quite a lot even with it on, and when he died, he poofed into ash all at once, not just the exposed parts.
    I was more referring to the crowd who go by "only one move or attack action", in which case even having staff and spell prepared wouldnt have helped. But the giant already said he took it as standard or move action.
    However, we see malack try to move away in one panel, even if he stops after a step. Could be just cosmetic though, or a five foot step (need to look up the rules for those).

    Theres a whole thread for the cloak, but we see him burn more when/where its ripped away. Could be cosmetic, could be that it would have saved him a round more. Would be up to the DM, i guess, wether he lets heavy clothing help vampires or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy Cur View Post
    1) From both a mechanics and story perspective the assumption that casters trump non-casters or lower level casters is bull. The mechanics part of that discussion can be had on another thread, but when I've seen it played out (as another poster has mentioned) it usually comes with no prepared caster spell list, nor the consideration of the possibility that the faster has already expended some spells, and tends rather to be just one poster referencing a sourcebook to list counters to every threat that might be posed. Never is there consideration that the caster just might not have that spell available for one reason or another.

    From a story standpoint, not only does this assumption make for horrible storytelling and boring conflict in which the caster always has the Right answer prepared and ready to cast, but Rich has directly highlighted some of its flaws. There are numerous cases in which Rich has (rightly) shown his willingness to take direct swipes at the notion of "class tiers" or any similar rubbish notions. This has been the case since the comic was in the Dungeon of Dorukan, usually by having the caster hit hard in canonically established weak points. He has also lampshaded those weak points in several instances: in strip 800, V explains a key weakness of wizards, clerics, and druids (sorcs and bards suffer a slightly different but related issue), while strip 216 illustrates what happens when perfect theoretical plans meet an imperfectable reality.
    Rich may directly highlight his disagreement with the notion that casters trump non-casters, but he actually plays it very straight in the actual events of the story.

    Vaarsuvius contributed more to the battle of Azure City than the entire rest of the party put together. You can argue that Belkar made a bigger contribution, but only after he acquired an at-will fireball attack. The only reason V fled is because the battle was already lost and invisibility was the one spell he/she had left. Note that in that story, V had an option to escape the battle at hand. In some of the commentary to War and XPs, Rich admits to deliberately separating V from the rest of the party so as to limit V's impact.

    And even with the "characters in the OotS aren't minmaxed" philosophy, V is capable of single-handedly deciding the outcomes of battles while being the worst possible example of wizard design in D&D 3.5. How much more effective would V be than V already is is s/he had access to conjuration and necromancy, or if V had specialized in something other than evocation?

    So we have a badly designed wizard still having a greater impact on the conflicts facing the party, and the author resorting to "thinly veiled Deus Ex Machinas" (V's words, not mine) to limit his/her impact, or enemies better at magic than V is (Xykon, the ancient black dragon) or twinked out to go toe to toe with him/her (Z).

    Rich himself drew attention to the fact that Leeky Windstaff took on half the Order all by his lonesome. Only the cleric in the party was able to match him both physically and magically, even then requiring an Act of Thor to overcome Leeky's protected treants.

    CoDZilla was alive and well when Durkon was able to bitch-slap half the LInear guild with a single spell, crippling three of them and banishing another, forcing Tarquin to order the retreat to save the rest of the Guild. Note that Malack was separated from the Guild for that fight, and when Malack and Durkon threw down, Durkon lost after an epic, multi-comic struggle, and then only after Malack had already defeated Belkar with a single spell.

    So while Rich may say he's poking holes in the notion of a tiered ranking of the various classes in D&D, the actual events of the story play it straight. The spellcasting characters have a tendency to steamroll anyone who's not, and Rich has to take special lengths to isolate and counter their capabilities. Just because you point out in narrative that "it's almost as if the universe is trying to force some form of arbitrary equality between those of us who can reshape matter with our thoughts, and those who cannot," doesn't mean that there are some characters capable of reshaping matter with their thoughts, and others that swing sharp pieces of metal.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    The idea that the gate would be protected by, not an ultra-sophisticated magical charm, but by a simple box made of lead sheeting, was completely outside their thinking process.
    You might say, it required them to think outside the box!

    (I'm sorry, I'll go away now shall I?)

    ps. the fact that this thread is still going on, long after the Giant's contributions, has inspired me to finally get a sig!
    Geez, what is it with that guy and needing to figure out all the fiddly little details?

    I know, right? It's called "Suspension of Disbelief"...
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    Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.
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    *Scans the recent postings*

    I award Scurvy Cur 1 internet for some brilliant analysis. And I award DeliaP a slap in the face with a halibut for that awful, awful pun

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Qarr is a sorcerer, when he shot Blackwing, he was casting scorching ray. It has nothing to do with him being an imp. In fact, the appearance of the rays indicate that he has 8-10 sorcerer levels, so he actually knows at least 1 4th level spell, and it might be dimensional anchor.
    Qarr also cast Charm Monster repeatedly when the fleet was being attacked.

    So he's been known to have AT LEAST one level 4 sorcerer spell for hundreds of strips. He could cast anchor from a wand, or a scroll, or he might well know it as it's a very useful spell if you're routinely dealing with demons and devils.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy Cur View Post
    I think Porthos has hit the nail on the head here. Half of the arguments I'm seeing (if not more) revolve around the tandem assumptions that prepared casters don't lose to non-casting peasants or lower level casters, that Malack was personally prepared, and that his preparations prioritized around the same parameters they would use if they were playing him. These assumptions are all wrong.
    But he spent a round trying flee for shelter at 30 ft per round. No, I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that smart, wealthy, high-level magic users don't do that. The game is crazy at high level and there are just too many easy and/or cheap ways to teleport, switch dimensions, burrow, become intangible, something.

    There's also the issue of how vulnerable he let himself be to sunlight, he didn't have his protection spell on a toe ring, he didn't have it on a scroll or in a potion, he didn't even have a spell he could use for shade. That's weird behavior for a vampire in the desert.

    Rich has told us a ton of times that he doesn't slavishly follow 3e's in-game logic and that's totally cool, but wealth and brains and fabulous magic item access have been established in-comic as some of Tarquin's superpowers (not to mention his 6th sense for drama, which should have at least TINGLED when he let Malak and Nale go without him).

    The comic was still great, and it totally fit's NALE's character. But, yea, my first thought was that Malak died too easy. He died because Nale had a plot-sword on him and because that happened to be the coolest way it could happen.
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    My second thought was that Tarquin saw it coming and wanted Malak out of the picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    But he spent a round trying flee for shelter at 30 ft per round. No, I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that smart, wealthy, high-level magic users don't do that.
    Smart people do dumb things all the time, especially when they are surprised and enraged.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    But he spent a round trying flee for shelter at 30 ft per round. No, I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that smart, wealthy, high-level magic users don't do that. The game is crazy at high level and there are just too many easy and/or cheap ways to teleport, switch dimensions, burrow, become intangible, something.

    There's also the issue of how vulnerable he let himself be to sunlight, he didn't have his protection spell on a toe ring, he didn't have it on a scroll or in a potion, he didn't even have a spell he could use for shade. That's weird behavior for a vampire in the desert.

    Rich has told us a ton of times that he doesn't slavishly follow 3e's in-game logic and that's totally cool, but wealth and brains and fabulous magic item access have been established in-comic as some of Tarquin's superpowers (not to mention his 6th sense for drama, which should have at least TINGLED when he let Malak and Nale go without him).

    The comic was still great, and it totally fit's NALE's character. But, yea, my first thought was that Malak died too easy. He died because Nale had a plot-sword on him and because that happened to be the coolest way it could happen.
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    My second thought was that Tarquin saw it coming and wanted Malak out of the picture.
    The bold is a bit superfluous, seeing as Tarquin wasn't even there to begin with. Malack is not Tarquin; he is not as (genre)savvy (he honestly thought that the Order didn't know each other when they left on the carpet). He was just complacent, nothing more; he thought he was protected enough, between his staff and his relationship with Tarquin keeping Nale from doing anything. It had probably been decades since he'd had a real, do-or-die fight or even been on an adventure that truly challenged him, being a mid-level cleric with +8 LA (that's another thing: he's not a high-level magic user, he's a mid-level magic user with abilities that make him far more dangerous).

    The thing to take away is that between his complacency and supreme confidence in his abilities, he simply felt that he had no need to protect himself further than what he did. Even though hindsight tells us otherwise, that does not detract from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    No, I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that smart, wealthy, high-level magic users don't do that.
    Yes. It is. There is no level of any class which grants the feature "you have grounds to howl at the DM if you ever lose."

    (Theoretical Optimizers. Gah.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    So we have a badly designed wizard still having a greater impact on the conflicts facing the party, and the author resorting to "thinly veiled Deus Ex Machinas" (V's words, not mine) to limit his/her impact
    Without commenting on the rest of the post, I want to point out that the Deus ex Machina in question was the one that saved V's life, not one that prevented him from contributing. A poor example for the claim that Rich writes wizards as overpowered.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-08-03 at 06:38 AM.

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    Rich has told us a ton of times that he doesn't slavishly follow 3e's in-game logic and that's totally cool, but wealth and brains and fabulous magic item access have been established in-comic as some of Tarquin's superpowers (not to mention his 6th sense for drama, which should have at least TINGLED when he let Malak and Nale go without him).
    Who says they didn't?

    Tarquin has already established that he is treacherous and willing to betray those closest to him. How many of his wives died natural deaths? And we've also established that he cares deeply for his own flesh and blood but not at all for anyone else.

    I think Tarquin knew very well that Nale intended to kill Malack and , given the choice between losing his son and losing his friend, chose the latter.

    I think Tarquin deliberately absented himself so that he would neither have to fight Malack for his son nor fight his son for Malack. Instead, he keeps his word to Malack in giving him an opportunity at Nale solo. Thus he keeps the letter of his promise while manipulating the spirit of it for his own ends. That's a very lawful evil thing to do.

    Respectfully,

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    given the choice between losing his son and losing his friend, chose the latter.
    More likely chose to let them sort it out themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    ... but wealth and brains and fabulous magic item access have been established in-comic as some of Tarquin's superpowers ....
    That Tarquin has a "superpower" is proof that his preparations are noteworthy. In-comic, the norm among the competent is to have holes in their preparations. Tarquin would be the exception that proves the rule.

    Malack is not particular brainy in the manner you are alluding to. He is educated. He is competent. The kind of tactical savvy we are talking about here would be out of character, given the larger context of the OotSverse.

    Some D&D players are pre-disposed to believe that spell casters are not allowed be less tactical super geniuses, without it being "unrealistic" or "bad writing". It is an argument very thin on merit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    he didn't have his protection spell on a toe ring,
    I think the rest of the points raised in your post have been exhaustively discussed already, and this is easily fixed, but I am going to point out that Malack doesn't have FEET.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Yes. It is. There is no level of any class which grants the feature "you have grounds to howl at the DM if you ever lose."

    (Theoretical Optimizers. Gah.)
    Okay, so you got me to look back at my Munchkin D20 books, and...wow, there aren't ANY classes in a book of player options SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR MUNCHKINS which give the feature "you have grounds to howl at the DM if you ever lose." So yea, there definitely aren't any such classes in a non-munchkin game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Okay, so you got me to look back at my Munchkin D20 books, and...wow, there aren't ANY classes in a book of player options SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR MUNCHKINS which give the feature "you have grounds to howl at the DM if you ever lose." So yea, there definitely aren't any such classes in a non-munchkin game.
    There is a feat that lets you overrule the DM on a regular basis, assuming you're sleeping with him. Or her.

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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Tarquin and Malak have been good friends and co-conspirators for a really long time, we've seen them sharing resources, they're in the same adventuring party and Tarquin is both the strategist/coordinator and the leader. Yes, I blame Tarquin for the fact that Malak wasn't carrying a couple potions of protection from daylight (or a low level darkness or fog spell, or what's-his'face's shelter, or a 400 gp feather token to make a shade tree, not to mention boots of teleportation or plane-shifting effects or the sorts of general get-out-of-jail spells and item which Tarquin would surely have pressed onto his team regardless of specific deadly weaknesses they may have).

    It's not about high level characters or spellcasters being invincible, nothing general like that, I'm talking about Malak specifically. It's a matter of his resources (material, personal, social). He had so many ways to prevent or resist this that the only way it makes sense is if he (and his friends) didn't see it coming, and that doesn't make sense either.

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    Actually, I still think the real way it makes sense is if Malak was totally used to Tarquin watching his back and optimizing his loot, and then Tarquin hung him out to dry.

  23. - Top - End - #293
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Green and Red View Post
    More likely chose to let them sort it out themselves.
    I agree with this. Tarquin basically said this was a test for Nale, and if there is one thing we can definitely all agree about, it is this: Tarquin is not stupid. I don't think it's a stretch to believe Tarquin knew Nale would try to kill Malack at the first opportunity, so maybe that was or was part of the test.

  24. - Top - End - #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    Rich may directly highlight his disagreement with the notion that casters trump non-casters, but he actually plays it very straight in the actual events of the story.
    Trumping isn't the same as simply being more powerful. Trumping is about surpassing the trumpee automatically or trivially. The idea that casters trump non-casters is the idea that Roy can never beat Xykon, or that Darth Vaarsuvius should have been completely unstoppable, or that Malack should have beaten Nale because Malack mostly has cleric levels and Nale has several "useless" fighter levels.

    Rich recognizes that some classes are more powerful than others, but the story clearly demonstrates that good strategy and cleverness trump power, especially if the wielder of the power is caught off-guard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Trumping isn't the same as simply being more powerful. Trumping is about surpassing the trumpee automatically or trivially. The idea that casters trump non-casters is the idea that Roy can never beat Xykon, or that Darth Vaarsuvius should have been completely unstoppable, or that Malack should have beaten Nale because Malack mostly has cleric levels and Nale has several "useless" fighter levels.

    Rich recognizes that some classes are more powerful than others, but the story clearly demonstrates that good strategy and cleverness trump power, especially if the wielder of the power is caught off-guard.
    Right. And we can see that some people will complain if a spellcaster is ever caught off guard, because that is automatically presumed to be "unrealistic". The very fact that someone is a high level spellcaster completely trumps anything and everything the author ever wrote about that character.

  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Rich recognizes that some classes are more powerful than others, but the story clearly demonstrates that good strategy and cleverness trump power, especially if the wielder of the power is caught off-guard.
    Or rather, that strategy and cleverness are power, and sometimes more useful than arcane/mystical power.
    A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.

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  27. - Top - End - #297
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    I think that strip is the best example of how each character is not omniscient.
    V makes the mistake of not accounting for physical attacks or wards that can break concentration.
    Redcloak fails to alert Xykon to the escape of the prisoner.
    Xykon fails to make sure Ochul is dead before paying attention to V, allowing the phylactary, a target Ochul already attempted to destroy, to be grabbed again.
    Nobody remembers poor Blackwing until he shows up to attempt to save the day.

    Basically, a textbook example of how having all the power doesn't mean you're using it correctly.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Trumping isn't the same as simply being more powerful.
    Exactly.

    For those who do not know the rules of pinochle — I bet most people barely play cards these days — any card in a trump suit, even the lowest, will beat even an ace in any other suit. If trump is spades, then ANY spade will beat ANY card in another suit, irrespective of face value. In D&D terms, "trumps" would mean that any spellcaster, at any time, would always beat a non-spellcaster, regardless of level, preparedness, spell selection, strategy, AC, etc. Clearly, this is not a situation that calls for the metaphor "trump."

    I'm not a bridge player, so I can't tell you how that works. Suits are ranked in power, I think.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Exactly.

    For those who do not know the rules of pinochle — I bet most people barely play cards these days — any card in a trump suit, even the lowest, will beat even an ace in any other suit. If trump is spades, then ANY spade will beat ANY card in another suit, irrespective of face value. In D&D terms, "trumps" would mean that any spellcaster, at any time, would always beat a non-spellcaster, regardless of level, preparedness, spell selection, strategy, AC, etc. Clearly, this is not a situation that calls for the metaphor "trump."
    This exactly.

    Rich folow the general guideline that casters are usually more powerful than non-casters. And higher level casters will usually be more powerful than lower level ones. But he doesn't follow the idea that they ALWAYS win.

    Very few people argue against the first guideline. It's the second one that can ruffle some people's feathers.

    IIRC, Rich actually has commented about the idea that (paraphrasing) casters don't always trump others in all situations as a one his goals in writing this story. If I can find the link, I'll edit it in to this post.
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  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    With regards to Benj's assessment of V's contribution in the battle for Azure City (quoting is devilishly hard on my phone):

    I drew an entirely different message from Rich's telling of V's role in that battle. To me, the takeaway message was that, for all of V's frantic efforts to fix all of the things with magic (banishing the elementals, plugging the hole with a wall of super soldiers, etc., he was unable ultimately to influence the course of events. His super soldiers died, the wall was breached, and V would probably have been taken out by the Death Knight were it not for the Deus Ex Machina of a falling zombie dragon head crushing his adversary. At the end of the day, V's last remaining course of action is to resort to a spell he has probably known since level 3.

    Rich then takes it further by putting V through the emotional and psychological wringer of having his ego try to square his belief in the ultimate supremacy of magic (perhaps standing in for the common D&Der belief in caster class supremacy?) with the fact that at the end of the day, he might as well have been a 3rd level wizard, for all the impact he had on the course of events, and that the other 10 wizard levels he had managed to do a fat lot of nothing for the Azurites.

    I would agree that Rich does play it straight; I just think that his straight involves a rules-faithful assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of casting classes. When they're prepared for the challenges they face and fresh on spells, they are quite strong. When they are unprepared, have expended a lot of their resources (Malack, strip 906), where the possible threats are too varied to counter all of them at once (Z, strip 800), or are in a situation where their available spell slots simply get overwhelmed by the challenges (V, Azure City Battle), they become less and less dominant.

    This is the balancing element that most every "caster versus melee/ranged" argument doesn't account for. A skilled DM will never let a major plot arc adventure progress without exhausting the casters to some degree. If a DM lets a primary caster always have every resource at their disposal for every major encounter, they're doing it wrong (full disclosure: during my first few passes at DMing, I was guilty of this big time. My players could rest for spells more or less whenever they weren't in immediate danger, there was no time pressure, nothing. Consequently, most encounters would involve the party wizard dropping high level spell slots on things until they died.). Heck, Rich even touches on this phenomenon indirectly in strip 145, which contrasts nicely with the examples of casters who have exhausted their spells mentioned above.

    tl;dr version: I agree that Rich plays it straight by the rules (within reason), and I admire how well he does it. I just think he (and I) have a different notion of what the D&D rules envelope allows than you do, and he has set up his story to allow all classes to shine while operating inside that envelope. This isn't contrived or Deus Ex Machina storytelling imo. It is, rather, effective storytelling (and in the D&D framework, effective DMing of a sort) that acknowledges that not all characters will be able to operate at peak all the time. And in my opinion, this is how a campaign ought to be run.

    Regarding the whole "Malack was defeated too easily" line of argument, this feels to me a lot like tuning in to the last ten minutes of Return of the Jedi, watching Wedge and Lando finishing up the Deathstar 2.0, and concluding that it was destroyed too effortlessly. It's worth remembering that Malack's defeat was the culmination of a number of things that went badly or unexpectedly for him: expended resources during Tarquin's fight with the Order, expended resources healing Tarquin up, lots of expended resources during the fight with Durkon, more yet expended vamping Durkon and protecting his spawn from sunlight, Tarquin suddenly removing the support of a party which Malack was likely counting on, destruction of the only shelter he had, and then finally, finally dispelling what active magic he had going. That sounds like a long, drawn out road to defeat to me, not a too-easy death.

    We could run what ifs on magic items for WoR all day long if we wanted to, but it still comes back to the same point: everything Mal would have to spend on that WoR access is something he couldn't put to some other purpose. Characters cannot have all options at once. Even assuming Tarquin could furnish him with magic items on demand, a character can only benefit from a fixed number of items at any given time. So wearing a ring of WoR would have denied him some other item he could have worn in its place. If he felt adequately protected, then it makes sense he would have felt better served by Something Else (tm). Turns out he was wrong, but characters make mistakes, and I don't find it strains belief that Malack could make mistakes too.

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