Word of Recall

[SavageWombat]

I don't think you can throw a staff as a move action. It has to be part of the disarm action somehow. It might be better to say that Nale got a surprise round action on Malack, then beat him on initiative.

[Math_Mage]

Both of these are more plausible than what actually happened.

More than what? Than not having Word of Recall prepped? We've seen Malack's style: he blasts and buffs and counts on his vampiric form for defense.

And let's be honest, Malack didn't see this coming, and neither did you. EVERYONE thought Nale was whipped. At best he would flee Malack's inevitable betrayal. Read the 905 thread if you don't believe me--I just did. When no one saw this coming with the benefit of OOC knowledge, why should Malack have expected to have the tables turned so suddenly and so precisely? He's not a genius, and he doesn't play D&D, and he already has half a dozen safety measures set up. That Nale dismantled them is more Nale's success than Malack's failure.

[Snails]

I don't think you can throw a staff as a move action. It has to be part of the disarm action somehow. It might be better to say that Nale got a surprise round action on Malack, then beat him on initiative.

While not obviously correct by the letter of the RAW, I think it gets points for common sense. It seems to me that grabbing a staff from an unsuspecting target who is casually holding it in one hand and chucking it 100' is easier than a lot of other things that rate Standard Action. IMHO.

[Math_Mage]

Re: Cifer, the phrase 'attack action' is in the SRD. See e.g. the footnote to the miscellaneous actions table in Actions in Combat. However, I don't think that reference should significantly influence your position. /pedant

While not obviously correct by the letter of the RAW, I think it gets points for common sense. It seems to me that grabbing a staff from an unsuspecting target who is casually holding it in one hand and chucking it 100' is easier than a lot of other things that rate Standard Action. IMHO.

It's most comparable to Sleight of Hand checks and Disarm attacks, both of which are standard actions. Move actions don't involve interaction with an opponent, even an unsuspecting one.

[Snails]

RAW, the exact phrase "attack action" has no meaning - unless you can point me towards a section in the rules where such a thing is explained. That's the funny thing: If it's not written somewhere, it's not RAW.

We do have a definition of Attack Action. "Attack" is a kind of Standard Action, thus it is an Action that happens to be an Attack. It is here in the table of standard actions. Under the list of "Actions" are things that are "Attacks".

So, by the letter of the RAW, we have a perfectly reasonable definition. I think it is reasonable to allow Malack to cast Slay Living here. YMMV.

[Fish]

Both of these are more plausible than what actually happened.

This comic is not "The Order of the Plausible." Characters sometimes make non-optimal choices. Rich does not roll %00 dice to see what happens next. (And even if he did, 00 comes up 1/100 times).

[Snails]

It's most comparable to Sleight of Hand checks and Disarm attacks, both of which are standard actions. Move actions don't involve interaction with an opponent, even an unsuspecting one.

By the letter of the RAW, you are correct. It is designer intent to control the pace of interactions between combatants with Standard Actions.

By the letter of the RAW, I would say the Sleight of Hand occurred in the Surprise Round. (As a DM, I would require a Bluff check here to gain surprise). Nale won initiative and chucked the staff in the first round. Z also won initiative and cast the Greater Dispel. When Malack finally was allowed to act, his goose was already cooking.

From a rules perspective, it is quite a bit of luck that Nale and Z both rolled well on initiative. From a story perspective and common sense perspective, big bonuses to initiative for a surprise coordinated attack makes perfect sense.

[Grey Watcher]

With regards to the events of 906 - At first I was stunned - jaw dropped and flabbergasted. I did not see this twist coming and thought it was brilliant

...

...

And let's be honest, Malack didn't see this coming, and neither did you.

...

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure Malack, as he enters Nergal's Realm is thinking "If only I had prepared Word of Recall instead of Flamestrike."

Maybe it's just gamer habit to do a post-mortem when one loses in order that you, the player can do better next time, but a loss is still legitimate, even if, in hindsight, there was something you could have done to prevent it. And, unlike a player sitting at a table or in front of a console, Malack can't do it over and learn from the mistake.

Malack left himself open, in however small a way, and Nale took full advantage of the opportunity.

[Sylian]

He was scary enough to hold Durkon down and drain him.

He did cast Divine Power before doing that, giving him a +6 Enchantment bonus to Strength, and at least a +3 Base Attack Bonus, probably more if he had racial hit dice. Oh, and 11-12 temporary HP, assuming cleric level 11-12.

[mhsmith]

As a different question, could Malack have used Vampiric Gaze? He mentioned it was basically unlimited. Or is there an expectation that Z and Nale both had high will saves?

[Porthos]

As a different question, could Malack have used Vampiric Gaze? He mentioned it was basically unlimited. Or is there an expectation that Z and Nale both had high will saves?

Z would have been a bad option with both Spell Resistance and high Will save. Nale? Maybe not as much, though I haven't thought about the math too much. But what exactly could Nale have done to help Malack in those two rounds? Not much that immediately leaps to mind.*

Besides, he wanted to drag Nale down with him as he was dying. Not sure how Dominate would help there.

* Actually, I suppose he could have had Nale Dimension Door himself and Malack to the staff. But that'd be giving him another opportunity for a save (at +2 BTW) since saving Malack's life is quite against Nale's nature.

Kinda doubt Nale would blow two saves like that when it was dramatically important.

[Cifer]

@SavageWombat
Yeah, I've thought about adding a surprise round too. It probably fits better.

[NZNinja]

I just had a thought on how it would go down if Malack had been able to use Word of Recall:

(EXT. DESERT)
NALE: Yoink! throws staff
:z: Greater Dispel Magic!
Malack starts smoking.
MALACK: Curse you, Nale! You haven't seen the last of me! WORD OF RECALL!
Nale smirks

(INT. MALACK'S CHAMBERS, TEMPLE OF NERGAL, BLEEDINGHAM)
MALACK: I'll kill that insufferable... wait, who opened those curtains?!?
Malack staggers towards the curtains, but bursts into flames and crumples to the floor before disintegrating into ash.

(EXT. DESERT)
NALE: Actually, I think I have. (evil grin)
NALE: I've been opening those curtains every day since I was nine.


Of course, playing it out this way would be less satisfying (and less dramatic) than staring in the eyes of your hated enemy as his consciousness remains alert even as his body burns and crumbles into ash. Err, I mean, I imagine that it would be less satisfying, if you were evil like Nale.

[tomandtish]

That's another issue too - the RAW is "attack action." Which can be literally interpreted to be "action used to attack." Under no interpretation is Word of Recall an attack.

We do have a definition of Attack Action. "Attack" is a kind of Standard Action, thus it is an Action that happens to be an Attack. It is here in the table of standard actions. Under the list of "Actions" are things that are "Attacks".

So, by the letter of the RAW, we have a perfectly reasonable definition. I think it is reasonable to allow Malack to cast Slay Living here. YMMV.

Actually, if you notice, all the actions listed as Attack actions are smaller font than Attack actions. You then have Cast a Spell back in the same size as Attack.

In short, while casting a spell may be an attack, it does not appear to be (as written) an Attack Action. Once you've cast a spell, the touch itself may be an attack action, but the casting itself is not. Therefore, Malack can't cast Word of Recall OR Slay Living or any other Spell (unless he has one as a Free Action or in some form that allows him to use it as a move action or an attack action, maybe a daily ability from his deity?).

Now to me, it is irrelevant. The way this plays out is awesome!

[Loth17]

I just had a thought on how it would go down if Malack had been able to use Word of Recall:

(EXT. DESERT)
NALE: Yoink! throws staff
:z: Greater Dispel Magic!
Malack starts smoking.
MALACK: Curse you, Nale! You haven't seen the last of me! WORD OF RECALL!
Nale smirks

(INT. MALACK'S CHAMBERS, TEMPLE OF NERGAL, BLEEDINGHAM)
MALACK: I'll kill that insufferable... wait, who opened those curtains?!?
Malack staggers towards the curtains, but bursts into flames and crumples to the floor before disintegrating into ash.

(EXT. DESERT)
NALE: Actually, I think I have. (evil grin)
NALE: I've been opening those curtains every day since I was nine.


Of course, playing it out this way would be less satisfying (and less dramatic) than staring in the eyes of your hated enemy as his consciousness remains alert even as his body burns and crumbles into ash. Err, I mean, I imagine that it would be less satisfying, if you were evil like Nale.

Does he even have curtains in his room?

[NerdyKris]

I just had a thought on how it would go down if Malack had been able to use Word of Recall:

(EXT. DESERT)
NALE: Yoink! throws staff
:z: Greater Dispel Magic!
Malack starts smoking.
MALACK: Curse you, Nale! You haven't seen the last of me! WORD OF RECALL!
Nale smirks

(INT. MALACK'S CHAMBERS, TEMPLE OF NERGAL, BLEEDINGHAM)
MALACK: I'll kill that insufferable... wait, who opened those curtains?!?
Malack staggers towards the curtains, but bursts into flames and crumples to the floor before disintegrating into ash.

(EXT. DESERT)
NALE: Actually, I think I have. (evil grin)
NALE: I've been opening those curtains every day since I was nine.


Of course, playing it out this way would be less satisfying (and less dramatic) than staring in the eyes of your hated enemy as his consciousness remains alert even as his body burns and crumbles into ash. Err, I mean, I imagine that it would be less satisfying, if you were evil like Nale.

That actually would have been pretty good as well. It would have been showing a slightly different side of Nale though. Or should I say, the same long term planning side we've always seen.

The battle we got was a unique side of Nale. The one that wins a battle against a superior foe through guile and tactics. One we haven't really seen much of, if at all. Nale is showing that he can be a threat when paired with Z and Sabine.


Also, I doubt the curtains thing would work. Even if Malak had curtains in his room, if that was where his Word of Recall sent him, then he'd have a guard posted to close the curtains at all times. If he prepared a Word of Recall in the event his protection from sunlight spells all failed, he'd be setting it for a place guaranteed not to have sunlight. There would be a whole different argument going on then. "Why did Malak set it for a room where he might get hit by sunlight?"

[IronFist]

Nale could have charmed said guard before they left.
Really, the whole discussion is pointless. Word of Recall can be countered in several ways. It could be by Nale being better prepared or we could have the drow casting Dimensional Anchor. It doesn't matter, the result is the same.

[Charity322]

It's fun to see how many pages people can keep arguing for even though the Giant already answered all the questions.

[Anteros]

Malack was relatively low on cleric levels. with a cr of 20, maybe he felt he could not afford to spend a 6th level slot on word of recall. It's quite redundant anyway, since he can always escape in gas form. Being stuck in sunlight is the only time when word of recall would really be useful. But then, that would requiren someone to dispel it in the first place, something to prevent him from casting his second prepared slot, and something to prevent him from casting it from the staff. Pretty unlikely, I say. I think another heal or harm or windwalk slot would be a reasonable choice.

Kinda makes you wonder why Redcloak had it prepared when all he was doing was lounging around the castle every day. Then again, I guess living with Xykon must be pretty dangerous.

[Mightymosy]

[...]

Look, what I'm saying is that if Malack HAD Recalled his way back to Bleedingham when Nale sucker-punched him, no one on the board would be crying foul or that it was out of character. Because of COURSE someone as paranoid and cautious as Malack would have WoR prepared, just in case of the worst case scenario. I find his failure to prepare the spell out of character.

[...]

Malack probably prepared for betraying and killing Nale during or after their mission, and therefore prepared powerful death spells like Harm. Remember, the last time Nale teleported away from Malck. This suggests that Malack is more powerful than Nale. And appaerantly vampires can turn into gaseuos form at will, so why bother? If you can turn into gaseous form and fly away unthreatened, why bother?

Being a vampire means a lot of invulnerability, and against the one really dangerous thing he had to fear - sunlight - he prepared multiple copies of a custom researched spell on himself and his staff.

You know what would be a prudent thing to do? Stay at home! Yeah, every character that ever appeared in the story except for V's family would be a lot safer when they just stayed at their respective home places.
So why wouldn't they do that? Because then there wouldn't be a story!!!

This is a fantasy adventure story! If you compare it to reality, you'll find alot more inconsistencies, because, well, this is not reality!

Why do you think Malack can cast Word of Recall anyway??? He never cast it, maybe Nergal doesn't offer this spell???

I understand the problem that in fantasy stories, whenever some powerful spell is presented, it becomes hard to explain why the same character doesn't use it again when the situation would clearly demand it. (Think the timestopping devices in Harry Potter for example). But in this case it was never ever shown or implied that Malack had access to the damn spell!

Even if he did know the spell, the comic showed again and again that all kinds of casters have a limited number of spell slots per day.

So Malack prepared being the aggressor, then got backstabbed and had "limited" defensive measures. Whoopsies

[NZNinja]

The battle we got was a unique side of Nale. The one that wins a battle against a superior foe through guile and tactics. One we haven't really seen much of, if at all. Nale is showing that he can be a threat when paired with Z and Sabine.

I was thinking "Nale has gained +1 Respect" while reading 906.

Also, I doubt the curtains thing would work. Even if Malak had curtains in his room, if that was where his Word of Recall sent him, then he'd have a guard posted to close the curtains at all times. If he prepared a Word of Recall in the event his protection from sunlight spells all failed, he'd be setting it for a place guaranteed not to have sunlight. There would be a whole different argument going on then. "Why did Malak set it for a room where he might get hit by sunlight?"

Because Malack was unprepared for being in a situation so messed up that he'd lost his staff, have used both his primary and back-up Protection from Daylight spells, been forced to retreat using Word of Recall because Gaseous Form wouldn't cut it AND have his Inner Sanctum penetrated while he was away.


Alternate final panel (instead of cutting back to Nale):
(INT. CORRIDOR, BLEEDINGHAM PALACE)
A woman (let's call her Suzy from Housekeeping) is pushing a trolley of cleaning products. *DING* (or other appropriate leveling up SFX) appears over her head four times.


Just because I'd find it funny for Nale to get his legitimate kill stolen by a random NPC... Although it would be a harsh GM that would award him no XP.

EDIT: Another option would be to show a flashback showing 9 year old Nale paying a Sorceror or Wizard to place a concealed Contingency on Malack's curtains/shutters/skylight/whatever... Something like "(quizzical expression) So you want these to open if a burning vampire enters the room?"
Which would be just another layer of complexity to Nale's usual multi-level plans. Although keeping the same curtains for over a decade would conflict with the semi-regular change of management and the associated decor changes. Blame Kilkil for being too effective at keeping costs down (although I don't believe he's part of Tarquin's regular crew).

[Douglas]

Why do you think Malack can cast Word of Recall anyway??? He never cast it, maybe Nergal doesn't offer this spell???

I understand the problem that in fantasy stories, whenever some powerful spell is presented, it becomes hard to explain why the same character doesn't use it again when the situation would clearly demand it. (Think the timestopping devices in Harry Potter for example). But in this case it was never ever shown or implied that Malack had access to the damn spell!

However much The Giant might be willing to bend or ignore the rules of D&D to better serve the story, this is still a story set in a world that operates by the rules of D&D. By those rules, Malack has demonstrated that he has spellcasting ability of a type and level that, also by those rules, necessarily also grants access to Word of Recall.

Yes, Malack was never specifically shown to use Word of Recall, but the framework he operated in implied the ability to do so.

Even if he did know the spell, the comic showed again and again that all kinds of casters have a limited number of spell slots per day.

So Malack prepared being the aggressor, then got backstabbed and had "limited" defensive measures. Whoopsies

This, on the other hand, is a valid and reasonable point, and very much in the same vein The Giant already stated. Word of Recall was at the extreme peak of Malack's abilities, and he had lots of other critical demands on those top resources and good reasons to believe WoR would not be needed.

Kinda makes you wonder why Redcloak had it prepared when all he was doing was lounging around the castle every day. Then again, I guess living with Xykon must be pretty dangerous.

Redcloak had more 6th level slots, and 7th and 8th level spells too. He had the resources to spare one 6th level slot on an unlikely contingency far more easily than Malack, and did not have the defensive abilities of a vampire to fall back on instead.

[137beth]

However much The Giant might be willing to bend or ignore the rules of D&D to better serve the story, this is still a story set in a world that operates by the rules of D&D. By those rules, Malack has demonstrated that he has spellcasting ability of a type and level that, also by those rules, necessarily also grants access to Word of Recall.

Yes, Malack was never specifically shown to use Word of Recall, but the framework he operated in implied the ability to do so.

What, so you never heard of certain gods in D&D refusing to grant spells which are contrary to their ideals? The GENERAL rule is that all clerics get access to all non-alignment spells, but exceptions exist...

[Anteros]

Redcloak had more 6th level slots, and 7th and 8th level spells too. He had the resources to spare one 6th level slot on an unlikely contingency far more easily than Malack, and did not have the defensive abilities of a vampire to fall back on instead.

I understand that. I wasn't even trying to compare him to Malak. It just seems an odd spell to prepare if you're never really planning on going more than a 5 minute walk from your room at any point during the day. I'm sure preparing it was just part of his daily routine or something though. After all, his boss is a Lich who may capriciously decide to teleport him across the continent at any given moment.

[Kaerou]

He didn't need to have word of recall prepped, it is an instant duration spell and its only activation after casting is a single uttered word, and speech is not prohibited. He could have had it cast years ago and needed to only speak to activate it. I don't even count this as a 'limit of preparedness' type deal. This spell has no duration. At some point in hundreds of years all it would take it casting it once. It is the most basic first point of preparedness on a cleric/druid's part.

If its a memory oversight on the authors part, that's fine and that's what I consider it. I used this spell for years in game on my Druid and I forgot it did not have a duration.

[Kish]

He didn't need to have word of recall prepped, it is an instant duration spell and its only activation after casting is a single uttered word, and speech is not prohibited. He could have had it cast years ago and needed to only speak to activate it.

Again, no. I don't know what you're talking about. Yes, it's an instantaneous duration spell, not a permanent duration spell as the rest of your post seems to be claiming. You cast it, you get teleported. If he cast it years ago...then he got teleported, whenever he cast it. "A single uttered word" is casting the spell, it's not something that "activates" the spell after it was cast.

[Kaerou]

Again, no. I don't know what you're talking about. Yes, it's an instantaneous duration spell, not a permanent duration spell as the rest of your post seems to be claiming. You cast it, you get teleported.

Word of Recall
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Clr 6,
Range: Unlimited
Duration: Instantaneous

Word of recall teleports you instantly back to your sanctuary when the word is uttered.

This spell is literally a 'safeword'

[edit]

I reread it a few times.. he would have needed to actually have it prepared at the time, though the actual casting would only need a single word.

I was wrong. Sorry.

[Filippo]

The Giant has spoken, so be it.

But...there is another possibility(that maybe the Giant don't want to spoil for us)

A spell like Word of Recall who is extreamely useful in some circustancies, and you don't have to cast in advance...witch would occupy your highest level spell slots and could possibly gone unused or be redundancy with innate ability...witch you simply have to have always at hand...

I, for once, would have put it in the staff...

[angry_bear]

It was shown earlier that Z had a teleport memorized for the day. If the group had needed a quick escape, it was the elf's job to get them out. Mal, being a team player didn't consider the possibility of being betrayed. He probably should have, but as it is, he had a perceived ally who could get them out if need be, and enough protection spells and spell like abilities in place that he shouldn't have even needed to consider something like WoR.

[Snails]

Kinda makes you wonder why Redcloak had it prepared when all he was doing was lounging around the castle every day. Then again, I guess living with Xykon must be pretty dangerous.

A little streak of cowardice was once considered a Good Thing for the bearer of Xykon's precious phylactery. That gave Xykon a measure of safety to go gonzo with little fear of repercussions, if he were in the mood. Xykon has had some second thoughts on that subject recently.

While a few people are down on Malack for not having a better escape plan, one of the best planners in the OotSverse panicked in the face of a barely armed paladin of similar level. In the eyes of "serious D&D players", Redcloak should have been able to stand his ground for a few rounds without breaking a sweat. It just goes to show that characters in the OotSverse are a lot more human than the in game avatars of people who have died and respawned or reincarnated tens of times. That should be no surprise.