Random Worldbuilding Questions (Biology, Geography, Society, etc.)

[jseah]

Last thread reached 50 pages:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243828

The MST3K Mantra: "It's just a show; I should really just relax."

But that's no reason to just make stuff up without giving any thought to how elements of a setting are supposed to work. They don't need to work exactly as in nature, but to many creators it is desirable to stick to nature for as long as it works and only starting to come up with entirely fictional explainations when it becomes actually neccessary. That way things appear more natural and can stand up under a closer second or even third look.

That's what this thread is for. Sharing knowledge on how things actually without needing to resort to "it's magic". Since this is not only relevant to people who are actually making up entire worlds or creating new creatures, but also to common GMs making adventures for their own groups, I think it's best to put it here in the General RPG-Forum and not put it far away out of sight in the Worldbuilding-Forum.
If you have a better title for this thread in mind, let me know and it can be changed.

If you have a question regarding military technology and tactics, there's the Real World Weapons or Armour Questions Thread. There's a lot of experts on these things, who can help you out with almost anything on this subject. For everything else, like animal biology, cave formation, agriculture, government systems, architecture, industry, or whatever else you can think of that might be relevant to making your campaigns realistic, or at least plausible, this thread is the place to go.
I would suggest to not have discussions about electronics, robotics, and space travel, because I think they have a tendency to grow into very big debates that might overshadow more minor questions that would fall to the side. The Media Discussions forum usually has very interesting threads on such subjects and I think you'll get very good answers to questions regarding these subject there.

Another suggestion is to highlight if you have a new question, so they don't get missed when they are posted in the middle of a larger discussion on something else.

Social/Economics Question:
What would the social and economic impact of an almost insatiable demand for unskilled labour be?

More specifically, in a setting that I am building, there is a common job that can be performed by anyone who is willing to put in the time and does not require physical fitness. Demand for it is very high as this underpins most of the capital industry in this magi-tech setting.
What would the impact of such have on society?

This is not D&D.

Background:

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In the variant of the magic system I am using, everyone can use magic. Some are good at it, some not so good; a bit like how not everyone is suited to being an engineer.

Enchanting magic items is a complex task which is mainly bottlenecked by the humongous magical power requirements (something to the tune of 8700 times more power than the per-hour magical output of the item).

Obviously, no single person can enchant magic items, or will take absolutely forever to do so. Fortunately, someone discovered how to crystallize raw magic and any caster can use stockpiled magic crystals to augment their own power and do enchantments in record time.

Since this is a magic-tech setting, everything uses magic. They have not even discovered how to use electricity. Their non-magic technology level is roughly on par with knowing how to make steel reliably.

So everything runs on magic, from the enchantments that keep the skyscrapers from collapsing under their own weight, to the levitation tubes that shuttle people up and down floors. To airship magic engines and self-boiling kettles.
All of that needs copious amounts of magical enchantment, which requires huge amounts of the magic crystals.

Fortunately, learning how to crystallize magic is ridiculously easy. Anyone smarter than a 10 year old kid should be able to do it and learning how to do this is on the mandatory schooling requirement. To date, only the vegetables can't, even bed-ridden quadriplegics can still crystallize magic.

There exists a magic crystal market, there are buyers that post daily prices per magic unit, and with 8 hours a day, a single person can sell enough magic to feed himself. Magic crystals are perfectly interchangeable and therefore the market for raw magic is about as close to a perfect market as you can get. These buyers then sell onwards their magic crystal stocks to companies and firms that enchant machines, engines, structures, just about anything.

[Yora]

If the job is easier and pays better than some skilled jobs or other unskilled jobs, people would quit those job to also get the new one.

As a result, the demand for those skilled professionals would increase, which would probably be compensated by raising wages and prices for the products and services they provide.

In the end, overall wages would rise until the new unskilled job is once again the worst paying one.

However, that means the cost for any other products and services will rise, possibly quite significantly. Which I would assume reduces the average standard of living, since people have to pay more for food and clothing and don't have any money left for less basic neccessities.

[TheStranger]

There probably isn't a hard and fast answer to this question, especially as regards the social impact.

Economically (and socially, I suppose), I'd be inclined to treat it as just another form of unskilled labor. Demand can't be unlimited; it's still limited by the demand for whatever the crystallized magic is used for (which is itself limited by numerous factors). If it's something that anybody can do, I would assume that it'll be paid about as well as other things that anybody can do. Presumably, there are still things that it makes sense to pay somebody to do by hand, whether that's loading trucks, digging ditches, mopping floors, or whatever. If crystallizing magic is less physically/mentally demanding than these things, it might even be lower-paying.

In fact, I'd suggest that this should occupy pretty much the lowest rung on your economic ladder. You could easily justify magic-extraction "sweatshops" where people work 12+ hours a day for starvation wages. Because ultimately, this is work for people with no special skills; if anybody can do it, it's going to have a larger potential labor pool than anything else, and replacement labor will be cheap.

Alternately, you could play it so that everybody is paid a living wage and there's enough of everything to go around. My inner cynic rejects that idea, but it all depends on how things are regulated and/or your assumptions about the behavior of unregulated markets. Which is a potentially-divisive topic that we probably shouldn't discuss too deeply on this board.

So I'd suggest that you just decide what you want the social and economic structure to look like, and then worry about justifying it. You could play this as utopia, dystopia, or anything in between (including pretty much any historical era with the serial numbers filed off).

[Animastryfe]

Does this method absolutely require humans to do it? If not, then why has no one found an automated way to create these crystals? Is it a simple case of manual labor being cheaper than automation? If so, then this reminds me of the early industrial revolution.

[jseah]

Yora:
Hmm, so a bit like Australia, where everything labour intensive is ridiculously expensive.

Yeah, I can see that.


TheStranger:
The idea was to have this pay roughly equivalent to a minimum wage job in present RL. Barely liveable, not very nice.
The idea was to have it be the lowest rung of the economic ladder. The social term "mana farm" being it.

I didn't envision sweatshops when I thought of it though. I was thinking more like a pawnshop style arrangement where counters check and verify the crystals and pay the list price in cash, instead of the suppliers being directly involved in the mana farms.
People just do it on their own time and pop down to the shop once a day to turn in their day's work and collect the day's earnings.

Spoiler

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There's also the unrelated idea of a "mana tax" where the government takes a 1% slice of the entire crystal market in crystals. Usually paid by suppliers in cash equivalent of the list price, but the government can and has demanded it in crystals before.
The military applications are obvious of course, and a 1% slice guarantees the military will get its magic needs.

Animastryfe:
The method does not absolutely require humans. But due to the way the magic system works, enchantment-based magic crystal factories take something around 5 years to break even in terms of magic output (that's the 8700 times multiplier), to say nothing about the skill needed to use crystals in the first place.

Until you start to saturate other capital industry needs, which will take a long long time, automated mana farms aren't quite cost efficient yet.

[TheStranger]

Another thought, given the 8700x multiplier - how efficient is it, really, to use magic for anything?

Let's say a person spends all day creating a crystal. That crystal has some concrete value in terms of magical "work" done - that stored mana can be used to heat water, or move rocks, or whatever. Given the 8700x multiplier, that value is probably pretty low - so you have a person who's working all day to imbue a crystal that does the amount of actual work that person could do in ten minutes, even at medieval tech levels.

It just seems like there's no incentive to do anything with magic if it can conceivably be done mundanely. And even if it can't, the magical solution is likely to be prohibitively expensive, just because literally thousands of man-hours go into creating even a simple enchantment.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your system, it seems like the economics of this are mind-boggling. Not that this is an argument against doing it, because it's a neat idea. But just be aware that fridge logic might be working against you on this one.

[jseah]

It just seems like there's no incentive to do anything with magic if it can conceivably be done mundanely. And even if it can't, the magical solution is likely to be prohibitively expensive, just because literally thousands of man-hours go into creating even a simple enchantment.

Which will work and keep working. I've envisioned capital depreciation (cost of maintenance and occasional replacements) at maybe 1% or less per year. And zero running cost.

Also, its worse than your ratio. You don't spend a day to make a machine that will do ten minutes of worth work continuously every hour. You spend about a man-year doing that. Maybe more.

Building something like a magic-based suspension bridge takes a small army of people making crystals to fuel the construction requirements. The engine of an airship out-costs the rest of the airship by hundreds of times. But the bridge will still be there 60 years from now, and your airship still flies.

In a certain sense, the capital industry in this setting is somewhat similar to the egyptians building the pyramids in terms of man-hours needed to get stuff done.

[5a Violista]

To me, it sounds like the enchanted objects are things that only millionaires, governments, military, and big businesses can afford. Maybe, once in a while, there'll be a smaller group that has enchanted objects and stuff.

As a result, I would expect the advanced MagiTech to be commonplace wherever the leaders of the country meet, and in other big cities. The further away you get from those city, the more mundane the environment. Get far enough away, and the main industry will be this minimum-wage crystal production.

From there, we can assume that the big money-makers far away from the large cities will be the merchants, the deliverers, and the middle-men between the production and the big companies. If you find a large, opulent house, then chances are the person is a salesman or businessman, not a factory-worker (crystal producer).

In the larger cities, there will be more options of work, more education, and fewer people wanting to this crystal production. Much of the supply will probably come from outlying cities, and crystal-production will become a family trade, much like farming or craftsmanship. Because of the distant supply from the demand, the middleman and caravan merchants will be able to raise their prices and still earn a profit when selling to the government and big companies.

Then, from what I understand, life goes on.

[TheStranger]

Which will work and keep working. I've envisioned capital depreciation (cost of maintenance and occasional replacements) at maybe 1% or less per year. And zero running cost.

Also, its worse than your ratio. You don't spend a day to make a machine that will do ten minutes of worth work continuously every hour. You spend about a man-year doing that. Maybe more.

Building something like a magic-based suspension bridge takes a small army of people making crystals to fuel the construction requirements. The engine of an airship out-costs the rest of the airship by hundreds of times. But the bridge will still be there 60 years from now, and your airship still flies.

In a certain sense, the capital industry in this setting is somewhat similar to the egyptians building the pyramids in terms of man-hours needed to get stuff done.

I had a long post written out about why it still wasn't economical, but I think I changed my own mind in the process of writing it. Basically, my conclusion is that it might make sense to pay for "constant" magical effects, like keeping an airship in the air. If I'm understanding you right, a constant effect returns its magical investment in about a year, which sounds reasonable (depending on the efficiency of magic in general). Of course, the marginal benefit of the magical solution over a mundane alternative needs to be sufficient to justify adding magic in the first place.

I don't think it makes sense to pay that multiplier for one-time effects, though. In that case, it's probably cheaper to pay for castings as needed, unless you'll need them insanely often. The only exception I could see is military; it might be worth stockpiling that magical energy, even with the 1/8700 discount, just so you can "go nova" when you really need to.

[Yora]

Maybe someone here might have a very rough estimate for me:

The situation at hand is: How much gear would a character in pathfinder have to carry around when going on a one week hike through the wilderness?

Now I don't want to make a list of all the items I would put into a characters inventory and calculate the weight, since the listed weights are probably all over the place and I don't know what an actual 5th century frontiersman would carry around with him.

Ignoring weapon and armor for now, how much would he be likely to carry in food, water, spare clothing, tools, blankets, and a small tent perhaps? What do current day hikers take on an outdoor trip, though that would probably have to account for modern leightwight materials.
Could such a character stay under 20kg and still be reasonably prepared to take on the wilds?

[jseah]

I don't think it makes sense to pay that multiplier for one-time effects, though. In that case, it's probably cheaper to pay for castings as needed, unless you'll need them insanely often. The only exception I could see is military; it might be worth stockpiling that magical energy, even with the 1/8700 discount, just so you can "go nova" when you really need to.

Oh, well, certainly not for one-time effects no. You won't enchant a crane just to lift a heavy block of stone. You'll enchant a general purpose Engine, attach it to harness the motive power, which you can use to pull a pulley to power a crane.

And then after it's done, you take it out of the crane and put it work somewhere else, like a factory. Or a millionaire's car-equivalent. Or drive a turbine to pump water or drive an airship.

There should be a massive reliance on general Engines that do Work, and you put those expensive things into various applications as needed. Chassis are cheap after all, at least in comparison to the Engine.

[TheStranger]

Ignoring weapon and armor for now, how much would he be likely to carry in food, water, spare clothing, tools, blankets, and a small tent perhaps? What do current day hikers take on an outdoor trip, though that would probably have to account for modern leightwight materials.
Could such a character stay under 20kg and still be reasonably prepared to take on the wilds?

From extensive personal experience, I can say that a modern backpacker would carry well under 20kg on a one-week trip. I'd say mid-range modern gear allows you to go for a week at ~15kg. If you go with ultralight gear and strip out everything that isn't essential, you could go as low as 10kg.

But as you said, that assumes modern materials. It also assumes a pretty narrow definition of "essential." I don't normally carry a tent (usually I bring a small tarp). Or a first aid kit. Or any tools other than a small knife. Or rain gear. That also assumes summer conditions. Winter clothing and bedding are much heavier. Also, if you're unprepared in winter, you're more likely to end up dead instead of uncomfortable.

But I'd say you could easily stay under 20kg, even without modern materials. Although I've never played in a game where it was an issue.

Just for fun, here's a gear list:
Backpack
Bedroll
Tarp or other waterproof covering (about 8'x10' for 1-2 people. Botched survival rolls may result in unhappiness; bring a tent if you're worried. Omit entirely if you're hardcore.)
Knife
~25' of lightweight rope (lighter than PHB rope; I use clothesline)
Waterskin (multiple if you're in a dry area)
Purification tablets (unnecessary in a fantasy setting)
Toilet paper (you can use leaves if you know what poison ivy looks like)
Flint & steel
Cookstove (recommended, but optional if you trust your fire-building skills)
Fuel
Small cookpot (~1 liter)
Spoon
Food (~1 kg/day)
Flask of good whiskey (optional, but recommended)

I probably forgot something, but I think that's the basics.

[Yora]

In a society where iron is not commonly used, what would use to cook food while traveling through the wilds. A copper pot?

[Thinker]

In a society where iron is not commonly used, what would use to cook food while traveling through the wilds. A copper pot?

Pottery/ceramics, turtle/tortoise shells (with clay coating), bronze, copper, cooking basket (with clay coating).

[Yora]

Those seem pretty troublesome to drag around on a long footmarch. Did people do that or was food on the trail either fruits or roasted meat?

[Thinker]

Those seem pretty troublesome to drag around on a long footmarch. Did people do that or was food on the trail either fruits or roasted meat?

People used those sorts of things for cooking historically, though I don't know about on the trail. Still, you only need one small pot to make food for oneself, to boil water (for tea or purification or something), to use as a plate, and can be used to hold stuff while it's stowed away. A single small pot isn't that heavy, regardless of material and when I've backpacked in the past, I've taken one with me made of cast-iron.

[elliott20]

re: using magic to do stuff

you have to remember though that if magic crystal creation is such a critical component to societal functioning, it would be natural for people to start rushing towards that industry in an attempt to find ways to make things cheaper to do.

i.e.
- find ways to make energy consumption more efficient (maybe try pushing the energy requirement down to 5000x to 500x)
- find ways to make crystal creation faster / cheaper
- find alternative sources of energy
- find ways to utilize the crystals

the situation OP described is actually an example of a perfectly competitive market, with no entry barrier, and incredibly high demand. As such, you'll see prices of said crystals start getting pushed down as people start to crowd the industry, basically commoditizing energy crystals.

That is, until one of the people figure out one of the things I list above, at which point said person will probably start growing by acquisition, creating a magic crystal conglomerate, as it swallows up local competition.

In addition, I am surprised that local authorities have not laid down a metric ton of regulations surrounding this, seeing as magic crystals are such a critical part of society.

[TheStranger]

Thinker's answers are spot on, and a copper pot is a fine substitute for steel/iron, but I'll add that it depends on the culture, the person, and the reason for wandering around in the wilderness. A skilled woodsman who's only out for a short period might travel light, relying on food that doesn't require cooking (nuts, dried meat, granola, etc.) and what he can find (which might be plenty anyway). A frontiersman who's planning to pretty much live his life in the wilderness will probably have a cookpot, even if it's a little heavier than he might like (but he might not be as concerned with traveling fast). A wealthy explorer might have a whole expedition worth of people to carry that sort of thing, leaving him free to strike heroic poses with his spyglass. Generally speaking, people would do some cost-benefit analysis with the options available to them - including cooking implements, foodstuffs, wealth, and survival skills.

Two other points: first, if you're with a group of people, you can designate one person to carry the cookpot, in exchange for another person carrying the tent, and another person the bulk of the food, and so on, so that even if the cookpot is unwieldy, the burden is spread around. Second, pack animals can be helpful; there's nothing wrong with throwing all your heavy gear on a mule.

[Yora]

Speaking of mules. If you had a group of "bronze age"-ish warriors like in northern and western Europe, who are on a several day long trip to visit another village, would they be traveling by foot?
In North America, there were no horses or even cows, but people still used dogs to pull loads. And in central asia, people were apparently riding horses before they were walking according to some probably exagerated expressions. So availability of mounts or pack animals would obviously be the greatest factor, but where such animals where available would it be common for the more well off people to take one on long travels rather than doing it all on foot with a backpack?
Or instead, are there any good reasons not to take a mount or pack animal if one is available? If I run a setting with huge open wilderness, should the PCs perhaps start out with ponys from the very beginning?

This is of course fantasy, but how about an educated guess?

[TheStranger]

Speaking of mules. If you had a group of "bronze age"-ish warriors like in northern and western Europe, who are on a several day long trip to visit another village, would they be traveling by foot?
In North America, there were no horses or even cows, but people still used dogs to pull loads. And in central asia, people were apparently riding horses before they were walking according to some probably exagerated expressions. So availability of mounts or pack animals would obviously be the greatest factor, but where such animals where available would it be common for the more well off people to take one on long travels rather than doing it all on foot with a backpack?
Or instead, are there any good reasons not to take a mount or pack animal if one is available? If I run a setting with huge open wilderness, should the PCs perhaps start out with ponys from the very beginning?

This is of course fantasy, but how about an educated guess?

Again, it depends. If the terrain is conducive to horses, people will probably ride horses given the choice, particularly if they have a significant amount of stuff to transport. If it's a dense jungle, they probably won't (and there might not be horses available anyway). And PCs, of course, will seldom bother with pack animals because they can't go in dungeons, there are other things to spend money on, carrying 50 lbs. on your back doesn't hurt as much on paper, and the Barbarian can carry more weight than the horse anyway.

[fusilier]

Those seem pretty troublesome to drag around on a long footmarch. Did people do that or was food on the trail either fruits or roasted meat?

To the best of my knowledge they did carry such items on marches. Pottery was very popular for a long time. It might break, but it was usually cheap and easy to find. You don't need to carry around a huge pot or skillet either, a couple of small ones will usually suffice for a small group of people.

[Brother Oni]

As an example of multipurpose cookpots, the Japanese peasant foot soldier (Ashigaru) helmet or jingasa, was used out of combat to cook food in.

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Given that the main staple was rice with possibly some vegetables, it was probably a lot easier to clean for wearing after eating than a more typical western meal.

[Beleriphon]

Given that the main staple was rice with possibly some vegetables, it was probably a lot easier to clean for wearing after eating than a more typical western meal.

I don't know about that, some water and cooked grain isn't that hard to clean. Mind you bronze age armour wasn't usually made of bronze, or even copper, but rather things like linens so those don't usually make very good pots for cooking.

[Thinker]

Speaking of mules. If you had a group of "bronze age"-ish warriors like in northern and western Europe, who are on a several day long trip to visit another village, would they be traveling by foot?
In North America, there were no horses or even cows, but people still used dogs to pull loads. And in central asia, people were apparently riding horses before they were walking according to some probably exagerated expressions. So availability of mounts or pack animals would obviously be the greatest factor, but where such animals where available would it be common for the more well off people to take one on long travels rather than doing it all on foot with a backpack?
Or instead, are there any good reasons not to take a mount or pack animal if one is available? If I run a setting with huge open wilderness, should the PCs perhaps start out with ponys from the very beginning?

This is of course fantasy, but how about an educated guess?

Many animals had been domesticated for thousands of years by the bronze age, many of which can be used as pack animals:

• Dogs - 30,000 to 15,000 BC
• Cattle - 8,000 BC
• Donkey - 5,000 BC
• Water Buffalo - 4,000 BC
• Horse - 4,000 BC
• Camel - 4,000 BC
• Yak - 2,500 BC
• Llama - 2,400 BC
• Alpaca - 2,400 BC

If your PCs are going to be adventuring on the frontier, I would recommend that they take dogs with them. Dogs were used during war by the Celts so there is precedence for ancient guard dogs. They've always hunted alongside people, so could help with foraging for food. When carrying many objects, having a pack dog would be useful, especially if they need to descend into a dungeon. They can also go through thickly wooded areas and other rough terrain while also having the stamina to keep up with a horse, should the PCs want to ride horses. Basically, dogs are awesome for adventuring.

[Yora]

Basically, dogs are awesome for adventuring.

Basically, dogs are awesome. Their abilities complement those of humans very well and vice versa, while they both have the brains and the stamina for sustained long-distance, cooperative hunting. They work with the team but also take initiative by themselves. There's really good reasons canines were about the first animals to be domesticated and do stuff that still can't be taken over by machines.

[Yora]

More wilderness travel:

In a world where there are basically no roads, traders transporting goods over long distances would probably have to go either by boat or mule, right? Unless you're traveling through plains with firm ground, carts would probably not do it?

[Jacob.Tyr]

More wilderness travel:

In a world where there are basically no roads, traders transporting goods over long distances would probably have to go either by boat or mule, right? Unless you're traveling through plains with firm ground, carts would probably not do it?

A lot of major human routes are based around large animal trails. The Natchez Trace was a large game trail built up around animals accessing salt licks, and wound up being adopted for human use. So assuming your world has salt and large quadrupeds it might already have some early roads.

[Aux-Ash]

Just by boat really. While a mule can handle difficult terrain, multiple ones will be difficult and the more you bring the slower you'll move. A cart is really unfeasible off the road, particularily ones dragged by heavy beasts of burden. Dromedaries and camels are decent alternatives though (usually because where they're used you don't have to worry about paths being completely overgrown).

But in temperate, moist tropical and sub-arctic climates you really don't have much choice to take larger bulks of cargo on boats or make roads. Swamps becomes virtually impassible with cargo without roads, as does forests and mountains really.
They don't really need to be constructed roads as much as a travelled path mind. All it takes is regular travel along it for it not to be overgrown (which is why so many roads are the shortest and safest distance between settlements). So most roads develop rather naturally as people travel that distance anyways.

Wintertime sleds and skies make excellent alternatives though. Ice, frozen ground and snow pretty much eliminate the need for roads on flat land (it makes travel over mountains hopeless though).

[Raum]

More wilderness travel:

In a world where there are basically no roads, traders transporting goods over long distances would probably have to go either by boat or mule, right? Unless you're traveling through plains with firm ground, carts would probably not do it?

Goods of any quantity are going to go by boat. (Even today transporting cargo by water is cheaper than any other method...by a factor of 15 or so.)

Short distances may go by mule but longer distances are going to have to deal with feeding the mules...which means a large percentage of what they can carry gets dedicated to food. If you try to rely on grazing you'll cut back the distance you can travel in a day and the amount of weight you can put on the mules. Additionally, you limit your travel to the growing season.

[Yora]

That would strongly indicate that merchant companies in my setting are mostly opperating by boat. That certainly adds an interesting new element to it.

Can you travel upriver on a sailship if winds are not completely in your favor? The geography would be somewhat like the United States eastcost (though without the Appalachians causing the land to rise quickly) or the Chinese coast, with rivers generally flowing from Northwest-West to Southeast-East. I think in those longitudes, winds would be mostly Southwest to Northeast, which isn't exactly pushing any ships against the current.
Could you still use sailships, or would you have to switch to rowboats?