General WoD Discussion #3 Third time's the charm - No wait, that sounds too Exalted

[Scowling Dragon]

The fact that you seem to have taken a cursory look on the new Discipline rules and decided vampires are now untouchable to mortals is on you, not anyone else.

Why Hello there Mr Strawman, hows it going chasing away crows! Fine and dandy correct?

[Ravian]

Its so that the Fluff and the Mechanics Match.

I guess the new version of the Masquerade is that "The super powerful vampires that had nothing to fear from Humans din't feel like taking over the world", so I guess they are accurate anyway. However I preferred it when it was the Vampires had to fear Humans and their Hunters and everything.

Its an issue of what you have to fear from a Hunter letsay. What do you have to fear from Humanity.

The idea of the masquerade is that humans still have a numbers advantage, and can operate during the daylight with full mobility. (something even high humanity vampires will have difficulty with). Vampires will still lose if it comes to all-out war. But more importantly, humans don't want a war either. It's not going to be an easy war even if they will win, and it will come at severe casualties for both sides. Because the vampires are already hidden among us, so humans can't just them like we would with most wars, where only those who volunteer put their life on the line. But humans don't know about vampires even if they think they might be out there. As such they're willing to buy their own excuse that "there's no such thing as vampires" and live in that grey area, because admitting the truth is far more terrifying.

The arrangement is essentially a sort of mutually assured destruction arrangement. Vampires maintain the masquerade so they don't spook the herd and get themselves trampled. Humanity tries to ignore the breaches as hoaxes because they don't want to be spooked and end up dying in the stampede as well. So the vampires feed where they will and play their games with one another, and the humans clean up the mess when a vampire starts to get out of hand.

The analogy of living in gangland is very fitting. The difference is instead of cops whose job it would be to stop them, it would be the neighborhood themselves that would have to step up and take them down. And even though the gangs would probably lose if the whole neighborhood started to turn on them with armed resistance. It would still be a bloodbath for them, and nobody wants that.

The exception of course are hunters, but then hunters tend to be insane from both the mortal and supernatural perspectives.

On mortal power level, I think it's true that supernaturals will always be able to take on mortals with ease. Mortals are more like an environmental hazard. A couple of random cops show up at your haven after some strange noise complaints.? You could kill them easy enough, but if you do, the department might send in a swat team in response. Even if they don't kill you, they could still make your undeath miserable by closing down your haven. And if you keep on killing them, eventually you will get hunters who can play smart. And regardless of your power level, if a bunch of humans come a knocking on your door during the daylit hours with a can of gasoline you're still going to burn. But in addition to this you also have to deal with other vampires who don't want the extra mortal pressure you're causing with your antics, and you may even get hung out to dry when someone slips to those hunters your address and where you keep your spare key.

Of course on the other hand you could try handling the cops without causing a stir. For most a bit of mind control would work. Or you could take yourself to the station and try to keep the chief assuaged. Work out an agreement that your place is off-limits and in exchange no one at city hall has to know about the bribe money he's been picking up from the mafia, or the narcotics that go missing from the evidence room.

Humans are like a room full of beehives. If you don't mess with them they won't mess with you, and ff you're careful you can get the honey. You could even kill a few if you're careful and make sure the rest don't see. But stir the hive too much and you'll get swarmed. You could probably smash a nest or two in the fight, but they'll still take you down eventually, no matter how many have to die by stinging you.

[Rater202]

Mortals pose just as much threat to Vampires as they always have.

As said before, as the heart and brain are exceptions to the ":Vamps don't give a damn about organs" rule, a bullet to the brain pan is just as much a problem for a vampire as it is for a mortal.

Thus, a group of trained mortals that know about Vampires and how to properly aim a gun will probably win against a yunger vampire, and elder vampires never do things themselves if they can send a fledgling minion to do it for them.

Mortal Sniper: Bullet in the brain. dead.

6 thugs with Shotguns? Vampiric salsa.

Bomb technician? Enough bodily damage will kill a vamp, so concussive force mixed with shrapnel should kill or at least significantly injure most vampires.

Note that most elder vampires are ignorant of technology more recent than the gatling rifle, and are arrogant/paranoid enough to not listen to their Childer when it's pointed out how dangerous this tech is.

Now note that a small but significant percent of the mortal population has psychic powers. These 2 point per dot merits are about as potent as some disciplines.

And then there's the entire other Gameline devoted to Mortals f***ing up the s*** of supernatural creatures.

Yo're looking directly at the improved combat applications of vampires, without considering the abilities of mortals.

Now let's look at non combat-social ties, allies, contacts, support networks. Mortals have those two, and they tend to be bigger.

[sktarq]

Mortals pose just as much threat to Vampires as they always have.....
And then there's the entire other Gameline devoted to Mortals f***ing up the s*** of supernatural creatures.

Yo're looking directly at the improved combat applications of vampires, without considering the abilities of mortals.

Now let's look at non combat-social ties, allies, contacts, support networks. Mortals have those two, and they tend to be bigger.

Yeah I still think you are missing the point. The relative power that a supernatural must face posed by a normal human has significantly changed. There are still ways for humans to pose major problems but it takes more humans, more planning, more equipment, more variables falling in the mortals favor. And I am VERY much considering the abilities of mortals and think the range of situations in which they have the advantage or even significant chance of winning a social, mental, influence, or physical confrontation (not necessarily face to face) to have dropped significantly during the GMC update. And all those advantages you mention for the mortals-they had them in nWoD before the GMC update and are what made them such interesting challenges for supernaturals-and those haven't changed in relative power with the update. So how big a system of allies, contacts, etc that a normal needs to match a vampire for example is significantly larger which drops the number of normals for whom that is true. And as mortals have had various psychic abilities in nWoD too (being presented in the Second Sight supplement) I wouldn't call moving that ability to the core book as a significant gain-and they were merits then too.

In nWoD it would be like taking on an African Porcupine on the Savannah with a knife. Doable but must be handled with care, time must be spent planning your approach and retreat angles if the bugger makes a reverse charge toward you. In GMC it is like taking on the same animal with a boar spear. In the wrong situation the blighter still can be dangerous but its actually pretty safe.

[Scowling Dragon]

Stuff

This is all wonderful stuff but this is not how me or my friends interpreted the fluff.

In cwod Vampires and Supernaturals where also significantly more powerful then humans (Id say at around the same level as GMC except for some obvious broken open ended powers), however at least I don't need to work to use the setting I enjoy.

[Rater202]

Yeah I still think you are missing the point.

The point he made is that the increse in power among vampire while mortals remain the same invalidates mortals aa a thing and is counterfactual to the fluff.

He ignores the fact that mortals have gotten stronger, not stayed the same and "Lots of planning and numbers" is always how mortals have posed a threat to vampires.

Which means the relative power is exactly the same.

[sktarq]

He ignores the fact that mortals have gotten stronger, not stayed the same and "Lots of planning and numbers" is always how mortals have posed a threat to vampires.

Which means the relative power is exactly the same.

Yeah this is where I think you are totally wrong. Mortals have not gotten stronger. Nope nada totally disagree. They have not totally collapsed to the point where they were in oWoD but much closer. Yeah if you think believe that I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this. In the couple GMC games we played around in mortals challenges that would have significant in nWoD they were speed bumps. And it isn't just disciplines. The ability to co-ordinate high and low humanity vampires different strengths and weaknesses for example is another place where vampire society gains at the expense of mortal society.

[Rater202]

Yeah this is where I think you are totally wrong. Mortals have not gotten stronger. Nope nada totally disagree. They have not totally collapsed to the point where they were in oWoD but much closer. Yeah if you think believe that I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this. In the couple GMC games we played around in mortals challenges that would have significant in nWoD they were speed bumps. And it isn't just disciplines. The ability to co-ordinate high and low humanity vampires different strengths and weaknesses for example is another place where vampire society gains at the expense of mortal society.

Mortals get ten merit dots instead of seven, just like vampires.

The gerneral increase in power among merits affects mortals as well as it helps supernaturals.

There are now mechanical rules for using wooden stakes as weapons.

And there's that merit I previously mentioned that says "I've got a closet/storage locker/garrage full of the weeknesses of as many supernatural creatures, obscure or otherwise, as I can research".

All of the above means that they got stronger just as the other supernaturals have.

That's not even counting the psychic merits that some mortals have, such as "automatically know when there's a/n (Insert Supernatural creature here) present" or "set thing on fire with you brain". Yes, I know that not every mortal has them, but the point is only mortals have them,so it's a power that some mortals have, ut no Vampire ever has.

As Hunter is still a gameline, and in fact has gotten rules for conversion to GMC, and as tier 1 hunters are basically just normal mortals yet they pose a threat to supernaturals that's literally all the proof you need to know that mortals most certainly are not week or irrlevent, which is the counterpoint to Scowling Dragons original claims of mortal irrelevance.

[sktarq]

Mortals get ten merit dots instead of seven, just like vampires.

Again power in terms of being able to effect the game/game world this doesn't help.

The gerneral increase in power among merits affects mortals as well as it helps supernaturals.

again power as a measure of ability to effect. No help.

There are no mechanical rules for using wooden stakes as weapons.

Sooo they got weaker. . . as that was a help to any hurting vampires.

And there's that merit I previously mentioned that says "I've got a closet/storage locker/garrage full of the weeknesses of as many supernatural creatures, obscure or otherwise, as I can research".

I'd say that is little if any benefit as before actually needing it was less likely to be needed.

All of the above means that they got stronger just as the other supernaturals have.

No they have not. Any mortal has all those before they became a vampire and gets an even bigger leap when embraced. An that bigger leap means that it is harder for them to be effected by humans. And that is what weakness is.

That's not even counting the psychic merits that some mortals have, such as "automatically know when there's a/n (Insert Supernatural creature here) present" or "set thing on fire with you brain". Yes, I know that not every mortal has them, but the point is only mortals have them,so it's a power that some mortals have, ut no Vampire ever has.

As Hunter is still a gameline, and in fact has gotten rules for conversion to GMC, and as tier 1 hunters are basically just normal mortals yet they pose a threat to supernaturals that's literally all the proof you need to know that mortals most certainly are not week or irrlevent, which is the counterpoint to Scowling Dragons original claims of mortal irrelevance.

Psychic mortals were a thing before so that doesn't change from nWoD. Also if there are enough Psychic to be considered a significant risk then good luck with homebrewing to social, business, and religious changes to the world that would entail. They are basically a minor splat terms of function and just as rare. So yes they are weak and most times they appear in the game the normal humans ability to effect the course of the story will be so low as to be irrelevant. And hunters, especially tier one hunters are now little more than a speed bump in comparison to what they were before the GMC update. The percentage of humans a vampire needs to concern themselves with has thus shrunk. Hell humanity as a whole was still a threat in oWoD so while I wouldn't mortals as a whole have become irrelevant I'd say that each individual has lost enough that a large percentage of mortals now qualify for that moniker.

[Rater202]

Sooo they got weaker. . . as that was a help to any hurting vampires.

Now! I wrote now, that was a typo that I went back and corrected. V:tR did not have rules for how to stake vampires. BaS:TSC does

Psychic mortals were a thing before so that doesn't change from nWoD. Also if there are enough Psychic to be considered a significant risk then good luck with homebrewing to social, business, and religious changes to the world that would entail. They are basically a minor splat terms of function and just as rare. So yes they are weak and most times they appear in the game the normal humans ability to effect the course of the story will be so low as to be irrelevant. And hunters, especially tier one hunters are now little more than a speed bump in comparison to what they were before the GMC update. The percentage of humans a vampire needs to concern themselves with has thus shrunk. Hell humanity as a whole was still a threat in oWoD so while I wouldn't mortals as a whole have become irrelevant I'd say that each individual has lost enough that a large percentage of mortals now qualify for that moniker.

Psychic mortals are also significantly more powerful now than they were before.

And if Hunters,m especially tier one Hunters, are now much less of a threat to Vampires, then Onyx Path just flushed a line down the toilet in a way that directly contradicts their stated design goals.

And again, mortals can have just as many social ties as supernaturals do, easier in some cases, which means their personal power has increased, while their power to effect the game world has remained consistant.

Or, in otherwords, in no sense have mortals gotten weaker, and in some senses they have gotten stronger.

[Scowling Dragon]

Oh goddamit.

Lets get down to brass tacks:

A Vampire is attacked by two random cops wielding guns.

Which version of Vampire will be a bigger threat to a neonate?

Two random ass Hunters (Not PSYCHICS!) ambush a single neonate vampire walking down the street .

In which version of Vampire will the pose more of a threat (Accounting for the Stake Errata which is a rules accident not an inherent part of the system). However this does go back to making acrobatics more relevant again. So you have a weird effect where everybody has acrobatics because combat is insta kill otherwise.

And if Hunters,m especially tier one Hunters, are now much less of a threat to Vampires, then Onyx Path just flushed a line down the toilet in a way that directly contradicts their stated design goals.

Possibly. Game designers have made worse decisions before. Your intent will not always equal the result.

[Rater202]

The Neonate vampire(s)in that scenario. what are their discipline choices? Deva with a dot or two each in Celerit and Vigor is going to waste two cops in either dition, and that hasn't changed, meanwhile a Ventrue with Domination can't do anything unless he makes eye contact and unless he's got multiple points in resilience a bullet in the head or heart is going to give him a very bad day if the cops actually shoot.

In the second scenario, we also need to know the tactics of the hunters.

We really can't test this with a vacuum scenario, and even if we could, those are never very good.

Even if, in your opinion, mortals have gotten weaker comparatively on paper in practice it all comes out to the same.

[Scowling Dragon]

You dismiss the argument, and dismiss the situation. For the last stinking, smothering, bleeding time, the question is not "Will they win", its "Which is easier"!

If its easier, then Vampires are stronger, if they are stronger, then Humans are weaker relative to them!

You frame the scenarios in binary so then you could fight the easier question.

As an example Vampire with Celerity in GMC not continuously has a boost to Defence rather then having to spend points on them, and thus can spend a point of blood on healing, increased Strength, or some other effect.

A Vampire with Dominate 1 could Mesmerize the opponent to stop fighting or let them go or to even attack their partner, whilst a NWOD vampire could only give a single word command.

[Rater202]

...You're making me a strawman by claiming that I'm making you a straw man. That's a new one.

You're also moving the goal posts.

First it's power levels, mortals are weaker in general. Then it's "Easier"-they're weaker in comparison to vampires. Neither is true.

I'm not going to flat out say your interpretations of fluff and mechanics are wrong, becuase what you do with your table is your business, but it's very clear that nothing's going to change your opinion.

I'm going to say this again. No matter what it looks like on paper, in an actual game scenario, there has been no chance in the relative power-the relative ease, between a mortal and a vampire.

Okay, back to my most recent post, which you misunderstood.: We need details before we can determine which edition has it easier. I gave examples of how different details can affect a situation.

Before we know which is easier, we need to know exactly what kind of vampire's we're talking about. Although in most cases, the edition won;t mean anything.

[Scowling Dragon]

First it's power levels, mortals are weaker in general. Then it's "Easier"-they're weaker in comparison to vampires. Neither is true.

For you using a thesaurus or using any other terminology is "Moving the goalposts".

"This sphere is made of cement you can't kick it to the hole."

"Yes you can, if you have a machine do it for me!"

"I meant you couldn't kick the ball with YOUR foot"

"First its sphere then its ball, man your moving the goalposts all over the place!"

Your right, possibly I should have clarified my statements if statement about weaker mortals meant that I meant they where weaker in relative to vampires. I apologize for that.

And now your outright telling me I misunderstood all of the fluff. Always, even in Classic World of Darkness.

The First Tradition: The Masquerade
This is the most important Tradition, for its observance
protects the race of Caine from discovery by a
mortal world that would unite against them in fear
and hatred. Many Princes and other Kindred authorities
spend a great deal of time using their influence or
wealth to cover up breaches of the Masquerade, for the
greater good of the Damned who may not even understand
the peril in which they place themselves when
they breach it.

Whatever Im out, I leave the conversation to sktarq who is better then me at this.

[sktarq]

Even if, in your opinion, mortals have gotten weaker comparatively on paper in practice it all comes out to the same.

absolutely not true.
This statement is so far off base that I can't take it seriously. It massively effects player choices and how they act. And the idea with say two cops catching out a neonate-it can be seen which more likely to have the vampire come out on top. In GMC fewer things need to line up to have the vampire be massively favored by the dice.

[Rater202]

It massively effects player choices and how they act.

Not everybody makes choices on what's going to be "Best" or "Easiest".

And the idea with say two cops catching out a neonate-it can be seen which more likely to have the vampire come out on top. In GMC fewer things need to line up to have the vampire be massively favored by the dice.

On paper, in a vacuum. In practice it all comes down to chance.

[SiuiS]

Says WHO? In the God Machine Chronicle? I was pretty sure that was something the vampires put up to avoid getting destroyed.

Blood & Smoke: vampire chronicles book.

Let's be honest, the masquerade never truly existed. There has always been government agencies, freelance agencies, corporations, clubs and lineages of people who know the truth, along with other supernaturals and hundreds of millions of victims and complicit folks.
The idea that vampires were somehow super secret because Reasons didn't even hold up to scrutiny when you include magic.

People pretend vampires don't exist because the idea they do is terrifying. For every person who thinks "let's take it to the monsters" is a dozen dozen who just don't want to die and probably don't even want to go on living with such things around them. People forget. People pretend at a primal level, because the truth is terrifying, and the truth will set them free. Vampires who don't pretend they don't exist are vampires who openly maraud. Sure, humanity would eventually win, but you, scowling dragon, are nt humanity. I am not humanity. Rater is not humanity. Odds are, any of us individuals would be lunch or converts.

It's called the tragedy of the commons. Peopl make individually selfish choices – like forgetting supernatural stuff is real and ruthlessly punishing those who would reveal it – and suffer instead of taking the most logically effective route.

Mortals pose just as much threat to Vampires as they always have.

As said before, as the heart and brain are exceptions to the ":Vamps don't give a damn about organs" rule, a bullet to the brain pan is just as much a problem for a vampire as it is for a mortal.

Personally, I'm vetoing the brain mattering.

Note that as far as I know, the only splats that can yawn in the face of a six shotgun salute are mummies, and that's because death is an inconvenience for them. Mages are creamed wheat, Uratha are pretty tore up and likely in death rage, and vampires are likely wrap-around' enough to be limping.

This is all wonderful stuff but this is not how me or my friends interpreted the fluff.

Wait you're basing the mechanical strength of mortals off of how you and some buds assumed the fluff went?

Yeah this is where I think you are totally wrong. Mortals have not gotten stronger.

Bull hockey. Mortals now have the same defense as a nWoD optimized changeling, mobility and action choice options to rival some nWoD gifts and contracts, the damage output of an nWoD expert shooter and the ability to literally flirt their way out of not having the resources for things. They are implicitly supposed to burn willpower like they're ex smokers going through fun or toothpicks and someone with a hobby can lim an extra six dice into their goal no sweat before expendable resources – your average mortal is now, on paper, with abilities that used to be merits I may add (and this literal virtual improvements!) as strong as an unoptimized splat from before.

There is literally no way you can tell me 7 is not a bigger number than 3.

Mortals get ten merit dots instead of seven, just like vampires.

... What? No. Every instance I've seen specifies that splats get 10, mortals get 7.

You dismiss the argument, and dismiss the situation. For the last stinking, smothering, bleeding time, the question is not "Will they win", its "Which is easier"!

And the answer is "depending on how much grain you want to answer in, variable".

Look man, here's the problem. Let's assume I'm on Rater's side. I give you a generic, nonspecific answer. If you don't like that answer I can tell you more specific stuff but then I look like I'm shifting stances and goalposts and stuff in order to "win".

But what if I give you a specific, optimized build off the bat? You'll say oh, that's just specific or you're optimizing your guy but not mine, or something.

Basically, this loaded question requires me to think the worst of you and play mental chess, calculating your likely responses and likes and prejudices, factor them in, and try to use them against you. I don't want to do that. You're angry enough in general, and you're specifically askingn questions that automatically program antagonism into the discussion and then getting mad they are antagonistic.


So let's dual it back. What are you trying to find? You want to know if the new mechanics do what you like enough to make putting up with the stuff you find 'meh', right? What does a CWOD do that you find appealing, and we'll try to tell you in friendly terms if our preferred system would be fun for you. Not better or worse or cooler or anything like that, but if the game is fun. Because that's what matters.

But this loaded question to find a loaded answer about a specific way of looking at specific scenarios for a system that says nothing about the whole system is... Well, buggy by design. Let's all be excellent to each other.

[Rater202]

Odds are, any of us individuals would be lunch or converts.

Personally, I;d prefer Convert: Ordo DRacule's got some sweet stuff in either edition(Is Secrets of the Covenants out yet?)

Personally, I'm vetoing the brain mattering.

Decaitiation is a traditional method of killing a vampire. Since a bullet in the brain kills the same way a snapped neck or a decapitation does(cutting offf, or in this case ending, signlas froim the brain), destroying the brain should be just as viable as removing the head.

Note that as far as I know, the only splats that can yawn in the face of a six shotgun salute are mummies, and that's because death is an inconvenience for them. Mages are creamed wheat, Uratha are pretty tore up and likely in death rage, and vampires are likely wrap-around' enough to be limping.

Well, don't quote me on this, but a Sin-Eater's ability to "catch" a wound in exchange for a point of plasm and a bashing damage at the end of the scene, for each point of damage they would have taken is explicitly except from the normal points/round by power-stat limit(It's in the errata, if you have the original print) a hypothetical Sin-Eater with decent dex and wit's scores, a maxed out Stamina, a full plasm pool,a death mask, and enough experience with his powers for a dot or two of Psyche above 1, hypothetically walk away from a round of shotgun blasts with nothing but a few lethal damage(can't soak all of it), some serious bruising, and a depleted plasm pool.

Not gonna try and make that build, and it's been a while since I cracked WoD core open, so I could be off about the bear minimum needed to withstand a 6 shotgun blasts.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

However by the fluff, it's a little more complicated than "Vampires need Brains"... There's a character in Mekhet: Shadows of the Dark who's an Egyptian mummy, and thus instead of having a brain she has perfumes and such in her head. However, rules-wise, she mentions that if you cut her head off, she would still die, so rules-wise it changes everything. It's just that it's not a physical relationship but a spiritual one.

[Rater202]

However by the fluff, it's a little more complicated than "Vampires need Brains"... There's a character in Mekhet: Shadows of the Dark who's an Egyptian mummy, and thus instead of having a brain she has perfumes and such in her head. However, rules-wise, she mentions that if you cut her head off, she would still die, so rules-wise it changes everything. It's just that it's not a physical relationship but a spiritual one.

Was she embraced post mortem with the "Hollow Meket" rules? becuase that's already violating one Vampire rule(mortals must be embraced while alive) so it viilating an other rule isn't too much of a stretch, and Requiem Core did specifically say they needed the brain, meaning brainless mummy girl was either an exception to the rule or the author didn't pay attention very well.

Also, destroying the perfumes and stuff in her head would probably kill her as well as taking he head off would-so it becomes "Remove the head or destroy the brain( or acting brain)"

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Was she embraced post mortem with the "Hollow Meket" rules? becuase that's already violating one Vampire rule(mortals must be embraced while alive) so it viilating an other rule isn't too much of a stretch, and Requiem Core did specifically say they needed the brain, meaning brainless mummy girl was either an exception to the rule or the author didn't pay attention very well.

Also, destroying the perfumes and stuff in her head would probably kill her as well as taking he head off would-so it becomes "Remove the head or destroy the brain( or acting brain)"

Yes to all those questions.

[SiuiS]

Personally, I;d prefer Convert: Ordo DRacule's got some sweet stuff in either edition(Is Secrets of the Covenants out yet?)

Be fair, you wouldn't know ordo dracul. You would know "terrifying enemy of mankind is is murdering people by turning their loved ones against them, mothers ripping throats out of children and worse besides".

Decaitiation is a traditional method of killing a vampire.

Decapitation is a traditional way of making sure vampires stay dead – and even then it may only have been because a dismembered body isn't a threat.

If you cut off a vampire's head with enough damage to kill it, it's dead. If you cut off a vampires head without enough damage to kill it, you failed to decapitate. Problem solved via prescriptiveness.


And I forget sin eaters exist.

[Citrakayah]

You know, a while back I found a fansite that had a custom setting for cWoD. Was pretty original, mostly because everyone was actually getting along (more or less...). And they had rules for golem characters.

And now I can't find the stupid page. Despite having searched for about an hour.

[Anonymouswizard]

I recently ordered a copy of Blood and Smoke, which should arrive on about a week, in order to run it when my group finishes it's current Shadowrun campaign, and wanted to make sure I understand everything.

As far as my understanding of the masquerade goes, one in ten people know something is out there, and could probably win if they acted. But only one in ten of them know it's vampires, of which one in ten are blood dolls or ghouls (which gives about 10 dolls/ghouls per vamp).

In addition, a physically focused vamp has had a huge boost since 1e (I've read a copy of it thanks to a friend, loved obfuscate 1 in it), and even a BP1 vamp focuses on Celerity, Resilience, and Vigor with a full blood pool can beat down a whole gang, which discourages most of the ~70,000,000 humans who do know ("yes Jeff, I know we could all rush him with kitchen knives and take him down, but what if I'M one of the ones with a caved in head?").

Also, if a Vampire has Auspex 5, can they project while in Torpor? If not, what Disciplines would you need for such a devotion?

How rare are bloodlines? Are 50% of vamps members, or is it closer to 1 in 100? (I'm willing to design disciplines for them, I really want updated Morbus [Auspex, Cachexy, Celerity, Obfuscate] and better Malks [Auspex, Dominate?, Nightmare?, Resilience?] specifically)

And finally, what role are the Strix supposed to have in a chronicle that features them, BBEG, or outside threat (like V:tM Antediluvians)?

[Rater202]

Also, if a Vampire has Auspex 5, can they project while in Torpor? If not, what Disciplines would you need for such a devotion?

1 Discipline devotions are a thing now.

And finally, what role are the Strix supposed to have in a chronicle that features them, BBEG, or outside threat (like V:tM Antediluvians)?

Either or.

[Morty]

Strix are meant to be an "outside context" villain. They're not something vampires deal with regularly, so when they do appear and act, they can cause hideous disarray in the Kindred society. Which means that when they do appear, they tend to take centre stage, but it's not really a requirement.

As far as bloodlines go, my impression has always been that they're uncommon. Certainly less common than 50%. They're also often local in scope.

[Anonymouswizard]

1 Discipline devotions are a thing now.

Thanks. So if a vampire wanted to develop his Auspex, but didn't like Auspex 4, he could just develop devotions that build upon the first three powers instead? (e.g. reading places as if they were objects for auspex)

Strix are meant to be an "outside context" villain. They're not something vampires deal with regularly, so when they do appear and act, they can cause hideous disarray in the Kindred society. Which means that when they do appear, they tend to take centre stage, but it's not really a requirement.

So they aren't meant to be the focus of a chronicle, but are usually the focus of chapters that they appear in? That's probably easier to work with.

What would the strix:vampire ratio be? Similar to the 1:10000 vampire:human ratio? (Which would mean that there are 70-700 strix in the world)

As far as bloodlines go, my impression has always been that they're uncommon. Certainly less common than 50%. They're also often local in scope.

I understand that bloodlines are meant to be uncommon, but I'm not entirely sure if it's meant to be "a bloodline has few members" or "a small proportion of vampires belong to a bloodline", which allow for very different models (if there are 10000 bloodlines around the world that average around 20 members, than about 2/7 vampires have a bloodline, with more being theoretically possible). I lean towards them being very rare (maybe one bloodline per clan in a city the size of London, with a few vamps from "foreign" bloodlines having decided to settle there), but wanted to know if there was a "standard" view of them.

With regards to bloodlines, how common would similar bloodlines developing in different areas be (e.g. an English "Knight" bloodline and a Japanese "Samurai" bloodline)?

[Ravian]

So they aren't meant to be the focus of a chronicle, but are usually the focus of chapters that they appear in? That's probably easier to work with.

What would the strix:vampire ratio be? Similar to the 1:10000 vampire:human ratio? (Which would mean that there are 70-700 strix in the world)

Well strix are even less natural than Vampires, especially given that they breed asexually after they've fed on enough humans or vampires. Also there are cases of them emerging from some other dimension so the precise number would be incredibly hard to track. Of course I don't think that's really necessary. Stix travel primarily in flocks, usually drawn by some coming catastrophe. (Or they bring the Catastrophe with them, no one's quite sure.) The way I see it, most places can be entirely Strix free until a flock comes into town, starting with a few early birds ( ) before eventually you might have anywhere from several dozen to over a hundred in one spot depending on how big the catastrophe is.

Know this, Strix are only as subtle as they want to be. They care nothing for the masquerade or any other rule regular vampires live by. They are nearly impossible to kill. (Even sunlight and fire requires constant exposure to work) and have all the humanity of a draugr with the cunning of regular vampires. A domain beset by Strix is likely to dissolve into the type of places you see in survival horror movies at night, even for the vampires. Of course no one except the vampires really realize the problem started with the owls since the catastrophe itself distracts them from the prologue of nightly murders.

[Morty]

So they aren't meant to be the focus of a chronicle, but are usually the focus of chapters that they appear in? That's probably easier to work with.

What would the strix:vampire ratio be? Similar to the 1:10000 vampire:human ratio? (Which would mean that there are 70-700 strix in the world)

They can totally be the focus of a chronicle. But they don't have to. As far as numbers go, I have no idea.