The SUE Files III: Basically, Exercising Your Cheese-Forging Genes

[Fable Wright]

Maybe I'm giving the other too much credit, but in Ctech I see a game that tried to be something awful, missed, then "compensated" by blithely being something even more disgusting, all without ever being the game it's advertised as being. Somehow that's worse to me than trying to be the most horrifying game ever devised and being bang on the mark with it.

You're giving FATAL too much credit. The writer didn't try to make the game horrifying. See his defense of the game here.

[The Grue]

Maybe I'm giving the other too much credit, but in Ctech I see a game that tried to be something awful, missed, then "compensated" by blithely being something even more disgusting, all without ever being the game it's advertised as being. Somehow that's worse to me than trying to be the most horrifying game ever devised and being bang on the mark with it.

Besides, the sheer variety of nausea-inducing stuff here just stuns me. We've got police states, indefinite detention without trial, torture, every kind of human indecency I can recall, great and small... It's like if the sum of my worst nightmares were in the Mandelbrot set and someone wrote down the resulting fractal. And none of it's necessary, at all, for telling the story it purports to want to tell. Maybe that's it; it might be the worse for how irrelevant it is, like all this horrifying stuff was just the closest shortcut for making it "edgy" and no one saw anything wrong with that.

I don't know. I'm probably wrong. I don't really want to think about it more.

And here I'd been assuming most of the invisible walls and monolothic police state bull**** had been Marty making adjustments to the setting. No wonder he proposed it; the designers were apparently on the same wavelength he was.

[Trekkin]

You're giving FATAL too much credit. The writer didn't try to make the game horrifying. See his defense of the game here.

...

Fair enough.

I don't think I can compare them now. They're outside my ability...

[TuggyNE]

To me, FATAL is one of those unsinkables of generally horrendous ideas. It's not like a general kind of Fantasy Heartbreaker where it has one amazing core idea, and falls apart, or just being laughably unworkable. It's so reprehensible, that it goes so far off the spectrum of sanity that it parodys' itself, and then comes back full circle to be terrible again.

So, it crosses the line not once, nor twice, but thrice? Seems about right.

[georgie_leech]

So, it crosses the line not once, nor twice, but thrice? Seems about right.

I prefer to think of it as sped over the line with a race car, stopped, got out, jumped up and down on the line, dug it up with a shovel, blew it up with 3 sticks of dynamite, reversed over the line in a convenient tank, only to drive over it again with a slightly faster car.

[One Step Two]

I prefer to think of it as sped over the line with a race car, stopped, got out, jumped up and down on the line, dug it up with a shovel, blew it up with 3 sticks of dynamite, reversed over the line in a convenient tank, only to drive over it again with a slightly faster car.

All while holding their [redacted] as they did it.

[The Glyphstone]

All while holding their [redacted] as they did it.

No, they were steering with their [redacted]. Their [censored] was [blanked] in their [blanked].

[Arkhosia]

I prefer to think of it as sped over the line with a race car, stopped, got out, jumped up and down on the line, dug it up with a shovel, blew it up with 3 sticks of dynamite, reversed over the line in a convenient tank, only to drive over it again with a slightly faster car.

No...
They nuked the line, dropped a stack of tanks on it, fed it to Cthulu, nuked it from orbit again, railgunned it, dropped it into the depths of Tartarus, and nuked that from orbit repeatedly

[Deffers]

...

Fair enough.

I don't think I can compare them now. They're outside my ability...

See, the thing with FATAL is gives you an idea about what an eldritch abomination would be like. Sure, it's horrifying beyond compare, but you think you grasp it. Then you break through another layer of knowledge, and the floor falls out from under you and you start feeling the cold seas of inifinity lapping up around your ankles.

Ctech isn't quite THAT bad, ironically.

[comicshorse]

No, they were steering with their [redacted]. Their [censored] was [blanked] in their [blanked].

Ssssh, you'll get us in trouble with the Mods

[Segev]

Hm. If people's assessment of the failings of CTech are right, it sounds almost salvageable. It'd take a reworking on par with a second edition, but revisiting the core concepts and adjusting the horror level of the setting to be more "existential" than "creepy-in-the-greasy-guy-who-leers-at-schoolgirls-sort-of-sense," sounds plausible.

If, in truth, they aimed for horror and missed, then attempted to overcompensate in all the wrong ways, that IS something that can be repaired in a re-write. You'd need to set down some ground rules of how to write a game with a horror element properly and stick to them, though.

[LordChaos13]

Ssssh, you'll get us in trouble with the Mods

No offence but I'm Fairly sure a mod has seen his post and hasnt caused trouble yet

Then again that may be what he want you to think
Drat that There is no mind control citizen, go back to your fun

[Delta]

The most horrible thing about FATAL is that some human being out there thought that this was what an enjoyable game is supposed to look like.

[Sith_Happens]

The most horrible thing about FATAL is that some human being out there thought that this was what an enjoyable game is supposed to look like.

Well, one person has already testified on this thread that there does exist a definition of "enjoyable" which it fits. YMMV.

[Friv]

Hm. If people's assessment of the failings of CTech are right, it sounds almost salvageable. It'd take a reworking on par with a second edition, but revisiting the core concepts and adjusting the horror level of the setting to be more "existential" than "creepy-in-the-greasy-guy-who-leers-at-schoolgirls-sort-of-sense," sounds plausible.

If, in truth, they aimed for horror and missed, then attempted to overcompensate in all the wrong ways, that IS something that can be repaired in a re-write. You'd need to set down some ground rules of how to write a game with a horror element properly and stick to them, though.

Well, a lot of the core stuff would need to be reworked almost from the ground up. It would be less of a second edition, and more of a new game with elements of the old game. And it would require the designers to be able to recognize their own faults.

If I were going to try and make an interesting setting out of Cthulutech, I would probably use the following as a base:

Midway through the 21st century, with pollution on the rise and corporations increasingly taking control of political processes, a team of scientists working for the Ashcroft Foundation successfully tap into another universe, which has been theorized to exist, and which is a source of what seems to be limitless energy. They patent the work, and within a decade power plants across the world are being converted into Dimensional Plants. These plants are fairly easy to construct, and there are no confirmed downsides to their presence. When something goes wrong, the link to the other universe is simply severed, so there's no risk of meltdown, and there's no negative leftovers the way that most power sources have. Pollution begins to go down, the plants are helping give running water and electricity to poor countries, and things are looking good.

Except for a rise across the globe in strange nightmares and brief psychotic breaks. No one notices, at first, that the rise corresponds to the spread of DPs, because its not centered on the areas where the plants are coming online. It's global, and seems pretty evenly distributed.

The truth is that the 'other universe' that the DPs connect to is the body of Azathoth himself, the blind madness. Azathoth is slowly waking up, and his tendrils are spreading across the planet. When he finally wakes, it will be the end of the Earth. The fallout will wipe out the rest of the galaxy, and a chunk of the universe in general. In the mean time, the more of his power that humanity uses, the more psychic toxins are spilling into the world. No one could tell this because we didn't have psychic science worth speaking of.

Far away, the galactic empire of the Migo does have psychic science, and they become aware that humanity is in the process of awakening something that they really, really shouldn't. They launch ships from their nearest colonies to eradicate humanity. Unfortunately, they don't possess faster-than-light travel, and by the time they reach the Solar System the process is too far advanced. Even if every Dimensional Engine is shut down and the Earth is reduced to rubble, Azathoth's attention is focusing on the world, and the empire of the Migo is about to be obliterated. In desperation, the forerunners concoct a plan. They are psychic, and even one of them touching the dreams of Azathoth can eradicate an entire cluster of beings. But humans are different. With sufficient alterations, they could create a counter-dimensional force, capable of lulling Azathoth back to sleep. Of course, to do this, humans must be captured alive, and in vast quantities. The Migo invasion of Earth begins.

Humanity is caught off-guard by the invasion of a vast, merciless alien empire. If you really, really want to keep the Nazzadi, they are what the Migo transform humans into in order to change their psychic natures, and entire regions become Nazzadi hives within days. This is where things go really, really wrong. In their desperation, scientists start toying with the Dimensional Engines, and one corporation, the Chrysalis Corporation, makes contact with a tiny fragment of Yog-Sothoth. For reasons of his own, he gives them a weapon to use against the Migo, which they detonate against Migo forces entrenched in the Himalayas. The entire force is obliterated as the Great Old One Hastur momentarily manifests in the world, and the psychic shockwave of his strike on the Migo hive there breaks the control the Migo have over their Nazzadi slaves. Every Migo on Earth dies.

But Hastur's brief release has really boned everything. Cults of the Great Old Ones begin to spread more rapidly. Strange creatures are seen in the depths of the sea, and transport ships begin to vanish. While humanity struggles to re-absorb their half-transformed Nazzadi brethern, word comes that more Migo ships are arriving, and the Chrysalis Corporation insists that the weapon that stopped them last time could crack the Earth in half if used again. Secretly, Hastur himself may never have left; he's infected Chrysalis, driving tendrils into its board of directors and launching a shadow war against Nyarlathotep, and the corporation is driving itself mad, and taking Earth's militaries with it. Scientists search for new weapons to fight them, and technologies based on other Old Ones begin to appear. This time, when the Migo arrive, humanity can stand its ground - but with every advance, they may be hastening their own destruction.

Where you go from there depends largely on how far along the action - horror line you want the game to be.

[LordChaos13]

Holy BEEP I would play the [redacted] out of that game

*throws money at Friv* Go! Make! Design!

[Forrestfire]

Oh man, that is absolutely amazing.

If there's ever a game on the forum that is started up with that premise, I will have to make a note to try to join it.

[georgie_leech]

snippity

See, that? That is exactly what I meant by effort. Nice one. Plot hooks everywhere!

[Trekkin]

If I were going to do it...that up there would be a better game than how I'd have thought to do it.

[Eldan]

It's been a while since I read my Lovecraft, but...

Weren't the Migo those aliens who liked switching minds and/or brains between bodies? Bevcause that's an alternative explanation for Nazzadi or another invasion force.

The Migo are too alien. They can not normally communicate with us. So, after we fought them to a standstill by unleashing Hastur on them, they change their plans. Instead of capturing and twisting humans physically and psychically, they take some of the bodies and implant Migo memories into them, in order to create a race of intermediate beings as ambassadors between the two races.

I'd also bring in the Elder Beings from Antarctica. They have a nice motivation, too, if you change them a bit from Lovecraft: they just woke up from a few million years of stasis and find the world changed. Now there's two other intelligent races warring over their world. That can't be. Unleash the Shoggoths and clean the planet!

[Friv]

*bows* Thank you, thank you.

Sadly, while I admit there's a small part of me that kind of does what to extrapolate the above into an entire setting, with rules and everything, to do so would be far too brutal a task. Doubly so because it would require stripping out enough Cthulutech that the devs didn't accuse us of stealing their ideas. Which... you know... we kind of would be, a little. And they seem to scan the internet for references to their stuff, so that would be a distinct possibility.

It's been a while since I read my Lovecraft, but...

Weren't the Migo those aliens who liked switching minds and/or brains between bodies? Bevcause that's an alternative explanation for Nazzadi or another invasion force.

The Migo are too alien. They can not normally communicate with us. So, after we fought them to a standstill by unleashing Hastur on them, they change their plans. Instead of capturing and twisting humans physically and psychically, they take some of the bodies and implant Migo memories into them, in order to create a race of intermediate beings as ambassadors between the two races.

That would be a direction to take it, but it would be a direction that removed the Migo as the primary alien antagonist, which if you want the game to be Evangelion Meets Lovecraft is kind of weird. I'd rather have a few alien races, all trying their damndest to destroy us, and we're developing tech based on the Elder Gods to fight them.

I'd also bring in the Elder Beings from Antarctica. They have a nice motivation, too, if you change them a bit from Lovecraft: they just woke up from a few million years of stasis and find the world changed. Now there's two other intelligent races warring over their world. That can't be. Unleash the Shoggoths and clean the planet!

The Elder Beings would actually be a good addition, too! Maybe all the psychic shocks wake up their remnants, and they start claiming Antarctica back. (Or maybe they actually join humanity against building-sized Shoggoths wandering ashore!)

[Deffers]

That idea of a human-Elder Being alliance is totally a possibility. Even in At The Mountains of Madness, Lovecraft mentioned the kinship that the explorers felt for the Elder Beings-- they were a lot like humans, regardless of how different their physiology was. And when H.P. freaking LOVECRAFT is talking about how similar two groups are despite their physical differences, I mean... yeah.

[Trekkin]

And they seem to scan the internet for references to their stuff, so that would be a distinct possibility.

Hey, I look for SUE Files mentions, too. Mostly people finding fault with me for it, but whatever.

I just don't then go whine about how their take on it is badwrongfun.

[Deffers]

People find fault with you for it? Why, exactly? You've been very conscientious not to release CC's name, and you've been sure to keep him out of it as much as possible. You're clearly doing this because you had an awful, awful experience-- and you started writing regularly because of it. Don't see anything wrong with that.

[Trekkin]

People find fault with you for it? Why, exactly? You've been very conscientious not to release CC's name, and you've been sure to keep him out of it as much as possible. You're clearly doing this because you had an awful, awful experience-- and you started writing regularly because of it. Don't see anything wrong with that.

Most of the complaints are:

1. It's too long to read.
2. I didn't do enough to make it a better game.
3. I think too much of myself.

All of which are completely true.

[Deffers]

1. It's only ever too long to read if people don't read all the way through it. People read through your stuff all the time and enjoy the crap out of it, as we can see from the posts going "So I read through all the posts and I'm all caught up-- wow! That was some experience you had!"

2. and 3. are things you have to make up your own mind about-- the way I see it is, sounds like throughout the campaign's history you were plagued by exams, deadlines, and sleep deprivation. Exactly HOW MUCH time were you supposed to spend on making your group hobby enjoyable for everyone, when that's an out-of-the-box expectation? As for thinking too much about yourself-- maybe so! I am DEFINITELY not qualified to give a judgement call on this one.

My guess is, most people think too much about themselves. Not sweating it and making an active effort to be better is about all you can do. Not sure who they want you to think about, though-- CC? Waste of thought. Your fellow players? Seems like you got on well with them. Vast philosophical points about trying to better yourself are nice and all, but in the specific place of your game it looks like you did your best and that your best was certainly what I'd call good enough.

[Friv]

Here's the thing - there are always people that are going to complain, for a variety of reasons. One of the hardest parts of being a writer is looking at people's complaints, and recognizing which ones are absolutely valid, which ones are valid from the point of view of the complainer and yet not something that you need to worry about fixing, and which ones are invalid.

It doesn't take that thin of a skin to start assuming that everything falls into the first category, causing you to give up, or into the third category, causing you to turtle up.

... you know, the more I think about this Cthulutech thing, the more I kind of want to make a sci-fi Cthulu setting that uses the best ideas but doesn't keep any of the core problems of the setting. Rename anything that Cthulutech actually made up (no Tagers, no Chrysalis Corporation), decide on a good system to run it in. Maybe we should start a thread in the Homebrew section...

*EDIT* I have a name idea, but it's a little silly: Techronomicon.

[Sir_Mopalot]

... you know, the more I think about this Cthulutech thing, the more I kind of want to make a sci-fi Cthulu setting that uses the best ideas but doesn't keep any of the core problems of the setting. Rename anything that Cthulutech actually made up (no Tagers, no Chrysalis Corporation), decide on a good system to run it in. Maybe we should start a thread in the Homebrew section...

*EDIT* I have a name idea, but it's a little silly: Techronomicon.

Let's do it! Just a thought, a FATE Core hack seems like a good idea. It's designed to be screwed with this way, and it does story-focused gaming phenomenally, with the only real downside being that you can't do more battletech style miniatures combat with it. And a +1 for the name.

[Trekkin]

with the only real downside being that you can't do more battletech style miniatures combat with it. And a +1 for the name.

+1 from me as well. It sounds like an in-universe document.



And given the history Ctech has had with trying to run tactical wargaming and RPGs in the same system, I can't help but wonder if it's not a downside after all.

[LordChaos13]

if this does get made into a legit system: Sign me up for it

Im suuper interested in Ctech done Right and you have a great fluff base right there.