The Gamer

[Olinser]

Huh, after he talked about Wisdom, I expected him to increase his own, since it is pretty low.

Anyway, before he didn't really seem all that smart despite the high INT. Great at tests with a little studying and good at manipulating Mana, but his actual plans and ideas were not particularly inspired. I wonder if the author will actually show him being ridiculously smart now that his Intelligence is through the roof.

Also, for other people the capacity to choose how you will improve by leveling up while training with Jee-Han must seem amazing.

By the way, he now has more than enough INT to learn that other Chunbumoon super-skill that required 90+ INT. I wonder if he will ask to learn it and if so, will they let him?

You're confusing Intelligence and Wisdom.

Intelligence is essentially IQ - somebody that can grasp complex ideas easily and retain knowledge.

Wisdom is actually knowing what to DO with that information, the ability to think, plan, and act accordingly.

As an analogy from popular culture - Sheldon from Big Bang Theory is the epitome of High Intelligence, Low Wisdom. He has access to an incredible amount of information and can grasp incredibly complex theoretical ideas easily. Yet he can't make a plan to get to work when his roommate can't drive him. He has an incredible amount of information at his fingertips but doesn't know how to actually apply it to everyday life.

[danelsan]

You're confusing Intelligence and Wisdom.

Intelligence is essentially IQ - somebody that can grasp complex ideas easily and retain knowledge.

Wisdom is actually knowing what to DO with that information, the ability to think, plan, and act accordingly.

As an analogy from popular culture - Sheldon from Big Bang Theory is the epitome of High Intelligence, Low Wisdom. He has access to an incredible amount of information and can grasp incredibly complex theoretical ideas easily. Yet he can't make a plan to get to work when his roommate can't drive him. He has an incredible amount of information at his fingertips but doesn't know how to actually apply it to everyday life.

I guess that works as far as translating different aspects of intelligence into game stats goes.

It is kind of weird, because his body and mind now work in such an alien way. For real people things are obviously not all that clearly cut - you can't be explosively fast without some muscular potency, but he could just dump points into agility and be done with it.
Skills learned are usually allow some degree of transference to similar areas, while he would need to develop completely independent "spear mastery" and, say, "staff mastery" despite they having much in terms of transferable muscular memory in real life. Same goes for his mental capacities. It can get very weird if one thinks about it.

Which makes me wonder, since there are only a few stats, if there are things he can't improve with his ability. There is no Charisma or similar stat in his Gamer ability, for instance. How far can he develop social things? His danger sense developed through social interaction, but is there some skill or stat he could improve that would make him more suave (or at least less flustered around Sae Young)?

My guess is that, even if he can't put points in a core stat to get better at something, practice or some particular insight could always generate a skill to help him in just about any situation. He develop a skill to help at doing chores, so if he had to make a lot of presentations or something he could probably get an Oratory skill. Which, considering he is a teenager, leaves one wondering why he isn't well on his way to a high level skill in "pleasuring himself"...

[Flickerdart]

Yet he can't make a plan to get to work when his roommate can't drive him. He has an incredible amount of information at his fingertips but doesn't know how to actually apply it to everyday life.

I don't know about can't - it's not like he doesn't know there's a bus, it's that he doesn't want to take it due to personal boundary issues.

Anyway, Jee Han is dumb but appropriately so. As a high-Intelligence gamer, he has seized on one strategy (maxing out a single stat and basing everything on it) that works best for his improvement cycle of rapid, limited returns. Raising Wisdom would make sense if levels came slowly but gave more points (so that he could invest enough Wisdom at once to gain a concrete benefit) but it currently feels more effective for him to get an immediate return out of a handful of Intelligence points than slowly dripping points into Wisdom until something happens. Of course, if he were wiser, he would realize that a gradual pay-off from boosting Wisdom might be a better long-term plan, but he doesn't have the Wisdom to see that.

[Math_Mage]

It's rather presumptuous to attribute Jee-Han's failure to raise WIS to his lack of WIS when it's not even clear that it would be wiser to raise his WIS, or that Jee-Han's strategy of maxing Int for now is "limited" in any particular way.

[danelsan]

I understand why the author wouldn't want to have it established, but if I were Jee Han, I'd do my best to figure out what is my level limit, if any.

[Aquillion]

We don't even know what Wis does.

And there are a lot of systems where putting everything in one stat (at least until you hit a cap) is straight-up the only long-term build that makes any sense, especially for casters. Most of the Korean MMoRPGs I've played were like that, too.

Also, it's not clear that mental stats have quite that much of a real-world impact. His massive intelligence hasn't drastically changed his personality so far, say, and he's not exactly coming across as someone five times as smart as the people around him.

[Anteros]

Considering that literally every other character we've seen has an even spread of stats, I don't think min-maxing is the only viable option.

[sum1won]

We don't even know what Wis does.

And there are a lot of systems where putting everything in one stat (at least until you hit a cap) is straight-up the only long-term build that makes any sense, especially for casters. Most of the Korean MMoRPGs I've played were like that, too.

Also, it's not clear that mental stats have quite that much of a real-world impact. His massive intelligence hasn't drastically changed his personality so far, say, and he's not exactly coming across as someone five times as smart as the people around him.

Honestly, that might be a limit of the author. Writing superintelligent characters is not that easy to do, as it invariably means writing beyond one's own skills. Authors try to get around this in various ways such as increasing vocabulary, but often fail to change the character's judgment or problem-solving skills in meaningful ways without contrived puzzles. (Sherlock Holmes probably solved this problem the best)

[Dragoa]

Honestly, that might be a limit of the author. Writing superintelligent characters is not that easy to do, as it invariably means writing beyond one's own skills. Authors try to get around this in various ways such as increasing vocabulary, but often fail to change the character's judgment or problem-solving skills in meaningful ways without contrived puzzles. (Sherlock Holmes probably solved this problem the best)

Ya, likely this. I actually kind of appreciate that the author hasn't tried to make him sound super smart, because I find you can really easily tell when someone is trying to write up from their knowledge base since everything is very shallow and superficial without any real understanding, since likely it was just 'open thesaurus, find big word, profit!'. But, he has shown that he doesn't really need to study that much to actually learn anything and do presumably well in school, so that's being reflected correctly.

I still feel like he would do well to put in some points into Wis, since it seems like it'd help his ability to create new and interesting ways of utilizing his mana, which right now is at a useful, but very rudimentary point for no discernible reason. Why not put some spikes on the binding rope, make it do some damage while it ties them up. It just seems like he has a very unidirectional focus, which may be a result of super high int vastly overshadowing low wis giving him tunnel vision.

[Olinser]

Considering that literally every other character we've seen has an even spread of stats, I don't think min-maxing is the only viable option.

No, 'literally' every other character we have seen did NOT have an even spread of stats. In fact, not a single one of them does.

Sun-Il's in particular had his Vitality significantly higher than any of his other stats.

All other characters we have seen stat sheets of had significantly higher physical stats, with the exception of the Black Summoner Daughter, who had significantly higher Int/Wis (and Luck, which I thought was odd). All physical characters had barely average stats for the mental end. We have yet to see a single character that is actually balanced all the way around.

[Olinser]

Ya, likely this. I actually kind of appreciate that the author hasn't tried to make him sound super smart, because I find you can really easily tell when someone is trying to write up from their knowledge base since everything is very shallow and superficial without any real understanding, since likely it was just 'open thesaurus, find big word, profit!'. But, he has shown that he doesn't really need to study that much to actually learn anything and do presumably well in school, so that's being reflected correctly.

I still feel like he would do well to put in some points into Wis, since it seems like it'd help his ability to create new and interesting ways of utilizing his mana, which right now is at a useful, but very rudimentary point for no discernible reason. Why not put some spikes on the binding rope, make it do some damage while it ties them up. It just seems like he has a very unidirectional focus, which may be a result of super high int vastly overshadowing low wis giving him tunnel vision.

It's more that he doesn't really have a concrete goal.

Most games have some kind of structure to nudge you along the storyline and build your character.

Jee-Han is, for all intents and purposes, in a sandbox RPG where he can do whatever he wants.

Right now all he really has is the generic goal of 'get stronger'. So he's not particularly focused on one area and trying to simply get stronger overall.

What he needs is a concrete goal like, "Defeat X opponent", or "learn X technique".

[Aquillion]

No, 'literally' every other character we have seen did NOT have an even spread of stats. In fact, not a single one of them does.

Sun-Il's in particular had his Vitality significantly higher than any of his other stats.

All other characters we have seen stat sheets of had significantly higher physical stats, with the exception of the Black Summoner Daughter, who had significantly higher Int/Wis (and Luck, which I thought was odd). All physical characters had barely average stats for the mental end. We have yet to see a single character that is actually balanced all the way around.

They do tend to spread across multiple stats more than the main character, though, yes.

On the other hand, they're not Gamers. Most people don't have the option to put everything into one stat; and most people don't have abilities that benefit from it. A normal real-world martial artist needs all physical stats to be decent (even putting aside the fact that raising speed and strength at the same time doesn't necessarily make sense without the Gamer ability).

But the main character is different, since his special abilities are game-related and therefore often focused on one stat, and since he can learn and create new ones fairly easily. Unlike his martial-arts friends, he can make defensive, offensive, and utility powers that all focus entirely on one ability, so it makes sense for him to go all-in on that ability.

Or another way of looking at it -- people are talking about how he should raise this or that because of the "base" benefit of the stat everyone gets (strength making you stronger, wisdom making you wiser, etc.) That's true for other characters (though remember, they have limited if any control over their stats unless they party with him.) But for him, the benefits from his unique Gamer skills significantly outweigh that.

[Math_Mage]

Considering that literally every other character we've seen has an even spread of stats, I don't think min-maxing is the only viable option.

Considering that literally every other character we've seen had an unusual spike or two in their stats, I question your premise. Regardless, the question was not whether maxing one stat is the only viable option, but whether it's an unwise option.

I still feel like he would do well to put in some points into Wis, since it seems like it'd help his ability to create new and interesting ways of utilizing his mana, which right now is at a useful, but very rudimentary point for no discernible reason. Why not put some spikes on the binding rope, make it do some damage while it ties them up. It just seems like he has a very unidirectional focus, which may be a result of super high int vastly overshadowing low wis giving him tunnel vision.

He just hasn't been experimenting recently. I blame narrative pacing more than misallocated stats for this.

It's more that he doesn't really have a concrete goal.

Most games have some kind of structure to nudge you along the storyline and build your character.

Jee-Han is, for all intents and purposes, in a sandbox RPG where he can do whatever he wants.

Right now all he really has is the generic goal of 'get stronger'. So he's not particularly focused on one area and trying to simply get stronger overall.

What he needs is a concrete goal like, "Defeat X opponent", or "learn X technique".

Huh? Jee-Han has focused very narrowly on getting stronger in certain specific ways, which is what Dragoa was complaining about. If anything, he needs the narrative to kick him into broader exploration.

[sum1won]

They do tend to spread across multiple stats more than the main character, though, yes.

On the other hand, they're not Gamers. Most people don't have the option to put everything into one stat; and most people don't have abilities that benefit from it. A normal real-world martial artist needs all physical stats to be decent (even putting aside the fact that raising speed and strength at the same time doesn't necessarily make sense without the Gamer ability).

It makes great sense. Endurance and strength don't go together as well, but you need to build muscle to move quickly - the idea that muscle slows you down is a fallacious idea dating back to when most weight training was built around bodybuilding - muscles for the sake of size, not necessarily muscles that are coordinated or even especially strong. An overdeveloped upperbody will slow down your sprinting, sure - but when I started weight training my speed and strength both improved, because you use muscles for both. It's surprisingly difficult to get to the point where you are putting on enough muscle that it actually slows you down, if you have a good program.

[Aquillion]

It makes great sense. Endurance and strength don't go together as well, but you need to build muscle to move quickly - the idea that muscle slows you down is a fallacious idea dating back to when most weight training was built around bodybuilding - muscles for the sake of size, not necessarily muscles that are coordinated or even especially strong. An overdeveloped upperbody will slow down your sprinting, sure - but when I started weight training my speed and strength both improved, because you use muscles for both. It's surprisingly difficult to get to the point where you are putting on enough muscle that it actually slows you down, if you have a good program.

Oops, I mistyped. I meant to say that raising speed and strength separately doesn't make sense, yeah, so most martial artists would simply have to have both. Whereas Jee-Han could presumably focus on just one if he wanted to, because his power lets him act like a videogame character and that's something videogame characters can do.

Same for most other stats. There are naturally high-int, low-wis people out there, but in general most of the things you'd do to raise one (eg. studying and mental exercise) would probably end up raising both. Being able to just say "I'm going to put everything in intelligence" is unique to him.

[Anteros]

Considering that literally every other character we've seen had an unusual spike or two in their stats, I question your premise. Regardless, the question was not whether maxing one stat is the only viable option, but whether it's an unwise option.

The assertion I was responding to was exactly

And there are a lot of systems where putting everything in one stat (at least until you hit a cap) is straight-up the only long-term build that makes any sense

I wasn't responding to anything else.

Also, yes...most characters have an area that they focus on, such as physical abilities. They are all much more rounded than our main character though. Considering that everyone else manages to split their stat gains up and still be effective, it's fairly obvious that completely consolidating your stat points into one thing is not the only way to be effective.

I'm sure it will be fine, because it wouldn't make a very good story for the main character to completely ruin his build and suck forever...but there are probably plenty of other ways to build an effective character as well.

[Math_Mage]

The assertion I was responding to was exactly

I wasn't responding to anything else.

Also, yes...most characters have an area that they focus on, such as physical abilities. They are all much more rounded than our main character though. Considering that everyone else manages to split their stat gains up and still be effective, it's fairly obvious that completely consolidating your stat points into one thing is not the only way to be effective.

I'm sure it will be fine, because it wouldn't make a very good story for the main character to completely ruin his build and suck forever...but there are probably plenty of other ways to build an effective character as well.

Ah. I was sourcing the discussion to Flickerdart's comments.

However, as has been noted, other characters cannot train or choose to be as unequally distributed as our main character, so it's not really possible to extrapolate from what their stat distributions are to what his stat allocation should be.

(Of course, since we don't know what his stats should be optimized for, this is a largely futile discussion.)

[Anteros]

(Of course, since we don't know what his stats should be optimized for, this is a largely futile discussion.)

Sure we do. He should clearly abuse his ability to make money and pick up women in order to live a life of hedonism.

[Math_Mage]

He shoulda maxed luck for the Teela Brown gene. Come on, hasn't he read Ringworld?

[danelsan]

I don't know how likely it is given that all their stats are integers, but perhaps at least part of the reason the Chunbumoon people have such high stats for their level is that Jee Han's ability is not showing base stats, but rather stats augmented by passive techniques like the stuff he learned from the skillbook?

When he looks up his own stats he sees the final value, but also the base value and all bonuses that lead to that final value. It is possible that he can only see the final value in others, with no indication that one or more passive techniques are increasing those values. After all, with all the bonuses doesn't he also have more stat points than his level would indicate?

Of course, in the end it amounts to the same thing: they have high stats for their level because of their training. That would just specify better what that means in regards to The Gamer ability.

As a side note, if he were not so mono-focused on INT, looking for more techniques that increased multiple stats like what he already knows would likely be a good idea. But due to his focus...well, if he can get his hands on it without much trouble, sure. more stats is always good. Now, if he can find something that increases all his stats by an amount that is keyed to INT, that would be better. And then a skill that increases INT based on the sum of the other stats, for cheesy synergy XD

EDIT: By the way, I wonder if his idea for "griding and getting super strong in one go" involves taking that massive INT and Mana, make a super attack skill that allows him to pump like, 2000 Mana into it, and use it to destroy bosses way higher than his own level...

[Flickerdart]

So far we haven't seen Jee Han have any issue fighting bosses above his level. He has, however, had difficulty actually finding any bosses at all. Until he levels up his own dungeon creation skill, he's not grinding any OP bosses.

[Math_Mage]

Well, although he doesn't have luck finding bosses, strong enemies may find him. His aim may be to create a skill that can overpower these enemies in one burst. Probably wouldn't work at first, though, even if he managed to develop it.

[Dragoa]

New comic is up, and that's actually a fairly clever idea, and time for a super grinding montage again. Wonder if he'll get a bunch of new physical skills from all of this.

[danelsan]

Wow, 12 points in a few hours? His ability is even cheesier than I expected. Of course, it is likely that he'll have diminishing returns soon - he mentioned that his INT would be hard to grind because it is already so high, while his physicals were still baseline. On the other hand the training program of the Chunbumoon is probably a lot more intense than the running he did, so that will balance things out to some extent. He will probably reach pretty high physical stats in a short period.

That said, I hope the author won't occupy too many chapters with that training. A few montages with an explanation and updated stats here and there, then back to advancing the plot. Or better yet: advance the plot while the training is an ongoing thing in the background with a some focus scenes and stat updates here and there.

[Math_Mage]

Meh. So it was just that? Well, hopefully we get to watch Sun-Il and Sae-Young kick the crap out of him for a bit at least.

[Anteros]

The author will have to find a way to give the other characters a power boost if he wants this to continue for much longer.

Also, as a game character he shouldn't get any type of bonus for running. Game characters run all the time and never get tired.

[Math_Mage]

The author will have to find a way to give the other characters a power boost if he wants this to continue for much longer.

Also, as a game character he shouldn't get any type of bonus for running. Game characters run all the time and never get tired.

Well, it's established that there's a great many rungs on the ladder above Jee-Han's position. And the other characters have been pursuing their own training all this time.

[Anteros]

That's true, but he's currently progressing far, far faster than them. He raised a stat 12 points with only a few hours of jogging. At his current pace he'll leave them far behind unless something curtails his growth, or something increases theirs.

[Olinser]

Well, it's established that there's a great many rungs on the ladder above Jee-Han's position. And the other characters have been pursuing their own training all this time.

Pretty much.

Jee-Han is very much at the bottom.

If we were to go off what the Loli and Wolf said, then he's basically somewhere around D or E rank.

Logical progression for that is:

The Loli/Wolf said they could handle anybody below A rank, meaning they are most likely B rank themselves. They easily defeated the armor/mage duo, and said they were F class. While they were trash talking them a bit, that still means that they were probably D or E class at best.

And Jee-Han couldn't even put a scratch on them. Which put him in probably E or F class at the time. Even if he leveled up a bit and got stronger, I highly doubt he's gotten to even C class. Which still puts him at almost certainly D rank, which is very low compared to the Abyss powerhouses in terms of total strength.

HOWEVER, his ability means that since he has concentrated all of his power in a very confined area, it means his abilities in that area are extremely powerful compared to his overall level.

So it wouldn't be surprising if he could exploit that to beat somebody significantly above his level.

[Math_Mage]

Turn that around, though--Jee-Han hasn't gotten that much more powerful since he faced those clowns, and he couldn't do anything to them despite your argument that his specialization makes him able to fight above his weight (which doesn't make sense to me--wouldn't that be factored into the class system?). So Jee-Han started at the low end of F class, and probably hasn't even gotten to E class yet, for all he has Gnome.