Warhammer and WH40K RPGs II: Burning Witches, Heretics, and Fate

[Tome]

My personal opinion on BC is that it's fun as a concept, but I don't like the classless system, and it's less fun to GM than Dark Heresy because you can't tempt the players to fall to chaos, since they already have.

This. I detest the way they set up the advances. It forces players to be the most utterly stereotypical worshippers of their gods possible - every tzeentch worshipper is a psyker, every Khorne worshipper is a melee berserker, etc. and vice versa too. Every powerful pysker has to worship Tzeentch, every melee fighter has to worship khorne, every social manipulator has to worship Slaanesh etc.

Where are the Tzeentchian manipulators, the Khornate engineers, the Nurglite doctors? They're in the fluff, but the system punishes you for trying to build these characters - if you even can, what with how failing to plan your xp expenditure can easily have your character aligned to the wrong god, no matter how fervently they worship.

Given a more sensible system for advancement and aligning to a god though, it's great.

[dupersudi]

you mean that you're Team Evil?

No just the Aligned/unaligned thing. The mechanics are rather annoying and in my opinion you should be able to start aligned to a particular god.

[LeSwordfish]

This is my issue with the aptitudes system in Only War, too- it slots you into a role, and instead of high-grade choices being later on in the character tree, they just cost more. Working towards a cool character goal is quicker now, but you don't get any progression while you're doing it.

[Tychris1]

This. I detest the way they set up the advances. It forces players to be the most utterly stereotypical worshippers of their gods possible - every tzeentch worshipper is a psyker, every Khorne worshipper is a melee berserker, etc. and vice versa too. Every powerful pysker has to worship Tzeentch, every melee fighter has to worship khorne, every social manipulator has to worship Slaanesh etc.

Where are the Tzeentchian manipulators, the Khornate engineers, the Nurglite doctors? They're in the fluff, but the system punishes you for trying to build these characters - if you even can, what with how failing to plan your xp expenditure can easily have your character aligned to the wrong god, no matter how fervently they worship.

Given a more sensible system for advancement and aligning to a god though, it's great.

Ahem.

Well, actually that's not really true. Tech-Use and all the other technology talents are unaligned, which don't count against the "5 more then other gods" alignment system. So you could pick up 5 Khorne advances and then just buy a bunch of unaligned advances and still be Khornate. Also, Medicae and Master Chirugeon are both Nurgle advancements, so Nurgle Doctors exist aswell. Tzeentch may have the majority of psyker talents, but he doesn't have all of them, and he lacks the most important Psyker talent there is, that being Psy Rating, thus every Psyker advances in Psy rating equally.

As for Tzeentchian manipulators, I've managed to actually play one, it's just merely less overt then the Slaanesh manipulators (As they have Decieve and Charm as skills, making them more "Brute Force" manipulation). Tzeentch has Forbidden Lore, Scrutiny, and a few other mind related talents (Such as Foresight, Wisdom of the Ancients, Infused Knowledge, and Total Recall) meaning that Tzeentchian characters are information brokers and capable of seeing through B.S. By collecting information on targets, Tzeentchian characters can blackmail them with dirty information, sense when they're going to get backstabbed, and create information webs that can be used to plot and scheme at your hearts delight. As the saying goes, Knowledge is power.

Oh, and not every melee fighter has to worship Khorne. Slaanesh has some great close combat skills built into it. Preternatural Speed lets you get into combat faster alongside Sprint, and with Hard Target opponents won't be able to hit not to mention your jacked up dodge skill. Not to mention such talents as Rapid Reaction and Lightning Reflexes, plus crippling strike works in melee, Assassin Strike helps to move around between targets and avoid nasty threats, and both of the Called Shot melee talents are owned by Slaanesh. Ontop of this, Unaligned owns a couple of close combat talents aswell, such as Two Weapon Wielder (A great talent in its own right, especially when paired with Ambidextrous [also unaligned]), Bladedancer, Disarm, Weapon Skill advancements, Double Team, Counter attack, Step Aside, and Take Down. Nurgle worshippers get access to Khorne and Unaligned talents/skills without penalty, Slaanesh characters have their own combat specialty, Tzeentch melee characters are a bit harder to make admittedly but they are Allied to Unaligned/Slaanesh so it still isn't too bad for them either.

[shadow_archmagi]

I haven't gotten to try BC yet because my party isn't big on Team Evil, but one of the frequent complaints I've had is the difficulty of balancing marines and humans in the same party.

[Elurindel]

This. I detest the way they set up the advances. It forces players to be the most utterly stereotypical worshippers of their gods possible - every tzeentch worshipper is a psyker, every Khorne worshipper is a melee berserker, etc. and vice versa too. Every powerful pysker has to worship Tzeentch, every melee fighter has to worship khorne, every social manipulator has to worship Slaanesh etc.

Where are the Tzeentchian manipulators, the Khornate engineers, the Nurglite doctors? They're in the fluff, but the system punishes you for trying to build these characters - if you even can, what with how failing to plan your xp expenditure can easily have your character aligned to the wrong god, no matter how fervently they worship.

Given a more sensible system for advancement and aligning to a god though, it's great.

I do admit that you need to plan your character a bit, but I've found ti fairly easy to build various characters that don't fit the stereotypes. I kind of make a point of it, actually. There is a Tzeentchian manipulator as an NPC in Tome of Fate, and I write them that way regularly. Khorne engineers would be easy to make too, provided you started out with the Lores and then aligned to Khorne afterwards. And now Tome of Decay has a whole Archetype for doctors.

I like the classless system, because it gives you the freedom to play the character you want to play. With Dark Heresy, for instance, a lot of characters lack basic survival skills like Awareness and Dodge.

As for balancing Humans and Marines, I almost invariably play Humans. The extra Exp and the right gear can easily make a mockery of Marines if done right. But it does require the players with the right mindset.

Also, you needn't play a team of baby-eating psychopaths. Sometimes you're just independents who got swept up in freedom from the Imperium, and didn't realise the blessings you received from the Dark Gods were from them until it's too late. The Imperium does foster ignorance as a habit, after all.

[shadow_archmagi]

I haven't actually TRIED the classless systems yet, but it doesn't seem like it'd be that big of a change. I did come really close to running DH2 though, going so far as to roll up a beta character. It does seem sorta surreal that the classless system evokes so much bile though; isn't it functionally very similar to the old class-based system in terms of limitations?

BEFORE:
"I like gishes, and my character's dream is to someday become a Librarian! I'd like to play a melee psyker!"
"Okay, but the Psyker has expensive STR and WS and doesn't get many melee talents."
"Can just pay double for the melee talents via Elite Advances, right?"
"Yeah sure"

AFTER:
"I made a Psyker! He's got PSY, BRAIN, and WIZARD as his favored areas!"

"Your favored areas mean that STR and melee talents will all cost twice as much, since PUNCHING doesn't overlap with BRAIN or WIZARD."

I guess the old system of alternate ranks allowed for D&D 3.5 style dip-fu, so if you really wanted a melee psyker you could do stuff like "Well, I replaced Starting Adept with Hive Adept to represent my character's gang past, so that gives Knife Fighting as a starting talent and makes melee advances cheap, and then after two more levels of vanilla psyker I went with Library-Wizard which grants any two free lore skills, so I took Lore (Punching), and then..."

[Tychris1]

Well, melee psykers in Black Crusade can always take Weapon Skill advancements at the "medium" cost, plus what I said earlier about unaligned/slaaneshi combat talents making "Gish" characters viable.

[Kris Strife]

Is there a way to get permanent Unnatural Traits in Rogue Trader as a human without mutations? Via talents or augments or something?

[Destro_Yersul]

Transgenic Grafting! Also, certain augmetics.

[Grim Portent]

To expand on Destro's answer:

Best Craftsmanship Synthmuscle implants give Unnatural Strength x2 and a -10 to all agility tests.

Then there is my favorite thing in the game; Transgenic Grafts from Radical's Handbook let you graft xeno parts into yourself to gain a talent or trait the xeno has. Like Unnatural Speed from a Genestealer, or Unnatural Strength from a Carnosaur. This is risky however, though a highly skilled medic/Forbidden Lore (Xenos) part member can make it very safe.

[dupersudi]

Cortex Implants too. Unnatural Int x2 if they are of Good quality.

[Kris Strife]

What about Unnatural Toughness?

[Grim Portent]

The only way to get Unnatural Toughness would be to Transgenic Graft it onto the character from an alien that has it I think. Carnosaurs and Orks are both good targets and aren't too hard to kill.

[Kir]

Anywhoo, has anyone got experience with DH's Adeptus Sororitas? I was given the GM go ahead to roll one if my character dies. What's best about them? Worst? are alternate ranks worth it? What kind of Gear do you need?

My DM said: don't pick one, theyre op. i think they start with tabletop equipment, which means you get power armor and a bolter on a dark heresy character. All that stuff about not putting 'rines with humans, only sisters have human base stats instead. Could work, but you're close to invulnerable to everything that would be appropriate to your teammates, and everything that hurts you reliably kills your teammates outright.

[The Glyphstone]

My DM said: don't pick one, theyre op. i think they start with tabletop equipment, which means you get power armor and a bolter on a dark heresy character. All that stuff about not putting 'rines with humans, only sisters have human base stats instead. Could work, but you're close to invulnerable to everything that would be appropriate to your teammates, and everything that hurts you reliably kills your teammates outright.

If I remember right, there are two versions of the Battle Sister career path. One is the ridiculously OP imbalance you describe, the other is more balanced for normal Acolytes. I can't remember which is which though.

[aberratio ictus]

They start neither with a power armour nor with a bolter. They get a laspistol and a carapace chest plate.

Yet, they are quite powerful, even the book admits as much, but not overwhelmingly so.

Still, it might not sit well with the other players if you rolled a sororita, so you might want to check with them first, too.

[flare'90]

They start neither with a power armour nor with a bolter. They get a laspistol and a carapace chest plate.

Yet, they are quite powerful, even the book admits as much, but not overwhelmingly so.

Still, it might not sit well with the other players if you rolled a sororita, so you might want to check with them first, too.

A Battle Sister from Blood of Martyrs starts indeed with a bolter (or a bolt pistol and a sword, with GM permission), power armor (without helmet) and shield robe. They do not get an income, but they can requisition gear based on Rank (like a Space Marine in this respect). This is the one that comes with a disclaimer, telling that it may be too powerful and focused on combat.

An Adepta Sororitas from The Inquisitor Handbook starts with an equipment more in line with the other careers: a las pistol, a club (or flail or staff), carapace chest plate and mesh cowl (or feudal plate). This career is more generic and flexible than the Battle Sister, eve in less powerful in direct combat (and also it doesn't start with freaking power armor and bolter).

The Adepta Soriritas is meant to represent a novice of the organization, and later has to choose an order (Dialogous, Hospitaller or Militant), while a Battle Sister is a memeber of an Order Militant from start to finish. They are still part of the same overarching organization, but the focus is different.

[aberratio ictus]

TimeWizard's DM seems to have allowed him to build a Adepta Sororita, not a Battle Sister. Nevertheless, the Adepta Sororita comes with a disclaimer, too, albeit probably a shorter one: "The Sororitas Career is a powerful option (and it is unashamedly so)"

I must admit I don't own Blood of Martyrs, so I just assumed he meant the Sororitas from the Inquisitor's handbook.
Which he very likely did.

[Prince Raven]

I'd still avoid it, make an IG or Assassin character instead if you want to go "battle maiden". Adepta Sororitas are more powerful than any of the base classes at low levels, and at medium to high level only Psykers and Tech-Priests outshine them. Roleplaying them accurately is also very likely to lead to party conflict, especially if there is a Psyker and/or Scum in the group.

[Tome]

I'd still avoid it, make an IG or Assassin character instead if you want to go "battle maiden". Adepta Sororitas are more powerful than any of the base classes at low levels, and at medium to high level only Psykers and Tech-Priests outshine them. Roleplaying them accurately is also very likely to lead to party conflict, especially if there is a Psyker and/or Scum in the group.

I'm really not seeing this.

Their starting package has some okay armour and they get priest level income, but that's nothing really exceptional. They have a decent selection of skills, but I'm not seeing anything broken. Some social stuff, a few decent lores. I guess they get Dodge as fast as an assassin does. Not really any notable talents until they branch out into their order at rank 4 either, though they are getting access to some of the better talents at that point. Nothing better than what other careers get for their own thing, though I suppose that they can be as good as other careers in multiple areas (assuming you rolled stupidly well for characteristics).

Only thing it could be at the start is Pure Faith, I can see some folks finding their ability to spend Fate points to negate fear/insanity/corruption for a scene whilst also getting immunity to Daemonic Presence to be pretty potent. The rest of the faith talents are pretty strong too. Still, using those abilities is going to drain a Sororitas of her Fate points very quickly, and she kind of needs to use them to negate corruption or else she looses access to her faith talents completely.

They're strong, yeah, but nothing so much I'd say don't play them. There's nothing to them that says they're gonna be more overpowered than the average psyker or tech priest at worst, and they could easily end around the level of 'mini-Adept who has some social skills and knows which way to point her gun'.

I've played one, and never really found many problems with roleplaying them either. Just, you know, apply the same rules about not being a douche when playing a paladin with rogues in the party and you'll be fine.

[shadow_archmagi]

So I joined a Deathwatch game.

I'm still having some trouble wrapping my head around some of the DW-specific mechanics.

1. Demeanor. Demeanor is... how you roleplay your character? You have a chapter demeanor and a personal demeanor, and if you're roleplaying well, you can call Demeanor once per session, which works exactly like a fate point.

2. Cohesion. Cohesion is single score that the entire squad shares, based on the mission leader. So if your mission leader is an ultramarine with 80 Fel and solid gold pants, you start with like, 12 Cohesion.

Anyone in the squad can spend cohesion to activate Squad abilities, which are fantastic. Here's where things get hazy, because the book mentions that "The cost is only paid once," but I'm not sure what that refers to. As I understand it, some Squad abilities are always-on things, that you pay cohesion for once and then you keep them until you activate a new one, sort of like Tome of Battle stances, and once it's been "Bought" you can switch in and out of it freely.

Otherwise, an ability lasts for either the duration of a combat and can be used without spending cohesion again during that combat, *or* has a different duration and must be paid for each time. I'm unclear what distinguishes these two.

Chapter abilities are awesome, but only apply to chapter members, unless you're the squad leader or a tactical marine who passes a test. Thus, if a squad has an Ultramarine, four salamanders, and is lead by a black templar, and the ultramarine tries to Lead By Example, only he will receive bonuses. If a Salamander uses Flames of Salamander (I've forgotten all the other chapter's abilities) then those four guys will benefit, and nobody else. If the black templar tries to use... black... Templar angry-face, everyone will benefit from it, because he's the leader.

I have no idea how the above rule works with the Ultramarine's Rallying Cry, since it just gives free cohesion points, but cohesion is measured for a squad. So what exactly does it mean to have an ability only boost part of the squad, if that ability by definition provides a resource the whole squad can use?

[Elurindel]

So I joined a Deathwatch game.

I'm still having some trouble wrapping my head around some of the DW-specific mechanics.

1. Demeanor. Demeanor is... how you roleplay your character? You have a chapter demeanor and a personal demeanor, and if you're roleplaying well, you can call Demeanor once per session, which works exactly like a fate point.

2. Cohesion. Cohesion is single score that the entire squad shares, based on the mission leader. So if your mission leader is an ultramarine with 80 Fel and solid gold pants, you start with like, 12 Cohesion.

Anyone in the squad can spend cohesion to activate Squad abilities, which are fantastic. Here's where things get hazy, because the book mentions that "The cost is only paid once," but I'm not sure what that refers to. As I understand it, some Squad abilities are always-on things, that you pay cohesion for once and then you keep them until you activate a new one, sort of like Tome of Battle stances, and once it's been "Bought" you can switch in and out of it freely.

Otherwise, an ability lasts for either the duration of a combat and can be used without spending cohesion again during that combat, *or* has a different duration and must be paid for each time. I'm unclear what distinguishes these two.

Chapter abilities are awesome, but only apply to chapter members, unless you're the squad leader or a tactical marine who passes a test. Thus, if a squad has an Ultramarine, four salamanders, and is lead by a black templar, and the ultramarine tries to Lead By Example, only he will receive bonuses. If a Salamander uses Flames of Salamander (I've forgotten all the other chapter's abilities) then those four guys will benefit, and nobody else. If the black templar tries to use... black... Templar angry-face, everyone will benefit from it, because he's the leader.

I have no idea how the above rule works with the Ultramarine's Rallying Cry, since it just gives free cohesion points, but cohesion is measured for a squad. So what exactly does it mean to have an ability only boost part of the squad, if that ability by definition provides a resource the whole squad can use?

This really threw me when I first played Deathwatch too. Still not entirely sure on all of it. Are you using the errata'd damage scores for weapons, or sticking with the basic? Basic DW Marines are OP to the point of being Movie Marines. Which is fine for some, but I find they make the game way too easy.

[bluntpencil]

Rites of Battle clears up the poor wording. ;)

Also, yeah, remember, Deathwatch is a superhero game. You aren't just Space Marines, you're the heroic ones that get on the front covers of novels and such.

Deathwatch Marines, compared to their foes, though, are utter glass cannons, unless you really try to break the game with Parries and things. There's a relic that lets you parry ranged attacks in one of the books... stick it on a Storm Warden, and there are ways to become unkillable... but, for the most part - glass cannons.

[Lanlaorn]

What book is that relic in? Black Crusade has a talent that lets you add your WS bonus to your armor against primitive ranged attacks, but I'd love something in the 40k system that lets you parry bullets with a sword.

[bluntpencil]

What book is that relic in? Black Crusade has a talent that lets you add your WS bonus to your armor against primitive ranged attacks, but I'd love something in the 40k system that lets you parry bullets with a sword.

It's a shield in the Emperor's Chosen.

[shadow_archmagi]

Rites of Battle clears up the poor wording. ;)

Also, yeah, remember, Deathwatch is a superhero game. You aren't just Space Marines, you're the heroic ones that get on the front covers of novels and such.

Deathwatch Marines, compared to their foes, though, are utter glass cannons, unless you really try to break the game with Parries and things. There's a relic that lets you parry ranged attacks in one of the books... stick it on a Storm Warden, and there are ways to become unkillable... but, for the most part - glass cannons.

So it does, wow. Thanks, Rites of Battle!

I still don't know how Rallying Cry is supposed to work though.

[Elurindel]

Not sure where else to put this, but if you like diaries of actual games that happened, I've been chronicling the tales of Boris, a Xurunt Frost Father in Black Crusade, and his friends as they make their way through the various modules, run by a GM who likes to challenge us.

Link here: http://community.fantasyflightgames....black-crusade/

[Itrogash]

So it does, wow. Thanks, Rites of Battle!

I still don't know how Rallying Cry is supposed to work though.

It gives you additional Cohesion equal to Fellowship bonus once per session. I don't see anything unclear with that. Cohesion points run like water in most of our games, so it is not really that much. Honestly, it is barely enough to live through most of our encouters without breaking the squad.

It's a shield in the Emperor's Chosen.

It's a book about Veterans, right? I would expect no less from equivalents of epic characters.

Eh, Deathwatch. Black Crusade is a system, where I and my group indulge in heavy roleplaying, but Deathwatch always has been a hack&slash, with plenty of action, manliness and fun. It still had grimdark of Wh40k, but we never really played it seriously. I really like the teamwork aspect here, Cohesion makes the whole gamplay feel like you are really a part of a cohesive fighting unit.

[shadow_archmagi]

Note: I addition to the DW campaign, I also popped into a DH campaign. According to the GM they might intersect at one point.

So now I have a techpriest. I'm not wholly certain what I want to mold him into. I guess there's

1. Pump Toughness, BS. Become a shuffling turret.

2. Pump Intelligence. Become an Adept, make super-high crafting checks to provide party with jetpacks and plasma swords and whatnot.

3. Pump Willpower, pick up The Lathe Worlds talent to become some kind of tech-wizard that throws around energy blasts.