My Little Pony LXXIV: Hats Are Technology!

[Rater202]

I will fully admit to being a complete ignoramus on the topic of Discworld (It's one of those series I've always been meaning to read but can never seem to get around to actually doing so), but that doesn't seem like a particularly good comparison. Do the more recent novels have the exact same cast/locations that the earlier ones did? Has there been no improvement in Pratchett's prose? Does he still use the same sort of plots or themes?

The Discworld isn't a series proper, rather it's a group of series by the same author, in the same setting, although there are a few stand alone titles as well.

Pratchett continues to gently parody all sorts of type of literature, while addressing issues such as racism, hommosexuallity, religion, and other contraversial issues in a humorus manner.

however, I do admit that the quality has declined in the last few books, because Sir Pratchett is slowly losing his mind to Alzheimer's disease.

it is a credit to his skill and brilliance that the decline is barely noticeable

I highly recommend the entire series to you, but suggest that you be careful to read in order. also, be careful, it's forty books long, and Pterry plans to get at least one more out before he dies and hands the reins over to his daughter.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not going to disagree there. Heck, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. Even with just working on writing a story, I'm realizing that it's more than simply borrowing the characters and setting. When I write about Gilda, I don't need to spend time introducing her to the audience. I don't need to explain where she got a friend named Rainbow Dash, or why they don't currently get along, or why these other five ponies are important to the latter. It is a lesser work of literature, lacking because of that, but in exchange having a much larger potential audience to read and critique and review it than that which would otherwise even glance at it. (And this says nothing about personal motivation.)

However, I do find it odd to single out fan-fiction from all other fan-works. Are remixes of official songs really any different? Does cutting and putting together the animations from episodes generate anything better? Is there some value to be found in vectors that I'm missing? From what I see, it's all a case of fan-works in general, with all having the same issues (lack of originality) in exchange for the same benefits (probable greater audience).

As for people critiquing, say, Daring Don't for not being as good as The Sisters Doo... well, that's just silly. And, to be frank, kind of missing the point - it's a bit like people who insist the entire series "failed" and try to remake it all suiting their headcanon. Or assuming that Iron Hoof Celestia is an actual supported canon thing.

Yeah, I'd say that fan-fiction and fan-works such as say, that fan-made episode or that thing with the blind snow-pony? Have a similar kind of thing going. They are derivative, amateur creations. That said, the sheer logistics of the two animation examples there do mean you've kind of got to give them a little more credit simply because they involve writing, animation, sound design, editing etc. Remixes and comic-art and so on and so forth are all vaguely comparable to fan-fiction, at least as far as it relates to any points I was possibly trying to make in that big old wall of text up there.

I'm glad for the clarification of personal props there at the end; makes my thoughts fall into place much more neatly.


Yeah, I can see where you're coming from on this. At the same time, I'm not really seeing where the distinction between something like, say, historical fiction and fan fiction comes into play. Both might use entirely original characters. Both might use existing settings and existing events as backdrops and launching points for their own stories, taking advantage of the preconceived thoughts and emotions of their readers. Both might play with the themes present in their setting, either to subvert, extend, or what have you. The primary distinction that I see is that one draws primarily from nonfiction, and the other from fiction. And I feel as though there's something there I'm missing completely, but figure I'd toss it out to the collective ponythread.


Thoughts?

The closest I ever got to something that one could call historical fiction would be those old Sharpe things starring Sean Bean. Or Inglorious Basterds at a stretch, I guess? Suffice to say that even the former (which has at least passing familiarity with actual events, I presume) boils down to being an original creation starring original characters having interesting, original adventures and wearing plenty of stubble.

I know very little about proper historical fiction in general, so my opinion on the matter is pretty undeveloped, but I see plenty of conceptual space between the idea of writing about real people and the real things they did, verus the idea of telling a story about a character someone else wrote stories about. I can't say I can address the idea in any more depth as such though.

For lack of a better word I call it a category of literature. And you are correct on what it is.

Now that I would disagree with. The line between fanfiction and professional work can often be nothing more then official approval. The Star Wars EU is a good example of this, or getting something published by the Black Library for a Warhammer novel. Fanfictions can bring a lot of interesting new ideas to the table, or flesh out details and characters the original source can't or wouldn't cover. It's not official yes, and that means it might end up being contradicted, but that doesn't decrease it's inherent quality whatever that may be.

Also how do you determine the value of a work of literature? Is it by entertainment? Or how 'deep' a work is? Do you go by the technical quality of a work? How original a work is? Because a lot of the better fanfics would actually be pretty crappy stories if they were directly translated because a lot of their appeal comes from how they are exploring these characters in a new and interesting way. Like Thanqol's Long Distance, or even Fallout Equestria.

Also that's a bad example, afterall the Beatles started out as a cover band and made some amazing music. I wouldn't say those songs are of lower quality or worth. Honestly I'd be hard pressed to even identify them without some serious research.

The thing about the difference between fan-fiction and derivative fiction of some other arbitrarily chosen type is that that's just it. It's just a matter of definition most of all. That said, derivative fiction like the star-wars EU is a good example of literature that I increasingly have no time for. I don't read star-wars books anymore, I have no urge to delve into the black library stuff and the idea of being forced to read D&D tie-in books is enough to make me break out into a cold sweat.

All personal opinion based, you understand, but I tend to assume judging by what I have heard and the few non-thrawn Star-Wars EU books I had the misfortune of reading, that this kind of fiction written on behalf of some larger, very corporate franchise simply tends to be written work. Either generally of dubious quality or simply feeling like it is lacking that spark that comes from writing your own story.

So ... The latter Discworld novels are inherently of less value than the first Discworld novels?

The discworld novels start out as somewhere between silly story, literary parody and philosophically minded satire. Or something like that. They also put together the basics of one of the most interesting settings I've ever encountered. But Sir Terry himself is on record saying something like, if he was aware of how popular they would turn out to be, he'd have written better books.

I'd say the latter books are a little lesser in some senses. I feel in a general way that his storytelling powers peaked at some point during the fantastic run, and I find it hard to say that I don't think that Men at Arms is a significantly better book than the Fifth Elephant. This is nothing to do with the idea of derivative fiction or anything I've been ineptly rambling about and probably has more to do with both the sheer amount of discworld material existing at this point and the depressing, tragic realities of Sir Terry's life and condition.

However, you'll note that even though the world is his and thus even later additions to the series contained within the larger discworld franchise are by definition original and non-derivative (except in as much as they tend to reference stuff), he still puts serious effort into introducing new things. New characters, new storylines, new series, meaningful changes to the status-quo, etc.

If we take a look at an alternate reality where Sir Terry looked at the success of his early books and decided that yep, that's the stuff and thus started churning out a Rincewind and/or Death book every year, with the status quo endlessly preserved then I'd say yeah, definitely the latter books would be innately less worthy than those first few.

Also no, there is no meaningful sense in which continuing to use your own characters can be described as writing fanfiction of your own stories. Except in the sense of implying that the author in question is a hack simply revisiting their earlier success, but I've little interest in discussing the idea of the term fan-fiction as a pejorative.

Now, arguably if his daughter goes on to write Discworld stories in the future you could argue they are fan fiction, but that's a very wibbly wobbly grey area, and I'm not sure I've entirely got my head around the idea of officially appointed successors to a franchise. I do hope the rumours I seem to remember about her being involved with the BBC and looking at doing a Watch Tv series are true though.

[Rater202]

Now, arguably if his daughter goes on to write Discworld stories in the future you could argue they are fan fiction, but that's a very wibbly wobbly grey area, and I'm not sure I've entirely got my head around the idea of officially appointed successors to a franchise.

"They’re sacred, they’re Dad’s legacy and I’m the protector of Discworld and that means protecting it from myself as well."

She's not writing, she's deciding who gets to play in terry's world. she plans to limit it only to writers who will do it justice, which sadly doesn't include her.

I do hope the rumours I seem to remember about her being involved with the BBC and looking at doing a Watch Tv series are true though.

It's legit. I hope it airs in the states.

[erikun]

Yeah, I'd say that fan-fiction and fan-works such as say, that fan-made episode or that thing with the blind snow-pony? Have a similar kind of thing going. They are derivative, amateur creations. That said, the sheer logistics of the two animation examples there do mean you've kind of got to give them a little more credit simply because they involve writing, animation, sound design, editing etc. Remixes and comic-art and so on and so forth are all vaguely comparable to fan-fiction, at least as far as it relates to any points I was possibly trying to make in that big old wall of text up there.

I was more referring to Friendship is Witchcraft or less involved works. (Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged also comes to mind.) While they are certainly fun to watch - and while Friendship is Witchcraft does have the distinction of making it's own theme and songs - it's not similar to actually creating an animation from scratch.

[EDIT]

Now, arguably if his daughter goes on to write Discworld stories in the future you could argue they are fan fiction, but that's a very wibbly wobbly grey area, and I'm not sure I've entirely got my head around the idea of officially appointed successors to a franchise. I do hope the rumours I seem to remember about her being involved with the BBC and looking at doing a Watch Tv series are true though.

Todd McCaffrey has taken over writing novels in Pern, since a bit before his mother (Anne McCaffrey) died.

[Deadly]

The discworld novels start out as somewhere between silly story, literary parody and philosophically minded satire. Or something like that. They also put together the basics of one of the most interesting settings I've ever encountered. But Sir Terry himself is on record saying something like, if he was aware of how popular they would turn out to be, he'd have written better books.

I'd say the latter books are a little lesser in some senses. I feel in a general way that his storytelling powers peaked at some point during the fantastic run, and I find it hard to say that I don't think that Men at Arms is a significantly better book than the Fifth Elephant. This is nothing to do with the idea of derivative fiction or anything I've been ineptly rambling about and probably has more to do with both the sheer amount of discworld material existing at this point and the depressing, tragic realities of Sir Terry's life and condition.

However, you'll note that even though the world is his and thus even later additions to the series contained within the larger discworld franchise are by definition original and non-derivative (except in as much as they tend to reference stuff), he still puts serious effort into introducing new things. New characters, new storylines, new series, meaningful changes to the status-quo, etc.

If we take a look at an alternate reality where Sir Terry looked at the success of his early books and decided that yep, that's the stuff and thus started churning out a Rincewind and/or Death book every year, with the status quo endlessly preserved then I'd say yeah, definitely the latter books would be innately less worthy than those first few.

Also no, there is no meaningful sense in which continuing to use your own characters can be described as writing fanfiction of your own stories. Except in the sense of implying that the author in question is a hack simply revisiting their earlier success, but I've little interest in discussing the idea of the term fan-fiction as a pejorative.

Now, arguably if his daughter goes on to write Discworld stories in the future you could argue they are fan fiction, but that's a very wibbly wobbly grey area, and I'm not sure I've entirely got my head around the idea of officially appointed successors to a franchise. I do hope the rumours I seem to remember about her being involved with the BBC and looking at doing a Watch Tv series are true though.

Obviously some of the Discworld novels will be better than others, but that's a subjective question of taste. For example, of the Tiffany Aching series, I'd personally say my favorite was A Hat Full of Sky which was neither the first nor the last. And I'd probably name Monstrous Regiment as one of my favorites in the larger series.

But we're not discussing individual taste, or even whether his ability is sadly declining in later years. We're talking about whether writing a story based on an existing setting and existing characters (to one degree or another) is inherently of less value than making up an entirely new setting with an entire new cast.

Because your argument seems to be based on the assumption that fanfiction doesn't bring anything new to the story, that fanfiction doesn't introduce new characters, new storylines and situations, meaningful changes, and so on. Or perhaps you're saying that fanfic writers just don't put as much effort into doing so?

And I think that is all terribly flawed and insulting of fanfiction and its writers.

[TheAmishPirate]

Because your argument seems to be based on the assumption that fanfiction doesn't bring anything new to the story, that fanfiction doesn't introduce new characters, new storylines and situations, meaningful changes, and so on.

That's what's puzzling me, too. I've seen fanfiction starring only original characters, and generally using the setting more than anything else. If these characters only exist in one fan-story, and not in the original work that inspired them, is it any different?

(Also, kindly remember to keep showing grace in these discussions. If somebody doesn't mean insult, then give them the benefit of the doubt and let them explain themselves.)

[Deadly]

That's what's puzzling me, too. I've seen fanfiction starring only original characters, and generally using the setting more than anything else. If these characters only exist in one fan-story, and not in the original work that inspired them, is it any different?

Aye. Fanfiction can be quite creative and unique

(Also, kindly remember to keep showing grace in these discussions. If somebody doesn't mean insult, then give them the benefit of the doubt and let them explain themselves.)

I just want to make sure everyone remember that we're discussing something a lot of people greatly enjoy and which for some has had a very big impact on their lives, myself included.




To further elaborate my point, let me phrase it like this. The only difference between what Pratchett is writing and what Random Fanfic Author is writing, is this:

1. Pratchett is very likely a much better, much more experienced author. But that's true in comparison to most authors, not just fanfic authors, because Pratchett is a very experienced author by any standard.

2. Pratchett is using a setting he originally created himself. He is still using an existing setting in all his later work, though.

3. You wouldn't normally call Pratchett a fan of Discworld, and therefore not his work "fanfiction" either. It would at least be somewhat non-standard use of the word.

Everything else may very well be exactly the same. So, which part of the above list makes the work of RFA inherently less valuable than the work of Pratchett? If you like Pratchett better, that's fair enough, but that's your subjective opinion and maybe I like RFA better. If you argue that Pratchett is more talented, that's fair enough and likely correct too, but entirely dependant on our choice of RFA.

[otakuryoga]

i will chime in with my 2 pesos on the current debate...

Soras, I find it interesting you are so adamant that fanart(be it music, video, or especially drawing/painting) is so automaticly superior across the board just because it is music, video, or especially drawing/painting instead of writing

when a movie comes out thats based on a book...what do you hear from
90+% of the audience?
"the book was better"
with a picture being worth a thousand words(and a movie is nothing but a feww hundred thousand pictures = a few hundred million words = MUCH longer than the source in most cases) how does that reconcile with your worldview that visual is so much better than writing?

[HamHam]

The problem with this is twofold. Firstly, there is the risk that by scrutinizing things to such a level you miss what is actually there in favour of your own ideas and interpretations (which also risks making you sound a little pretentious, speaking in general). Secondly, as I mentioned before, all too often the end result is that you enjoy things less than you previously and otherwise would have. You gain nothing meaningful but lose out on what the things you are analyzing had to offer, be that simple fun or a sense of wonder or whatever else.

You enjoy them less because you now have higher standards. You're arguing that it's better to never eat a really good pizza because that way you will never realize that Domino's is terrible.

I repeat, Fan Fiction isn't a medium, a genre, a style or anything else. It's just literature that is, by definition, both derivative and amateur. If you're getting it published as a legitimate work in it's own right, then it's not really fan fiction anymore, it's a parody, an homage, remix, collaboration or who knows what.

You are under the mistaken impression that the publishing industry (for any medium) knows anything about art. Or cares for artistic merit.

A story of the same length and written to the same degree of competence and with the same amount of flair, except with original characters in a distinct and original setting is of innately greater value.

Only if those characters and setting are any good.

But it's not like Shakespear is re-using anyone elses characters in a meaningful way, so I'll admit that basically I think you've lost me there, on this one?

Ahahahaha

I'm not even talking just about the historicals. Pretty much all of his plays are cribbed from other stuff, with an amount of originality equivalent to your average Hollywood genre movie.

As for people critiquing, say, Daring Don't for not being as good as The Sisters Doo... well, that's just silly.

That's not the actual critique, the critique would be something like "Daring Don't presents a concept that it has neither the interest or time to really examine, resulting in a plot that is shallow and artificial." And that fact is made more noticeable by the fact that I have read a story that had a similar concept but took the time and made the effort to flesh out that concept and work out all the jagged edges of trying to put together two worlds that don't really fit.

The show just went all LEEEEEEROY JEEEEEENKINS on the idea and never stopped to ask if any of this makes sense or if some work had to be done to get it to make sense.

Furthermore, I think it illustrates some other short-comings.

1) The writers do not have a unified idea of what Equestria is as a setting. Is it modern? Medieval? Is it a country? A continent? Is it an RPG fantasy world were you can walk a day out of town and fight monsters?

2) They don't understand how to do continuity. A perfect example is how Rarity and Fluttershy are just there in Castle Mania for the most contrived of reasons. It would literally take a single line to establish why Rarity has decided to do this now of all times, like that putting the Elements back in the tree has made the trip safer or that Twilight mentioned seeing the tapestry's in her vision thing. And not only would that make that episode less contrived, but it would create a feeling of continuity which in turns makes the world feel more alive.

[Soras Teva Gee]

For that matter taste is subjective anyways, I find 99% of TV shows to be despicable, but I don't blame TV for that. I put the blame where it belongs, on my own tastes in entertainment. And I know I like things that aren't popular.

That's largely why exceptions don't matter. If there is no "right" answer (subjective) then only points of convergence hold significance. If you only like 1% then as you admit your own tastes are simply too divergent for anyone to pay attention too.

Those exceptions matter to you... if they don't to me where does that leave things?

The ironic thing about abandoning a right answer (objective) is that it leaves only popularity as objective. Since fandom though is never broadly popular it being ascribed importance can only be limiting a show to a narrow subsection of people who less have tastes but highly specific fetishes... or annihilation from low ratings outright when that narrowest slice of people isn't enough for the (quite right) bean counters.

As a side comment on this whole debate, and as a general observation, I find it utterly fascinating how people (Soras, in this case. I am going to mention him here directly as to not appear passive-agressive.) can broadly declare certain concepts of entertainment and art as worthless and universally terrible, and then react with such anger, sometimes even shock, to people who enjoy that concept rushing to defend it. Not going to make any judgements on this, I just find it very interesting.

I'm a twisted deviant that gets perverse pleasure from this. Its a form of entertainment for me. I'm not sure if I've been shocked in this conversation... but if it was it was a disingenuous position.

I don't expect success (I'm a heretic arguing with fan-atics here!) I'm just dropping some seeds while I munch on most of them for my own satisfaction.

What's really disconcerning is that all of your points against fan-fiction and enjoying fan-fiction frequently gets used against My Little Pony and people who enjoy My Little Pony, up to and including being a symptom/cause of a problem in society.

Depending on the specifics I'd might agree with those points. We ARE a pushy bunch that want to fill the universe up with ponies for example. I believe I once labelled us the best case of herpes ever.

Though since the general public is still modestly unaware of our existence... well on the net I'm more inclined to expect two kettles calling each other pots. Since I regard fandom as a singular entity this sort of... intramural sports rivalry... doesn't matter.

I think it's fine that you have an opinion, but I don't think that referring to me as a cause of mental disease because I enjoy stories and wish to give other people some enjoyment is okay.

If you haven't noticed I'm not particularly careful about mere sensitivities.

This is because I do not allow others opinions to move my own merely because they disagree. And I regard that creeping oversensitivity to tie toe around POVs as an outright tyranny (not hyperbole there btw) so I'll stoke that fire until everyone learns to not get burned.

You can ask that retard sterotype Derpy Hooves about the alternative. No so different you ask me. (Also not hyperbole. I'm still very sore about this and at war with the mindset that birthed it)

While Soras has a certain serrated edge to his points and a deeply held opinion at their core, I do think he has a point to some degree.

You forgot the spider venom.

Nothing is original. No matter what you write, you're drawing from someone else's material. Fanfiction just doesn't bother to hide that fact. And really, what makes the difference?

One cannot blaze new ground... but if the trail is the same you can still keep out of someone's bootprints.

There's an element of ultimate failure to the endeavor, but one must pursue it anyways. At the very least I don't expect many creators set out with "I'm going to be a derivative and imitative as I can so everyone will say I'm just like X" as their goal.

(Though nothing new under the sun applies to well everything. Fanfics are setting themselves a narrow target there from the start so everyone isn't OOC)

[TheAmishPirate]

2. Pratchett is using a setting he originally created himself. He is still using an existing setting in all his later work, though.

I think this is really the sticking point here, and an important one at that.

Saying that his later works used an "existing setting", when he himself created that setting, doesn't sit right with me. It seems to say that, in the later books, he had to spend less creative effort because there was an existing setting he could use. Which is technically true, but it ignores two things:

1) The initial creative work and effort that went into creating the setting in the first place.

2) The work done to expand and grow the setting as the story demands, while still keeping it consistent.

In the case of fanfiction, #1 is never really a factor, at least not to the degree of creating a fresh setting from scratch. #2 is much more common, but it's difficult to keep a setting consistent when you didn't create it yourself. Unless you study it religiously and purloin the author's notes, I just don't see how a fanwork can claim the same degree of consistency when working with incomplete information.

Mind, they can get close enough so that nothing feels jarring to a majority of readers, which works for what fanfiction is. And that's alright by my book, if you'll pardon the pun. But it does provide enough contrast that I can't in good conscience call sequels fanfics of the original.

[erikun]

That's not the actual critique, the critique would be something like "Daring Don't presents a concept that it has neither the interest or time to really examine, resulting in a plot that is shallow and artificial." And that fact is made more noticeable by the fact that I have read a story that had a similar concept but took the time and made the effort to flesh out that concept and work out all the jagged edges of trying to put together two worlds that don't really fit.

The show just went all LEEEEEEROY JEEEEEENKINS on the idea and never stopped to ask if any of this makes sense or if some work had to be done to get it to make sense.

Furthermore, I think it illustrates some other short-comings.

1) The writers do not have a unified idea of what Equestria is as a setting. Is it modern? Medieval? Is it a country? A continent? Is it an RPG fantasy world were you can walk a day out of town and fight monsters?

2) They don't understand how to do continuity. A perfect example is how Rarity and Fluttershy are just there in Castle Mania for the most contrived of reasons. It would literally take a single line to establish why Rarity has decided to do this now of all times, like that putting the Elements back in the tree has made the trip safer or that Twilight mentioned seeing the tapestry's in her vision thing. And not only would that make that episode less contrived, but it would create a feeling of continuity which in turns makes the world feel more alive.

We have dozens, probably hundreds, of fanfics that go through a retelling of the first Friendship Is Magic two-part episode. Some have different characters, or different situations, or Luna having banished an insane Celestia rather than the other way around. Some are even good; some remarkably so, being able to take time to work out character motivation and story elements far better than what the show did.

And yet, I've never heard that the first two episodes were bad "Because fanfic X did it better."

We've seen old methods of letter delivery and manual labor sitting right next to electrically powered megaphones. We've seen small children regularly making their way through the Everfree Forest by themselves, despite the supposed dangers. We've seen pony-eatings monsters lying around in bogs that ponies visit and consider "safe". And this is stuff we've seen in Season 1, not some new development where a particular writer isn't living up to the predesired level of quality.

Perhaps that's what you're saying, in that Friendship is Magic isn't a gold standard of writing and has its faults? If so, then I agree with you. It's probably a good idea to keep this in mind, as there are people who can make writing that is better. It just bothers me when somebody complains about the newest episode as if this is something that's different with the show overall.

[Tiki Snakes]

Because your argument seems to be based on the assumption that fanfiction doesn't bring anything new to the story, that fanfiction doesn't introduce new characters, new storylines and situations, meaningful changes, and so on. Or perhaps you're saying that fanfic writers just don't put as much effort into doing so?

And I think that is all terribly flawed and insulting of fanfiction and its writers.

Hmm. Having to actually put some effort in to thinking tonight.
Let's try phrasing it this way;
I'm not saying that Fanfic Writers don't put in as much effort, either as far as quality or quantity goes. (Some Fanfic Authors in particular know all about Quantity, I understand!)

I'm not talking about Quality, so much bear in mind. Hence my earlier example specifying two works of equal skill and quality in general. Rather, value, artistic merit, whatever you want to call it. A much more nebulous measure of worthiness and contribution to art.

That's what's puzzling me, too. I've seen fanfiction starring only original characters, and generally using the setting more than anything else. If these characters only exist in one fan-story, and not in the original work that inspired them, is it any different?

Even with keeping things confined to a slightly binary view of the situation, black and white, it's still led to the sacrifice of many blameless words. Paragraphs by the dozen dying in the cause of making sense.

But yes, if we grayscale a little for a moment. A work of Fanfiction which includes a large proportion of original characters, concepts and locations is simply more original (though that's probably the wrong word. As in less derivative rather than necessarily better) than one that stays closer to the originating show/franchise. So a fic which has many OC's, in a new (or drastically changed) location, telling a story of a very different kind than the show could fairly be said to be much more original.

It is much more truly the author's work, a creation more meaningfully of theirs.

I would say that on some level it has a higher value, even though it may at the same time be strictly a much worse story than one featuring the Mane 6 in Ponyville.

To further elaborate my point, let me phrase it like this. The only difference between what Pratchett is writing and what Random Fanfic Author is writing, is this:

1. Pratchett is very likely a much better, much more experienced author. But that's true in comparison to most authors, not just fanfic authors, because Pratchett is a very experienced author by any standard.

2. Pratchett is using a setting he originally created himself. He is still using an existing setting in all his later work, though.

3. You wouldn't normally call Pratchett a fan of Discworld, and therefore not his work "fanfiction" either. It would at least be somewhat non-standard use of the word.

Everything else may very well be exactly the same. So, which part of the above list makes the work of RFA inherently less valuable than the work of Pratchett? If you like Pratchett better, that's fair enough, but that's your subjective opinion and maybe I like RFA better. If you argue that Pratchett is more talented, that's fair enough and likely correct too, but entirely dependant on our choice of RFA.

To confirm, yes. I very much believe point 2 to be the only one that really matters, when it comes to what I am talking about at least. The objective quality of his writing and his experience or his command of prose and his wittyness all help make them excellent books, but that's beside the point. It is the fact that it is his universe he is exploring, his themes, his ideas, his characters, etc. The work is truly, deeply and meaningfully his. Regardless of whether you believe them to be any good or not, this is where the idea of it being somehow valuable comes from, to me. In comparison, if an author one-day writes an authorised story set in the discworld, that would probably be nice because it's a setting I have great fondness for and I think Terry very much likes the idea that it will continue to grow and develop and live on after him. But as a work of art, that book will be less important, less valuable.

You enjoy them less because you now have higher standards. You're arguing that it's better to never eat a really good pizza because that way you will never realize that Domino's is terrible.

That's a pretty inaccurate analogy, I believe. I would instead suggest the following;
Let's say you decide to emulate a food critic, taking your time over your meals, really identifying the components of the meal, comparing it to other meals you have had or would like to have, maybe comparing the meal to how you would have cooked it and generally take time to learn to be critical of what you are eating. You train your palate to recognise subtle flavours, you develop a craving for novelty, presentation of the dish and so on.

It is my stance that you risk forgetting the simply joys that made you enjoy food in the first place. Simple home-cooked meals, a take-away pizza is now a thing to dread rather than a guilty pleasure and so on. Whereas someone who hasn't done that to themselves can still eat the gourmet pizza and recognise it as being an excellent pizza, but will be able to enjoy less complicated far as well. The critic may feel comfortable looking down at his friend, but at the end of the day he is less happy more often because of his choice and the attitude he has developed.

[Crimson Doom]

One cannot blaze new ground... but if the trail is the same you can still keep out of someone's bootprints.

There's an element of ultimate failure to the endeavor, but one must pursue it anyways. At the very least I don't expect many creators set out with "I'm going to be a derivative and imitative as I can so everyone will say I'm just like X" as their goal.

(Though nothing new under the sun applies to well everything. Fanfics are setting themselves a narrow target there from the start so everyone isn't OOC)

To run with your own analogy, what it sounds like to me is that you're criticizing fanfiction because the writers try to match the official source's bootprints as near as is possible with different (and likely inferior) shoes. Yes? If I'm wrong, feel free to ignore everything after this sentence and clarify what you actually did mean.

Thing is, though, walking where someone else has stepped means you don't walk into quicksand. There are clear benefits to stepping where another has stepped, even if it's not as original as taking a different path through old ground. It's caution, prudency, and while I agree that sometimes this leads to staleness (in fact, it very often does), I don't think you can rightfully criticize people for taking a safer route until they know the ground well enough to avoid the pitfalls.

As I said, though, if that's not what you meant, feel free to correct me.

Yes, the analogy isn't perfect. If it was perfect, it wouldn't be an analogy.

[Tectonic Robot]

In my personal opinion, fanfiction is A-OK and there t'aint anything wrong with it. As someone who as created a piece of fan literature myself, I don't quite see the dangers Mr. Soras is telling us about.

[Juntao112]

In my personal opinion, fanfiction is A-OK and there t'aint anything wrong with it. As someone who as created a piece of fan literature myself, I don't quite see the dangers Mr. Soras is telling us about.

Fanfiction produced Le Morte d'Arthur, Romeo and Juliet, Othello, Narnia, Journey to the West, The Water Margin, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and the last 40 chapters of Dream of the Red Chamber.

Now do you see the problem?

[Tectonic Robot]

But fanfiction produced Le Morte d'Arthur, Romeo and Juliet, Othello, and Narnia!

Are these, ah, dangerous works of fiction?

[Juntao112]

Well, Romeo and Juliet lead to Twilight...

[TheAmishPirate]

Even with keeping things confined to a slightly binary view of the situation, black and white, it's still led to the sacrifice of many blameless words. Paragraphs by the dozen dying in the cause of making sense.

But yes, if we grayscale a little for a moment. A work of Fanfiction which includes a large proportion of original characters, concepts and locations is simply more original (though that's probably the wrong word. As in less derivative rather than necessarily better) than one that stays closer to the originating show/franchise. So a fic which has many OC's, in a new (or drastically changed) location, telling a story of a very different kind than the show could fairly be said to be much more original.

It is much more truly the author's work, a creation more meaningfully of theirs.

I would say that on some level it has a higher value, even though it may at the same time be strictly a much worse story than one featuring the Mane 6 in Ponyville.

This sits well with me. At least as well as I can contemplate after a long day's thinking and wording.



EDIT: Augh gosh what a stooge am I

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, Romeo and Juliet lead to Twilight...

Again, whilst there is a similar thing going on, I wouldn't call either of those things Fan-Fiction. Not under any definition I personally recognise.

[Juntao112]

Again, whilst there is a similar thing going on, I wouldn't call either of those things Fan-Fiction. Not under any definition I personally recognise.

Its plot is based on the Italian tale The Tragical History of Romeus and Juliet.

Shakespear was very lucky to have lived in a time before copyright laws.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To run with your own analogy, what it sounds like to me is that you're criticizing fanfiction because the writers try to match the official source's bootprints as near as is possible with different (and likely inferior) shoes. Yes? If I'm wrong, feel free to ignore everything after this sentence and clarify what you actually did mean.

More or less though I never completely endorse others summations

Thing is, though, walking where someone else has stepped means you don't walk into quicksand. There are clear benefits to stepping where another has stepped, even if it's not as original as taking a different path through old ground. It's caution, prudency, and while I agree that sometimes this leads to staleness (in fact, it very often does), I don't think you can rightfully criticize people for taking a safer route until they know the ground well enough to avoid the pitfalls.

I'm aware of this.

Sometimes the trail is so narrow your not only it not be helped, but it would be actively bad to do so. And to a certain degree this is why I chose a trail not a road, because that implies are certain narrowness and limitation.

Of course those narrow spots often get flack for being "cliche" or some such Thus there's a certain tendency to step in the quick sand because when every boot has already marked out the same path its really easy to see but not always accompanied by the realization that if there's next to no variation its probably for a good reason.

Guess who I think either doesn't get the hint... or never went on the trail and got bushwhacked by a tiger in the jungle

So yes and no at once.

[Crimson Doom]

More or less though I never completely endorse others summations

Okay, good. Nothing more embarrassing than arguing against a point no one ever made.

I'm aware of this.

Sometimes the trail is so narrow your not only it not be helped, but it would be actively bad to do so. And to a certain degree this is why I chose a trail not a road, because that implies are certain narrowness and limitation.

Of course those narrow spots often get flack for being "cliche" or some such Thus there's a certain tendency to step in the quick sand because when every boot has already marked out the same path its really easy to see but not always accompanied by the realization that if there's next to no variation its probably for a good reason.

Guess who I think either doesn't get the hint... or never went on the trail and got bushwhacked by a tiger in the jungle

So yes and no at once.

Okay... I think I got lost in the analogy and have managed to miss how this relates to your views on fanfiction. Probably has to do with the fact that, as I said, I've been ignoring most of the argument. May also have to do with the fact that I have no clue what you're trying to say with the bolded part.

But whatever. So long as we can agree that unoriginality is not the Eighth Deadly Sin, I'm satisfied.

[DigoDragon]

Uh...

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I hope the discussion is civil.

Didn't the episode state that it was only the valley that would be inundated with heat?

I think it was said that it'll bring heat to the valley, but no mention if that would leak to the surrounding areas or not. I suppose it's open to interpretation?

Also, scuba for cats

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Yeah, Ahuwhateveryournameis... worst villain ever.

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Am I imagining things, or is Luna back to S1 mane?

Comic #17

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Maybe she magically changes it every few comics? You know, like how some of us change up our fashion accessories once in a while? That mane has to be magical.

EDIT: Augh gosh what a stooge am I

Which one? I'm partial to Curly.

Thoughts?

I wrote "Beer imported from countries known for making cars" on my Amazon wishlist.
It's so crazy, it's gotta work.

[Crimson Doom]

I think it was said that it'll bring heat to the valley, but no mention if that would leak to the surrounding areas or not. I suppose it's open to interpretation?

I suppose. It would make a certain sort of sense that the effect would spread; after all, if it was just the valley, we're just dooming Ahuizotl's Aztec minions to 800 years of heat, and that's hardly worth preventing (unless my idea that the heat opens another ancient repository of artifacts is correct). But if it could spread over time, that would definitely mess up the climate to the point where it's worth preventing.

Also, scuba for cats

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Yeah, Ahuwhateveryournameis... worst villain ever.

Nahhhhh, Doofenshmirtz is worst villain. Ahuizotl can settle for distant second.

Spoiler: Large Doofenshmirtz Pony Image Ahoy. Also Unnecessary Capititalization Of The First Letter In Every Word.

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[TheAmishPirate]

Which one? I'm partial to Curly.

I can do an impressive "Woop woop woop."

I wrote "Beer imported from countries known for making cars" on my Amazon wishlist.
It's so crazy, it's gotta work.

Technically speaking, that is a thought, and is thus relevant to my question. I wish your wishlist tomfoolery the best of luck.

[Juntao112]

I wrote "Beer imported from countries known for making cars" on my Amazon wishlist.
It's so crazy, it's gotta work.

Japan? Korea? Italy?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Okay... I think I got lost in the analogy and have managed to miss how this relates to your views on fanfiction. Probably has to do with the fact that, as I said, I've been ignoring most of the argument. May also have to do with the fact that I have no clue what you're trying to say with the bolded part.

But whatever. So long as we can agree that unoriginality is not the Eighth Deadly Sin, I'm satisfied.

Their both about when someone tries to be effectively different for different's sake not realizing that the certain things simply don't work. They stepped in quicksand to avoid the bootprints, or got eaten by a tiger for trying to not follow others. Both essentially the same thing, not following when that's actually wise.

Its not that directly related to the rest of the conversation actually, different manifestations of a general lack of talent but that's it.

As for Eight Deadly Sin... well that's fandom so can't be that anyways. More seriously its much a matter of degree, everything have some derivation still leaves a spectrum of possibility most of the time so its not the best defense.

[One Tin Soldier]

Oh hey, end of semester prevented me from posting in this thread yet. I suppose I can respond to these less... divisive topics.

Well, I didn't. But now I do! It's like whole new world opened up to me! One filled with goo and liquids! One where I can poke a pony and watch the ripples slowly spread over its semi-solid coat! It's so beautiful.

Ah yes, there is much potential in goo ponies.

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So, remember the Equestria map poster they did? You know that red line travel sequence from the episode?



I love it.

Yes, good to see that they are using a somewhat consistent map.

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The nom de plume, as mentioned. I also assumed Rainbow Dash and Twilight going back and forth about the events of the various books to be a nod in that direction. That one is probably on me, the more I think about it. I've never read the HP books, but I see that type of conversation between people when they're discussing them, and I don't really see it when people discuss other fiction.

I think that could have been just about any fandom, really. I was mostly thinking of your average discussion of Star Wars EU, for instance.

Copying and playing with others' IP is a longstanding tradition as part of learning and training the visual artist's craft.

Writing, not so much. Partially there's the general rule that using someone else's world and characters means that the world-building and character-building components are not getting the same amount of practice one would if one were working with one's own body of creations or drawing upon nature/meatspace.

So that's one component, maybe two.

As people have mentioned before me, writing what could be called fanfiction for an extremely long time. Like, Aristotle and Plato's era.

Japan? Korea? Italy?

I would have guessed Germany.

[MCerberus]

I don't know what's going on here.
Mini-Luna dump.

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