My Little Pony LXXIV: Hats Are Technology!

[Ravian]

Japan? Korea? Italy?

Far simpler, Mercedes-Benz are after all a German brand. Great cars, great beer.

Unless you're looking for something off the beaten path?

[RCgothic]

I've been really enjoying this fic:

Trixie vs Equestria

It's not finished quite yet, but it does update with gratifying frequency. All the characters are really well done. And, you know, it has Trixie and Luna, who are both best ponies!

[HamHam]

And yet, I've never heard that the first two episodes were bad "Because fanfic X did it better."

Well yeah but those episodes are actually good, give or take an Applejack cliff scene.

We've seen old methods of letter delivery and manual labor sitting right next to electrically powered megaphones.

And resolving it's schizo-tech issues is one of the many things the show needs to improve on.

We've seen small children regularly making their way through the Everfree Forest by themselves, despite the supposed dangers.

We all know Applebloom is cray cray.

We've seen pony-eatings monsters lying around in bogs that ponies visit and consider "safe".

That episode was terrible anyway.

And this is stuff we've seen in Season 1, not some new development where a particular writer isn't living up to the predesired level of quality.

Generally shows should improve over time.

[Aotrs Commander]

The findings from the UK investigation into the horsemeat scandel earlier in the year suggests that food crime is not only A Thing, but a big enough Thing (with organised crime) to warrent a special task force to be set up to deal with it.

So apparently, Northern Spy being a "food inspector in the murky world of culinary espionage" is actually not as quite far-fetched and silly as we might first have thought and has some grounding in reality.

The mind boggles.

[Grif]

Sidestepping all the obviously serious(?) discussion to drop my own opinions on the season.

Also post of the month (and the month before, and the month before, before.):

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Princess Twilight Sparkle - Simply fun to watch, Discord was actually relevant in a clever, very Discord way. Plot wasn't bad, though I am questioning why the Princesses can get kidnapped from the castle by tentacle(!) plants without anyone noticing. Still small enough plot hole in the category of "Convenient Book that Describes Cure" that it can be overlooked.

Castle Mania - Contrived plot, but overall not bad. All the mane six antics in the castle was quite enjoyable to watch. Not much of a story, but like Lesson Zero, it seemed to be aimed at providing the Mane Six a way to narrate their morals at the end of each episode. (Can't write letters to Celestia now.)

Daring Don't - Just... ew. Very terrible on hindsight, mostly relating to the shallow story, arc and all the unpleasant implication to the canon. Like MMDW, it is superficially enjoyable to watch, but this is one episode I might put on "Do Not Rewatch" list.

Also, Rainbow Dash, why you useless for 80% of the episode? No, the kitty face you made do not make up for the sheer fail.

Now, I go!

[SiuiS]

"Why did you name me Sunshine Ladybug Moonchaser?"

"Because you come from a long line of wizards, young lady, and no one has ever awoken because they were Martha."

[Forum Explorer]

The closest I ever got to something that one could call historical fiction would be those old Sharpe things starring Sean Bean. Or Inglorious Basterds at a stretch, I guess? Suffice to say that even the former (which has at least passing familiarity with actual events, I presume) boils down to being an original creation starring original characters having interesting, original adventures and wearing plenty of stubble.

I know very little about proper historical fiction in general, so my opinion on the matter is pretty undeveloped, but I see plenty of conceptual space between the idea of writing about real people and the real things they did, verus the idea of telling a story about a character someone else wrote stories about. I can't say I can address the idea in any more depth as such though.



The thing about the difference between fan-fiction and derivative fiction of some other arbitrarily chosen type is that that's just it. It's just a matter of definition most of all. That said, derivative fiction like the star-wars EU is a good example of literature that I increasingly have no time for. I don't read star-wars books anymore, I have no urge to delve into the black library stuff and the idea of being forced to read D&D tie-in books is enough to make me break out into a cold sweat.

All personal opinion based, you understand, but I tend to assume judging by what I have heard and the few non-thrawn Star-Wars EU books I had the misfortune of reading, that this kind of fiction written on behalf of some larger, very corporate franchise simply tends to be written work. Either generally of dubious quality or simply feeling like it is lacking that spark that comes from writing your own story.

Well from the few historical novels I've read they basically work like this, they take a real life scenario (like the Crusades for example), take historical figures (Like Alexander the Great), take a rough interpretation of what life was like at that time, right a story using the above elements+ extra stuff the author makes up. It really is similar to fanfiction.


That's kinda my point. A lot of those works are basically glorified fanfiction, but they don't get the same 'inherently less worthwhile' attitude fanfiction gets. Or should all derivative works have the same value or lack there of that fanfiction has?

Well let's take Life of Pi for example. Famous book, won awards, and a really good read. Did you know it was based off of another novel called Max and the Cats? They did end up as very different stories, but you could certainly say that Life of Pi is derivative of Max and the Cats. Does that mean Life of Pi is worth less?

Tiki you missed the big part of my last post. How are you judging the value of a piece of literature to art and the world?

That's largely why exceptions don't matter. If there is no "right" answer (subjective) then only points of convergence hold significance. If you only like 1% then as you admit your own tastes are simply too divergent for anyone to pay attention too.

Those exceptions matter to you... if they don't to me where does that leave things?

The ironic thing about abandoning a right answer (objective) is that it leaves only popularity as objective. Since fandom though is never broadly popular it being ascribed importance can only be limiting a show to a narrow subsection of people who less have tastes but highly specific fetishes... or annihilation from low ratings outright when that narrowest slice of people isn't enough for the (quite right) bean counters.

The only things objective are scientific facts. Everything else is subjective. And no popularity isn't an objective trait of measurement either. Subjectivity comes into play when you are deciding which 'group' you use to measure how many people like it. Or do you go off the total population of the world in which case, yes everything is crap. Perhaps you go off of how many people have actually viewed the work in question, in which case many fanfics are actually 'objectively good'. Do you go off the intended audience perhaps? How about the fandom in question? All fandoms? Total population of every country that has at least some members of the audience? Where you draw the line is very subjective, but you better make sure you use the same line for everything you criticize or else you are just being a hypocrite.

Also I think you are misunderstanding what I mean when I'm saying that exceptions matter. What I'm saying is that there is no type of fiction, genera, category or style that is universally beloved by all, and has every single piece of art being an amazing masterpiece. Everything good is an exception, and if you are saying exceptions don't matter, then you have to apply it to all categories equally. Not simply dismiss fanfiction exceptions as worthless simply because you have a prejudice against fandoms.

Also yes, taste and quality of work is subjective. I might not like the Twilight movies, but that doesn't mean lots of people don't enjoy them, and just because their point of view is different then mine, doesn't make their opinions less valid.

And when two people disagree about how good a work is? Ideally they calmly explain to each other about what they liked and what they disliked and why. If they can't come to a consensus of the quality of the work then they agree to disagree.

Sidestepping all the obviously serious(?) discussion to drop my own opinions on the season.

Also post of the month (and the month before, and the month before, before.):

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Daring Don't - Just... ew. Very terrible on hindsight, mostly relating to the shallow story, arc and all the unpleasant implication to the canon. Like MMDW, it is superficially enjoyable to watch, but this is one episode I might put on "Do Not Rewatch" list.

Also, Rainbow Dash, why you useless for 80% of the episode? No, the kitty face you made do not make up for the sheer fail.

Now, I go!

Mind expanding on that? I don't see what the unpleasant implication to the canon might be.

[Grif]

Mind expanding on that? I don't see what the unpleasant implication to the canon might be.

I might not really be clear, but here goes:

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A lot of it has to do with establishing that a) Daring Do is real and b) her adventures are therefore, real.

I guess the most important point for me was the question why does Daring Do solves these problem by her own lonesome instead of relying on authorities. Or any other help for that matter. And the implication that Equestria is that lawless enough that permits supervillains like Azu-whatever he is, exists in the first place. (One would imagine Celestia might get called in for this.) I get they're trying for an Indiana Jones' like adventure, but even Indy Jones had help and usually solves the case on his own because no one else would believe him. (Ark of Covenant, Dr Jones?)

The fact that Daring Do actively writes these books based on her own adventures... well, I don't know. Leaves kinda a bad taste in my mouth? (A.K. Yearling? Really?) Hm. Then again, I have seen this plot point being used in a DD story I pre-read so maybe it wasn't so bad.

It also didn't help that it ruined the headcanon that Daring Do as described by Rainbow Dash in the hospital episode was a self-insert of herself into the story, and not the actual Daring Do. This might be a bigger factor than I thought it would. At the very least, it kinda spoiled the impression that the writers were subtle enough to imply that it might be all Rainbow's imagination.

Incoherent? Perhaps. But eh, I'm probably lacking sleep as well.

[Aotrs Commander]

"Why did you name me Sunshine Ladybug Moonchaser?"

"Because you come from a long line of wizards, young lady, and no one has ever awoken because they were Martha."

David Mitchell is one of our great national treasures.

[Gamerlord]

I might not really be clear, but here goes:

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A lot of it has to do with establishing that a) Daring Do is real and b) her adventures are therefore, real.

I guess the most important point for me was the question why does Daring Do solves these problem by her own lonesome instead of relying on authorities. Or any other help for that matter. And the implication that Equestria is that lawless enough that permits supervillains like Azu-whatever he is, exists in the first place. (One would imagine Celestia might get called in for this.) I get they're trying for an Indiana Jones' like adventure, but even Indy Jones had help and usually solves the case on his own because no one else would believe him. (Ark of Covenant, Dr Jones?)

The fact that Daring Do actively writes these books based on her own adventures... well, I don't know. Leaves kinda a bad taste in my mouth? (A.K. Yearling? Really?) Hm. Then again, I have seen this plot point being used in a DD story I pre-read so maybe it wasn't so bad.

It also didn't help that it ruined the headcanon that Daring Do as described by Rainbow Dash in the hospital episode was a self-insert of herself into the story, and not the actual Daring Do. This might be a bigger factor than I thought it would. At the very least, it kinda spoiled the impression that the writers were subtle enough to imply that it might be all Rainbow's imagination.

Incoherent? Perhaps. But eh, I'm probably lacking sleep as well.

Way past Tuesday, so I don't see any reason to keep this spoilered.

A:"Relying on authorities" : Celesta,Luna,Cadence, Shining Armor, and the mane cast all have much more important things to do then deal with a D-lister like Azu-haufhguiweahgauwhgiuashguiahgwe. That leaves the more standard royal guard, and those guys suck. Also, as I believe Daring Don't mentions, her kind of work involves a lot of very nasty items that as few people as possible should know the exact details of.
B:"Rainbow Dash's Imagination": IIRC, she also looked like that on the cover, so unless Rainbow Dash took much nastier injury to the head then that episode showed, Daring's appearance isn't just based on Rainbow Dash projecting herself.
C: "Equestira's lawlessness": If Pinkie's trail was any indication they were waaaaaaaaaay beyond most of what we see in the show, and Daring wouldn't have made her house there if it wasn't pretty remote.

[Kd7sov]

And resolving it's schizo-tech issues is one of the many things the show needs to improve on.

Curious, I find that part of its charm. But then, Thief of Time and Going Postal, which lampshade much the same issue in two different ways, are two of my favorite Discworld books.

[Grif]

Way past Tuesday, so I don't see any reason to keep this spoilered.

A:"Relying on authorities" : Celesta,Luna,Cadence, Shining Armor, and the mane cast all have much more important things to do then deal with a D-lister like Azu-haufhguiweahgauwhgiuashguiahgwe. That leaves the more standard royal guard, and those guys suck. Also, as I believe Daring Don't mentions, her kind of work involves a lot of very nasty items that as few people as possible should know the exact details of.
B:"Rainbow Dash's Imagination": IIRC, she also looked like that on the cover, so unless Rainbow Dash took much nastier injury to the head then that episode showed, Daring's appearance isn't just based on Rainbow Dash projecting herself.
C: "Equestira's lawlessness": If Pinkie's trail was any indication they were waaaaaaaaaay beyond most of what we see in the show, and Daring wouldn't have made her house there if it wasn't pretty remote.

Eh, I fully admit I might be belly-aching at this point. Also keeping it spoilered because I figured you guys wouldn't want to rehash the same old arguments all over again.

[Thanqol]

Yes.

Anyone with a word processor can produce a fanfic. And I dare venture most people with computers do have one. And everyone has at least some command of English presuming they interact online in anything other then say voice chat.

If you can comment in ponythread you can write a fanfic.

Versus say having often expensive editing software? Or being able to draw? Or play a musical instrument? Yeah, not everyone can do that it has a higher threshold to get started.



Nope.

Your so up defending fanfics you missed what I was talking about with nature of other fan works and completely missed my intent there.



Oh get off the high horse.

This is the exact sort of removal from reality that has driven my views.

You wanna read fanfic, well hey not like I'm going to fly over to England while smuggling a gun so I can hold it to your head. But you sure are going to hear me when I speak in public about how terrible they all are. No exceptions don't matter, that's why they are exceptions.

But you have aptly demonstrated the exact corrosive effects I'm really talking about. That intellectually incestuous behavior pattern (preacher and choir) creating a closed circle of self importance that shows the etymology of "fan" is indeed spot on.

I'd despise it if fanfics actually were better then their source material.

Soras, pull your head out of your ass. These are the worst arguments I've ever seen posted in Ponythread.

I'm not going to break down this down into an argument like some other people have done. I'm just going to extract some key thoughts:

Versus say having often expensive editing software? Or being able to draw? Or play a musical instrument? Yeah, not everyone can do that it has a higher threshold to get started.

Hahaha, look at this guy, saying that there's a higher threshold to get started on art than writing.

No exceptions don't matter, that's why they are exceptions.

You're right, good stories in video games/children's cartoons/theatre are exceptions and not the rule, therefore nothing of cultural worth shall ever emerge from a video games/children's cartoons/theatre.

This is the exact sort of removal from reality that has driven my views.

I met a guy who liked Rock&Roll and was also a creepy weirdo. As a result I avoided Rock&Roll like the plague for seven years. I eventually pulled my head out of my ass and realised that I was able to like the things I wanted to like without caring about the structure of any fandom surrounding the thing.

That intellectually incestuous behavior pattern (preacher and choir) creating a closed circle of self importance that shows the etymology of "fan" is indeed spot on.

Paradise Lost, Good Omens, The Chronicles of Narnia and many other works are fanfictions of the Bible.

This is literally how culture works.

I'd despise it if fanfics actually were better then their source material.

Why?

[DigoDragon]

Why the unicorns will never rule Equestria.

I suppose. It would make a certain sort of sense that the effect would spread;

Yeah. While it's looking like the Sun and Moon are not the usual celestial bodies we're accustomed to, I'd hope that the basic laws of thermodynamics still apply to pony world.

Nahhhhh, Doofenshmirtz is worst villain. Ahuizotl can settle for distant second.

Wow, that really captures him well. Heh, nice cutie mark. Okay, I accept your argument. Doof is the best worst villain. Almost makes me want to do a second Doof_x_Pony crossover comic.

I can do an impressive "Woop woop woop."

Awesome. Mine isn't that good, but I know how to do that weird floor "spin walk" that Homer Simpson does sometimes. Got to pivot on your shoulder just right or it'll hurt though.

Japan? Korea? Italy?

I would have guessed Germany.

I dunno. I left it open-ended since I'm no connoisseur of beer (my wife joked about looking up some obscure auto manufacturers). Since 99% of the time I'm the designated driver, I've only been able to drink if I visit my dad. He usually just has something domestic (like Bud light). Or from Venezuela (how isthis pronounced?).

Berry Punch

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[One Tin Soldier]

Why the unicorns will never rule Equestria.



Yeah. While it's looking like the Sun and Moon are not the usual celestial bodies we're accustomed to, I'd hope that the basic laws of thermodynamics still apply to pony world.




Wow, that really captures him well. Heh, nice cutie mark. Okay, I accept your argument. Doof is the best worst villain. Almost makes me want to do a second Doof_x_Pony crossover comic.




Awesome. Mine isn't that good, but I know how to do that weird floor "spin walk" that Homer Simpson does sometimes. Got to pivot on your shoulder just right or it'll hurt though.





I dunno. I left it open-ended since I'm no connoisseur of beer (my wife joked about looking up some obscure auto manufacturers). Since 99% of the time I'm the designated driver, I've only been able to drink if I visit my dad. He usually just has something domestic (like Bud light). Or from Venezuela (how isthis pronounced?).

Berry Punch

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Ah, gotcha. Well, hopefully whatever you get is either good or entertainingly weird.
Also, Venezuela is a Spanish-based word, so it's actually pretty straightforward. Its pronounced Ven-ez-wayla.

[DigoDragon]

Also, Venezuela is a Spanish-based word, so it's actually pretty straightforward. Its pronounced Ven-ez-wayla.

Err, I meant pronouncing their beers. I guess I wasn't clear about that.
My bad.

(My step-mom/mom-in-law(?) is from Venezuela so I got that part down).

[Tiki Snakes]

Phone posting on low battery, so no quote dissecting.

Historical fiction;
I don't really know about it. I suspect that I might actually believe it to be, to some degree less worthy than fiction not so strongly based on existing events. It depends though. If you are simply recounting what happened, but with a romance sub-plot built in? That's not fan fiction, but neither is it particularly important culturally. A book examining a time period or series of events with serious intentions (rather than simply to avoid coming up with your own plot) could be more important, but I guess its more getting into uh, historical/educational/documentary kind of value?

Which is to say, how am I judging value? Nebulously and in poorly defined terms.

And again, when it comes to a lot of these "x was basically fanfiction of y" claims, I'd like to reiterate that far as my own definition goes, being an amateur work is inherantly part and parcel of being fan fiction. If you are talking about something published, then its really moving into being something else, some other kind of derivative fiction/parody/homage.

Which if it started out as fanfiction could get very confusingly muddy.

[Crimson Doom]

Why the unicorns will never rule Equestria.

So basically, all unicorns are Rarity?

Yeah. While it's looking like the Sun and Moon are not the usual celestial bodies we're accustomed to, I'd hope that the basic laws of thermodynamics still apply to pony world.

Eh. Once I know that the sun and moon don't work the way they ought to, I tend to discard most notions of their world being like ours. Besides, those rings are magic, they don't need to follow rules that the writers have not imposed on them.

Wow, that really captures him well. Heh, nice cutie mark. Okay, I accept your argument. Doof is the best worst villain. Almost makes me want to do a second Doof_x_Pony crossover comic.

...you did a first one?

...may I have a link, please?

[One Tin Soldier]

Err, I meant pronouncing their beers. I guess I wasn't clear about that.
My bad.

(My step-mom/mom-in-law(?) is from Venezuela so I got that part down).

Ah, yes. It probably could have been worded better.
Still though, Spanish might be the single easiest language to pronounce, once you know the rules. Because unlike English and many other languages, they don't break their own spelling rules.

[Crimson Doom]

Ah, yes. It probably could have been worded better.
Still though, Spanish might be the single easiest language to pronounce, once you know the rules. Because unlike English and many other languages, they don't break their own spelling rules.

Having taken two years of High School Spanish, I can agree with that. The conjugations were what killed me, but the pronunciation was relatively easy.

[Tectonic Robot]

Why the unicorns will never rule Equestria.

Pffffffff, that's a great comic.

[HamHam]

Curious, I find that part of its charm. But then, Thief of Time and Going Postal, which lampshade much the same issue in two different ways, are two of my favorite Discworld books.

Sure but if you are going to do it deliberately you need an at least internal justification for it and consistent logic.

Not have things like a train that is in one episode pulled by ponies and in another actually works.

[Crimson Doom]

Sure but if you are going to do it deliberately you need an at least internal justification for it and consistent logic.

Not have things like a train that is in one episode pulled by ponies and in another actually works.

Engine breakdown.

[erikun]

Daring Don't - Just... ew. Very terrible on hindsight, mostly relating to the shallow story, arc and all the unpleasant implication to the canon.

Ah, fun! I'd like to talk about the episode in the thread a bit, for a change in pace.
I've actually been thinking about it for awhile, so don't think that I'm picking on you individually.

I guess the most important point for me was the question why does Daring Do solves these problem by her own lonesome instead of relying on authorities. Or any other help for that matter. And the implication that Equestria is that lawless enough that permits supervillains like Azu-whatever he is, exists in the first place. (One would imagine Celestia might get called in for this.)

Interesting. What makes you think she doesn't, or hasn't? After all, Ahuizotl has managed to gather up 12 other golden rings. It's probably not unreasonable to assume that at least some of them were inside Equestria, guarded by Equestrian ponies and forewarned by Daring ahead of time. And yet, the only ring he hasn't taken was the one that Daring herself had. She's clearly doing a better job that the official authorities so far, and Daring already admits that she doesn't work well with others.

Local Equestrian authorities tend not to come off as looking that good anyways.

As for Celestia not getting involved, I'm fine with that. It fits the idea that Celestia rules a country because she's good at ruling a country, not because she has the ability to eradicate entire cities by dropping solar flares on them. In fact, canon pretty well confirms that Celestia isn't really that powerful anyway, instead needing to rely on magic artifacts or wise decisions to get things done. And, to be frank, that makes her a lot more interesting than the God-Empress that the fandom loves turning her into.

The fact that Daring Do actively writes these books based on her own adventures... well, I don't know. Leaves kinda a bad taste in my mouth? (A.K. Yearling? Really?) Hm. Then again, I have seen this plot point being used in a DD story I pre-read so maybe it wasn't so bad.

It's the plot point for Sherlock Holmes, so the idea of an author (or associate) putting adventures into print is literally older the television.

It also didn't help that it ruined the headcanon that Daring Do as described by Rainbow Dash in the hospital episode was a self-insert of herself into the story, and not the actual Daring Do. This might be a bigger factor than I thought it would.

Well, "Daring Do" from Read It an Weep is actually rather different from the Daring Do in Daring Don't. In the former, she really is very Rainbow Dash-like, pretty much just shrugging her shoulders and plowing ahead when the book's narrative doesn't say otherwise. (See: taking the Sapphire Stone) In the latter, she's much more different than Rainbow, more crass and inconsiderate.

[otakuryoga]

I wrote "Beer imported from countries known for making cars" on my Amazon wishlist.

mmmm, Sapporo is my favorite
and i am the Element of Booze....

[Rater202]

mmmm, Sapporo is my favorite
and i am the Element of Booze....

how exactly do Ponythreaders go about getting elements?

[Tectonic Robot]

You ask for 'em, and you get 'em. I'm the element of making new characters!

[Theoboldi]

I'm a twisted deviant that gets perverse pleasure from this. Its a form of entertainment for me. I'm not sure if I've been shocked in this conversation... but if it was it was a disingenuous position.

I don't expect success (I'm a heretic arguing with fan-atics here!) I'm just dropping some seeds while I munch on most of them for my own satisfaction.

So what you are essentially saying is that you are trolling?

Because I really can't read that any other way. Really can't. And that is very annoying to me, Soras, because I would dearly like to think that you are a person who has discussions for the sake of expanding his knowledge and to create fun not only for himself, but also other people. The reason I am getting from this response is one that I just don't like.

Also, after reading through this discussion-

*Stuff*

What he said. Only without the more patronising parts. But still, what he said. Because it's true. Wish I had been able to read through all this earlier to say it myself, though.

Goddamnit, Thanqol.

...you did a first one?

...may I have a link, please?

I second this notion.

how exactly do Ponythreaders go about getting elements?

Patience, and being noticeable in some way. The rest sorts itself out.

I really wish I was the element of something.

Maybe the element of ooze and abominations against all things natural? Naw, that's too long. I'll shorten it.

[Rater202]

You ask for 'em, and you get 'em. I'm the element of making new characters!

Is the "element of Making *yay* up as I go along" already taken?

[DigoDragon]

Phone posting on low battery, so no quote dissecting.

Phones are inherently low on battery.

...you did a first one?

...may I have a link, please?

Fluttershy, I know what we're going to do today! Eight pages in total & they should be interlinked.
This is probably one of my earliest pony works.

Still though, Spanish might be the single easiest language to pronounce, once you know the rules. Because unlike English and many other languages, they don't break their own spelling rules.

Having taken two years of High School Spanish, I can agree with that. The conjugations were what killed me, but the pronunciation was relatively easy.

Oh yes, I certainly agree. Sadly, despite my heritage as a Purto Rican, my Spanish is extremely rusty, especially with speaking it. I can somewhat understand it well enough to get by, but none of my local friends know Spanish so I'm kinda stuck without much practice.

...well, I suppose there's the Telemundo channel.

Engine breakdown.

That was my assumption too.

You ask for 'em, and you get 'em. I'm the element of making new characters!

I'm the element of Dungeon Mastering... which is mostly about puns, encounter theory, experience payouts, and being evil in a low-cost but fulfilling way. Helps to be short too.

Also, the D&D cartoon Dungeon Master was totally a brony.

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