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Thread: Ignorant question regarding DnD
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2019-07-02, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Ignorant question regarding DnD
Since literally all of my DnD knowledge comes from OotS in some form or another, this is a question I've had on my mind for a decade but never remembered it long enough to ask:
What does the verb "Turn" in "Turn Undead" mean? I assume it doesn't mean the same kind of "turn" as "turn around" or "turn into a vampire"; both of those meanings imply a reorientation of some variety (physical or metaphysical), while Redcloak describes Turn Undead as more of an attack involving magical energy (strip 459). So I assume that Turn Undead uses a more archaic definition of "turn" (similar to how "dis-" in "disgruntled" is an archaic meaning that means "amplify" rather than "negate")
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2019-07-02, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
It's an ability to paralyse, scare or even destroy undead. It isn't very clear where the expression comes from, but here's the theory it comes from burying people face down who were suspected to be vampires.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnUndead
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2019-07-02, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
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2019-07-02, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
"Turn" is a word with a lot of definitions. In "turn undead", it means "divert" or "cause to retreat". It probably should have been called "repel undead".
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2019-07-02, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
I believe it is meant in the sense of physically moving or redirecting something; compare to 'turn away' a person or using armor to 'turn a blade.' The most common result of using Turn Undead is to make them flee from you - it causes Undead to Turn (around/away.)
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2019-07-02, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
The original game as published in 1974 had the table under the name "Clerics vs. Undead Monsters." The expression "Turn" came from the undead being stated as "turned away," as tyckspoon describes.
At some point between the supplements and AD&D 1e, the expression of turning became the shorthand name, and eventually became the official one (like how "Fighting Men" became Fighters, "Magic-Users" became Wizards, etc).Last edited by Zakhara; 2019-07-02 at 04:40 PM.
Even beasts know when to give up.
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2019-07-02, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
Having first seen the phrase in TES, I refused to use it. Why would I want to make my character change into a zombie? Later, when I did attempt to use it as a last resort, I was sorely disappointed, followed by that ubiquitous "aha" and slight annoyance at the ambiguity.
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2019-07-02, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.
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2019-07-03, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
It's basically the scene in Dracula when they hold up the cross and the Vampire hisses and shrinks back like it is having a phobic reaction. This also comes up in Steven king's Dark Tower series with his Vampires, where the cross has to be backed by true belief to push them away.
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2019-07-05, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
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2019-07-05, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-05, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
Just a quick note:
In 3e D&D Evil Clerical "Turn Undead" powers was the reverse of a Good Cleric's: Instead of driving away (or destroying) Undead, it granted the Cleric the ability to command/control affected (no save) Undead.
This Ability was referred to as "Rebuke" Undead.
Which is why the Undead refused to obey the (I'm guessing: Necromancer Wizard/Death Cleric/Mystic Theorge) when she tried "commanding" them. And then they killed and ate each other, and the last one set itself on Fire (in the fireplace) in that strip. Because Redcloak's Turn power was already in control of them.
Also - undead could be damaged by Healing magic, and would gain HP from an Inflict spell.
/Longwinded ramblings.Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-05 at 11:46 PM.
My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
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2019-07-06, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
In first edition an evil cleric could turn paladins, forcing them to flee a combat (and then be too far away to return soon enough to be relevant to that combat).
Not that I am bitter or anything.
Oh and some accounts of 7th century Saint Botolph say he could dismiss spirits and expel devils with a wave of his hand. He was said to be able to see the future too, which depressed him.
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2019-07-06, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
In oD&D men and magic the matrix said:
Numbers are the score to match or exceed in order to turn away, rolled with two six-sided dice.
T = Monster turned away, up to two dice in number.
In AD&D Players Handbook the Cleric Class had a section:
Another important attribute of the cleric is the ability to turn away (or actually command into service) the undead and less powerful demons and devils.
(It also references a matrix that isn't actually in the PHB. )
So it's "turn away".Last edited by Tanarii; 2019-07-06 at 07:36 PM.
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2019-07-06, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
So, couldn't we avoid confusion by simply changing the name of the spell?
How about Repel Undead?
Scare Undead?
Just go ahead and add the word: Turn Away Undead?
Inflict Introspection To Convince The Undead To Rethink Their Whole Unlife?
Just about anything would help, really. I remember one player who thought it meant to make them spin in place, like to turn a doorknob. If that were the case, maybe Steer Undead? But then cattle ranchers might get worried.
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2019-07-06, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
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2019-07-06, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
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2019-07-07, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
I have used since at least 2,000
Class = thinking in terms of Career/Profession
They're still called by Name Individually (example: Fighter) and as "Classes" as a whole.
Class Level = RankYes, it sounds a little silly, but I figured that most people (both IRL and NPCs) would better understand (named? Not sure I want to try for 140 different ones, not counting Subclasses) neo-military type uses for separating the difference between "levels" (heh) of Experienced Adventurers.
Example: "I'm a 15th Rank Arcane Knight."
This immediately identifies to everyone:
Class and Subclass and how Powerful they are. Even semi-clueless NPCs will know that this EK is stronger than a Rank 12 of the same "profession".
Multiclassing can cause long-winded-ness.
Players are allowed to use shorthand.
"EK", "AT", "Swash", etc
Spell = TierAnd those are said together, so as to avoid OoC Play Tiers. I've seen some Groups use Circles for Levels instead.
"9th Circle Spells"
Buildings have Floors
and only Dungeons have Levels.Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-09 at 11:25 AM.
My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
No offense is intended by anything I post.*Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
*I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!
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2019-07-07, 06:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-07, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-07 at 09:34 AM.
My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
No offense is intended by anything I post.*Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
*I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!
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2019-07-07, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ignorant question regarding DnD
Actually, it may be convoluted, but I think they were aiming to remain somewhat consistent to previous editions so old players don't have to needlessly relearn the terms that mean the same thing they always did. Then you get each table struggling with some particular term transitions that aren't changing quickly enough, and not every table sticking on the same transitions, and now most every table is using their own unique dialect of game terms and new players have more trouble learning both the game's terms and it's synonymous varients.
Trying to fix the gloasary will take far more work than just rebranding certain terms.